Dzogchen, superior to Tantra. Really...?

[forestofclarity]

Well, he does tell the cautionary tale of the man who got sick and died while doing Ngondro... :

 

Then I told him, "Ngondro means preparation. You don't know how long you are going to live. If you just prepare and prepare but don't get or apply the main point then what benefit can you have? If you prepare a big banquet for many days but you never eat, what are you doing?"

 

 

 

I meant 'dies', 'passes away' etc.

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Jeff]

In Dzogchen, on the other hand, the method of self-liberation is taught right away, a method in which there is nothing to renounce or to transform. If one does not have sufficient capacity, however, this self-liberationtion will not bring real results. For this reason, in the Dzogchen teachings it is advised that one should know how to apply whatever kind of method is most adapted to the circumstances one finds oneself in, and most suited to one's level of capacity, until one has really acquired knowledge of the state of self-liberation. This is something the practitionertioner him or herself must be aware of.

 

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State 

[Jeff]

Harsh Words

 

The essence of the fourth verbal nonvirtue, harsh words, is talk that hurts another person. When divided, there are the following kinds.

 

1. Exposing someone’s faults in public

2. Hurting someone indirectly

3. Uttering in private something that will hurt another person

 

Tsogyal, the fire of harsh words burns the heart of both yourself and others. The weapon of harsh words kills the life force of liberation. This act is consummated by the four completing aspects, and has the following three types of results.

 

1. The result of ripening is to be reborn in the three lower realms.

2. The dominant result is that, even if you take rebirth as a human being, whatever you say will be offensive to others and you will always appear to irritate them.

3. The result corresponding to the cause is that you will be fond of speaking harsh words.

 

Tsogyal, if you abandon these actions you will attain the results of their opposites. The sentient beings of the dark age have no happiness.

 

padmasambhava guru Rinpoche (2013-12-01). Dakini Teachings (p. 42). Rangjung Yeshe Publications. 

[already]

There are 2 types of ngondro.

One is tantric and the other one is dzogchen specific.

If you want to develop understanding clarity and capacity after introduction you need to do dzogchen ngondro.

[Michael Sternbach]

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[dawei]

Re-opened.

 

See Hundun for the split out content.

 

Let's try to stay more on-topic.

[Apech]

There are 2 types of ngondro.

One is tantric and the other one is dzogchen specific.

If you want to develop understanding clarity and capacity after introduction you need to do dzogchen ngondro.

 

 

Apart from the inclusion of Cho they seem identical.

[already]

Apart from the inclusion of Cho they seem identical.

The tantric ngondro is composed of common and uncommon preliminaries.

The common are reflections on karma impermanence, human birth ,suffering and so on.

The uncommon are the famous prostrations to the three roots, bodhicitta, mandala, vajrasattva and guru yoga.

 

Apart from the preliminary reflections there are no similarities between dzogchen ngondro abd the tantric one.

In dzogchen one focuses on training the.mind through experiences of clarity sensation and emptiness then one continues by doing the rushans and semdzins which again are tottaly different.

[Apech]

The tantric ngondro is composed of common and uncommon preliminaries.

The common are reflections on karma impermanence, human birth ,suffering and so on.

The uncommon are the famous prostrations to the three roots, bodhicitta, mandala, vajrasattva and guru yoga.

 

Apart from the preliminary reflections there are no similarities between dzogchen ngondro abd the tantric one.

In dzogchen one focuses on training the.mind through experiences of clarity sensation and emptiness then one continues by doing the rushans and semdzins which again are tottaly different.

 

 

Ok I'm not very familiar with dzogchen but got my information from here http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php? title=Longchen_Nyingtik_Ng%C3%B6ndro

[RigdzinTrinley]

He (already) talks about the ngondros that are connected more directly to treckcho (rushens etc)

 

My lama said everything you do is ngondro till you really get the main point

 

Then even ngondro is the main point

 

JAYA GURU!!! sorry I'm in a silly mood

Edited January 14, 2016 by RigdzinTrinley

[already]

But lots of people practice guru deva dakini repetitions as part of the dzogchen curriculum

[already]

Dzogchen is very difficult to understand.If you think you do think again.

