Dzogchen, superior to Tantra. Really...?

[ilumairen]

In Dzogchen, 'no thought' is not a requirement whatsoever and the very act of 'no thought' requires an effort, which is an error.

 

The 'act of no thought' does not always require effort in my experience.

[ralis]

The 'act of no thought' does not always require effort in my experience.

 

Have you taken Dzogchen teachings?

[C T]

That is nothing more than an evasive answer and I doubt you have the facility to answer his honest query.

Since you claim mastery of Dzogchen with your profound prowess in sky gazing, you can perhaps help with his honest query 

 

Eh?

[ralis]

I honestly believe that without genuine compassion one can only get so far on any spiritual path. Why I believe this is not something I am currently willing to share here due to the antagonistic and arrogant nature of soo many posts. Why would someone share what they feel to be golden with someone who will only see it as dirt to be stepped upon?

 

Apech mentioned a book in a recent post regarding the abuse of the monastics in Tibet. So far this idea that one can be in the compassionate state and still treat an entire country as the monastics have in Tibet is hypocritical.

[ilumairen]

Have you taken Dzogchen teachings?

 

How does this question address my experience of 'no thought' being something that can occur without effort?

[ralis]

Since you claim mastery of Dzogchen with your profound prowess in sky gazing, you can perhaps help with his honest query 

 

Eh?

 

I will not entertain this kind of manipulation on your part. Wells asked you an honest question and so far that has not been forthcoming. To answer a question with a question is nothing more than dodging the issue.

[ilumairen]

Apech mentioned a book in a recent post regarding the abuse of the monastics in Tibet. So far this idea that one can be in the compassionate state and still treat an entire country as the monastics have in Tibet is hypocritical.

 

I'm very aware of the abuses perpetrated by innumerable people in power - not just Tibetan monastics. And I agree that those who abuse their power and status while preaching compassion are hypocritical.

 

[C T]

I will not entertain this kind of manipulation on your part. Wells asked you an honest question and so far that has not been forthcoming. To answer a question with a question is nothing more than dodging the issue.

Have you ever considered that to be free of the possibility of being manipulated, you might want to consider butting out of exchanges which does not concern you? Have you? Have you? 

[ralis]

I'm very aware of the abuses perpetrated by innumerable people in power - not just Tibetan monastics. And I agree that those who abuse their power and status while preaching compassion are hypocritical.

 

Exactly. Given that the subject of compassion has been discussed in the context of Dzogchen and by extension these teachings are disseminated by Tibetan Buddhists, their history contradicts their ideology.

[ralis]

Have you ever considered that to be free of the possibility of being manipulated, you might want to consider butting out of exchanges which does not concern you? Have you? Have you? 

 

This thread is free and open for discussion and I have every right to ask a question of you. It was you who directed the query to me.

Edited January 12, 2016 by ralis

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[gatito]

Bodhicitta by definition is the wish for enlightenment for the sake of all sentient beings by way of compassion in Buddhism.

 

bodhi -enlightened or awakened

citta- mind or heart

 

In Dzogchen, it is directly referred to as the awakened mind in the natural state.

 

If more discussion on bodhicitta is warranted, then I suggest an alternate thread.

 

I, personally, would appreciate it if someone would start such a thread.

 

Why not start it yourself ilumairen?

 

You could then moderate it using Owner Permissions in order to stop it from turning into the same  Pseudobuddhist shambles as this one.

