Dzogchen, superior to Tantra. Really...?

[Aetherous]

Why?

 

That's how Tibetan Buddhism works, so that you can make real progress. That's the whole point of this discussion on dzogchen...because it's the highest method in Buddhism, and talks about the highest attainment, rainbow body. In order to reach the highest, I think you'd want the highest method of doing so...the most effective, safest, quickest, etc. Perhaps (as I assert) the only way that actually works.

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[gatito]

My post was meant ironically.

It's called self-reflexion.

 

Correction:

 

pseudointellectual obscurations...

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[ralis]

They don't receive some intense transmission, but they are more capable to understand the teachings than someone who is just learning through books. The written word is very different from listening to someone talk in person, in any subject matter. Also, if there are empowerments and practices given, that does a lot toward helping us get it. By practicing afterward, you gain that personal experience (and thus, revelation) which is impossible by only learning through books. The books are there to supplement learning, not to be the primary source.

 

I had many of those teachings/transmissions and know exactly what I am talking about. Most of the Lama's have not learned English/German/French/Russian or any other language foreign to their own. That is a problem in and of itself even though a translation is happening. Some learn well from books and others verbal instruction works best. One methodology is not best for everyone. I have only met one Tibetan Lama who was very well educated, could converse in other languages and was able to discuss world affairs or any other subject.  http://dongakcholing.org/LamaRinchen.html

 

As for me, I am extremely visual and prefer that over long and boring lectures that have no visual input.

[Aetherous]

Sure.

 

So, how many official guru-student Dzogchen practitioners in the West have realized Rainbow Body so far...?

 

So you're saying that even for people with the best possible situation, it's near impossible. And you want to do it from books alone...

[Aetherous]

I had many of those teachings/transmissions and know exactly what I am talking about.

 

And you advocate for learning Buddhism only from books as an effective way?

 

I'm with you on being against the abuse of authority...but am very clear about the need for blessings in order for the mind to even begin to comprehend the written dharma.

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Jonesboy]

If you don't believe in transmissions then this discussion is a waste of time.

[ralis]

I believe Sarah Harding said that Lama as defined in their spiritual tradition, means 'divine mother'.

 

The real problem with this whole religious trip is that almost every Lama only receives a religious education. Humanities/critical thinking, math, science, art etc. receive little attention.

[gatito]

If you don't believe in transmissions then this discussion is a waste of time.

 

Gosh...!

 

You're improving. At least you got that half-right...

Edited January 6, 2016 by gatito

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[ralis]

And you advocate for learning Buddhism only from books as an effective way?

 

 

I did not state that whatsoever. I said that everyone has a different learning style. That is a fact! These ancient Middle Ages feudalistic venues with a teacher sitting above everyone on a throne are no longer appropriate or necessary.

 

 

I'm with you on being against the abuse of authority...but am very clear about the need for blessings in order for the mind to even begin to comprehend the written dharma.

 

Blessings? That implies some sort of ownership on their part which requires offerings/subservience etc. and your statement that blessings help one to understand the Dharma is an insult to any intelligent person. One can easily find that at a local Catholic church.

Edited January 6, 2016 by ralis

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

 

I am not a scholar nor am I a philosopher. I am a practitioner whom is starting to understand how all this fits together.

 

 

THE PRACTICE

OF DZOGCHEN IN THE ZHANG·ZHUNG TRADITION OF TIBET

 

Translations from the

 

Bonpo Dzogchen Practice Manual:

The Gyalwa Chaktri of Druchen Gyalwa Yungdrung, and

The Seven-fold Cycle of the Clear Light

 

The Dark Retreat Practice from The Zhang-zhung Nyan-gyud

 

Translated with Commentaries and Notes by John Myrdhin Reynolds

 

 

There is also reference to a special explanation of consciousness exiting the body in the case of a Thodgal practitioner. Even though the Rigpa pervades the entire living body, it is said to be concentrated in the hollow space within the physical heart, the Tsita. At death, it overflows through the translucent Kati channel connecting the heart with the eyes. It then exits the eyes, the right eye with the male and the left eye with the female.

 

...

 

Moreover, the primal awareness which is Rigpa has been primordially pure from the very beginning and has existed free from any root (or source). It is the Dharmakaya itself. However, due to the power of the linkage of the body and the mind, and because the powers of all the Kulas (or families) of divine forms come forth everywhere as primal cognitions (ye-shes), this is the Sambhogakaya. And this conduct as various different activities of the three gates (of body, speech, and mind) is the Nirmanakaya.

 

...

 

Moreover, in the middle of the physical heart, Rigpa (abides even at present) shining as Buddhahood and this is known as Primordial Buddhahood (ye sangs-rgyas-pa). In the hollow tube of the (kati) channel, the three energies are entwined without ever being separated. This is the Perfect Buddhahood (rdzogs snangs-rgyas-pa). And at the doorway of the lamp (of the eyes) it arises brilliantly and directly penetratingly everywhere without any obscurations. This is the Buddhahood becoming visibly manifest (mngon sangs-rgyas-pa).