It takes years of clarifications and arduous study and practice.

In some texts it says that even advanced spiritual beings dont understand the nature of dzogchen.

So with that in mind please consider this fact when some very well read scholars start showering you with quotes from tantras,debating openly about deep dificult to grasp concepts found in dzogchen tantras and so on.

It would be a grave mistake to take these people's words as authoritative in matters concerning dzogchen even if they have titles to their names or write books.

[forestofclarity]

According to who?

 

Dzogchen is very difficult to understand.If you think you do think again.
It takes years of clarifications and arduous study and practice.
 

[ralis]

Dzogchen is very difficult to understand.If you think you do think again.

It takes years of clarifications and arduous study and practice.

In some texts it says that even advanced spiritual beings dont understand the nature of dzogchen.

So with that in mind please consider this fact when some very well read scholars start showering you with quotes from tantras,debating openly about deep dificult to grasp concepts found in dzogchen tantras and so on.

It would be a grave mistake to take these people's words as authoritative in matters concerning dzogchen even if they have titles to their names or write books.

 

Interesting. Do you understand it?

[already]

According to who?

Tantras

 

Interesting. Do you understand it?

I am more of an intelectual rather than a practitioner.So my understanding comes from that direction which of course is not complete.

 

In the context of this discussion lets take the example of Chatral Rinpoche who is considered one of the greatest contemporary dzogchen masters.

He refused to talk to even very knowledgeable established very well known teachers.Why is that ?

Because he considered it to be a waste of time and because he thought that they don't really understand dzogchen and their behaviour in the world is not representative of the true dzogchen view.

[ralis]

Tantras

 

I am more of an intelectual rather than a practitioner.So my understanding comes from that direction which of course is not complete.

 

In the context of this discussion lets take the example of Chatral Rinpoche who is considered one of the greatest contemporary dzogchen masters.

He refused to talk to even very knowledgeable established very well known teachers.Why is that ?

Because he considered it to be a waste of time and because he thought that they don't really understand dzogchen and their behaviour in the world is not representative of the true dzogchen view.

 

If you are not a practitioner, why the pretense?

[forestofclarity]

He refused to talk to even very knowledgeable established very well known teachers.Why is that ?

 

[RigdzinTrinley]

May the blue pancake decend on all of our heads equally

[3bob]

hey already,

 

An avatar like yours caught my eye in here..

 

Anyway, What I learned from a great master is that if a "great master" has designs of his own then is not a great master...

thus a great master will speak or not speak per the designs or way of Tao or Spirit.  (whether to or not to - a child, a fool, a saint, a dog, a criminal, a god, or any other type of being)

Edited January 20, 2016 by 3bob

[3bob]

RT, how about a blue berry pancake with real maple syrup?

[RigdzinTrinley]

I ate that only once on my life, there is no turning back after that...

 

But alas in bharat (mother india) no blue berry pancakes and real mable sirup to be found

[already]

hey already,

 

An avatar like yours caught my eye in here..

 

 

 

Anyway, What I learned from a great master is that if a "great master" has designs of his own then is not a great master...

thus a great master will speak or not speak per the designs or way of Tao or Spirit. (whether to or not to - a child, a fool, a saint, a dog, a criminal, a god, or any other type of being)

 

Hi,

 

I am not familiar with the way of tao or spirit so i wouldnt know what this all means.

My avatar is a joke and is directed at those who have limited views about dzogchen.

[3bob]

already, does your last post sound incongruent if you read it as an impartial observer?

[3bob]

Well RT - you may have to settle for mango or those gogi berries in your pancakes along with that super honey from the mountain bees of Nepal, seems those would do..  

Edited January 20, 2016 by 3bob