Edited January 12, 2016 by gatito

[RigdzinTrinley]

I remembered my lama telling me about a western person coming to him to talk about his experience of meditation

 

He talked about a mind looking at a mind

 

Rinpoche listened to all that person had to say about how there is a mind looking at mind with great intensity

(Claiming to posses two minds in fact)

At the end Rinpoche just said "ya, ya" - he felt this persons mind was fixed on that belief and a discussion is not going to clear any confusion

 

I would just say exactly that about this thread

 

I have many things to say but one might as well run against a brick wall

 

I like my head

[RigdzinTrinley]

I remembered my lama telling me about a western person coming to him to talk about his experience of meditation

 

He talked about a mind looking at a mind

 

Rinpoche listened to all that person had to say about how there is a mind looking at mind with great intensity

(Claiming to posses two minds in fact)

At the end Rinpoche just said "ya, ya" - he felt this persons mind was fixed on that belief and a discussion is not going to clear any confusion

 

I would just say exactly that about this thread

 

I have many things to say but one might as well run against a brick wall

 

I like my head

 

EDIT: the double post was of course unintentional

Edited January 12, 2016 by RigdzinTrinley

[gatito]

I remembered my lama telling me about a western person coming to him to talk about his experience of meditation

 

He talked about a mind looking at a mind

 

Rinpoche listened to all that person had to say about how there is a mind looking at mind with great intensity

(Claiming to posses two minds in fact)

At the end Rinpoche just said "ya, ya" - he felt this persons mind was fixed on that belief and a discussion is not going to clear any confusion

 

I would just say exactly that about this thread

 

I have many things to say but one might as well run against a brick wall

 

I like my head

 

EDIT: the double post was of course unintentional

 

QFT&E

[RigdzinTrinley]

Dear gatito,

 

Could you translate that?

[gatito]

Quoted for truth and emphasis!

 

Just noticed that you'd double posted as well.

 

I love synchronicity.

Edited January 12, 2016 by gatito

[Apech]

I think another thread on distinguishing between what is Buddhism and what is Tibetan (or other) cultural hangover would be interesting.  I'll start one.

[ilumairen]

 

Why not start it yourself ilumairen?

 

You could then moderate it using Owner Permissions in order to stop it from turning into the same  Pseudobuddhist shambles as this one.

 

I have not been here long enough for owner permissions.

 

And while the persistent bickering here is a mild irritant, I'd prefer it if the 'big boys' (my term for the people with all the words) would actually learn to treat each other (and themselves) with a bit more respect.

[forestofclarity]

I should also point out that I haven't heard NN or any Dzogchen teacher say that Ngondro is worthless or anything other than beneficial. For example, eating healthy and working out is not essential, but it can make you strong and able. Ngondro is used in certain ways in his teaching. It really depends on the student, the student's needs and many other things. Different teachers have different approaches, and I don't see anything wrong with that. 

[ralis]

I should also point out that I haven't heard NN or any Dzogchen teacher say that Ngondro is worthless or anything other than beneficial. For example, eating healthy and working out is not essential, but it can make you strong and able. Ngondro is used in certain ways in his teaching. It really depends on the student, the student's needs and many other things. Different teachers have different approaches, and I don't see anything wrong with that. 

 

Norbu never said it was worthless, but if one hasn't been introduced to the 'natural state' first and foremost, then what good is it if one passes on without knowing one's nature.

[forestofclarity]

Per the Crystal and the Way of Light:

 

 

Their purpose is to develop the capacity of the individual where it is lacking, and it is absolutely correct and traditional that they are a required prerequisite for certain levels of tantric practice.

[ralis]

Their purpose is to develop the capacity of the individual where it is lacking, and it is absolutely correct and traditional that they are a required prerequisite for certain levels of tantric practice.

 

The quote is in regards to tantra. Not certain how this applies to my statement.

[forestofclarity]

Well, what do you mean by passes on? I thought you meant passes on like "passes by", but now I look it again, it can also mean "dies." So is the question what is the use of accumulating merit and developing capacity if one dies without recognizing one's true nature? Or ????

[ralis]

Well, what do you mean by passes on? I thought you meant passes on like "passes by", but now I look it again, it can also mean "dies." So is the question what is the use of accumulating merit and developing capacity if one dies without recognizing one's true nature? Or ????

 

I meant 'dies', 'passes away' etc.