 

 

 

 

From Ground, Path and Fruition, Tony Duff:

 

 

GROUND, PATH, AND FRUITION OF DZOGCHEN 119

 

The Fruition After many years of meditating, you could increase your wisdom to the point that you have manifested the wisdom in the ground in its entirety. Traditionally, this is said to be possible after twelve years in retreat. At that point, the ground itself has become the fruition.

 

The Relationship Between Ground, Path, and Fruition To give an example of how these three work together, there are two sheets of paper: one is on top of, and covering, the other. The sheet underneath is the ground, the sheet on top of that is the path, and the fruition is not yetvisible. For us at first, the ground is underneath and completely obscured, just as the bottom sheet of paper is completely obscured by the top sheet of paper. When you recognize the view it is like moving the top sheet of paper away just a little bit in which case you are seeing a portion of the ground. That is called the view of rigpa. Practising the path slowly reveals the ground underneath just as pulling the top sheet of paper away slowly reveals the bottom sheet. By continuing to practise the path, the ground is eventually revealed in its entirety, just as the bottom sheet of paper is completely revealed by continuing to remove the bottom sheet. At that point the ground itself has become the fruition.

 

 

 

Why do we say that the ground is underneath? Because it is obscured. And if we take the obscurations away, what is there? The ground is there. At this point where is the fruition? It too, is there with the ground. According to this example, the only difference between us and a buddha is the obscuration. All of us, including the Buddha, have the ground. However, we have not removed the obscurations whereas a buddha has discarded them. A buddha, having discarded the obscurations, has become the ground itself and so is enlightened. In that way, the removal of the obscurations is the only difference between us and a buddha. I would like to emphasize the point that to obtain the ground we do not have to manufacture or create anything what-soever. The Buddha himself also did not create the ground to obtain his enlightenment. The reason that no-one needs to manufacture enlightenment at all is because it exists already in all of us sentient beings.

 

The Terminology of Ground, Path, and Fruition When we are talking about ground, we give the essence of mind the names tathagatagarbha or alaya; when we are talking about path, we give it the name rigpa; and when we talk about the fruition, we give it the name dharmakaya. It is very important to understand this use of terminology. The thing being named is the same but you use a different term for it depending on whether you are talking about the ground, path, or fruition situation.

 

...

 

154 DZOGCHEN, THE GREAT COMPLETION

 

RIGPA CANNOT BE ENHANCED BUT CAN BE INCREASED

 

People often ask, "If you have had a glimpse of rigpa, is there a way to enhance that?" Each moment of rigpa is one moment of rigpa and those individual moments cannot be improved upon. However, it is possible to increase the number of moments recognized. The main way to do that is to do the practice of recognizing it again and again. Other than that there are a few methods that you can use. One way is to arouse very, very strong compassion for all of the sentient beings in samsara then to look at the essence of the compassion. Out of that a very full-blown rigpa can arise. Since compassion and rigpa are together in the same mind, like the front and back of a hand, if the compassion is very strong, then the rigpa also will be very vast. You do not need to abandon the compassion, rather, stay there with it but without grasping at it. Previously I spoke of appearance and emptiness unified; in this case I am talking about compassion and emptiness unified.

 

THOROUGH CUT PATH UPADEHA INSTRUCTIONS 155

And then another way is to arouse strong faith in the Bud-dhas and bodhisatvas and great devotion to your guru and then to look at that. However, these two things, compassion and devotion are difficult to arouse so there is another method—one which is much easier than these two. It is easy to get angry, it is easy to get jealous so, at those times, when there is very, very, strong anger or whatever, look right at the essence. You are al-most ready to kill somebody and then ... face that directly and look at it. I am not talking about role playing here; I am talking about real anger—you almost hit someone but if you look at the rigpa of it, then you will not fight them but will lose the anger. In all of those circumstances mentioned above, if you look at the energy of the mind, rigpa can come along in a very full-blown way.

 

HOW TO DEAL WITH THOUGHTS

There are two ways to approach rigpa meditation. You could rely on ghamatha first and then move onto to actual rigpa practice, or you could go directly to rigpa without any use of ghamatha practice. In ghamatha, a practice which has concepts, a thought comes, you recognize it, and then you bring the mind back to the object of the meditation. In the Thorough Cut practice of rigpa, when discursive thought comes, there are two ways to deal with it. The first one is to recognize and liberate it simulta-neously. The second is not to grasp at it when it does arise, in which case the thought becomes like a thief coming into an empty room. Discursive thought itself is only a problem when you make it into something special; if you just leave it alone by not grasping at it or fixating upon it, then it is just like a thief coming into an empty room.

 

156 DZOGCHEN, THE GREAT COMPLETION

 

Should you find yourself thoroughly involved with the thou-ght then cut it strongly with a short PHAT or a some similar method. In this case you break it and just stay there; if you break it and then try to come back after breaking it, you are creating something again. Some people are not sure whether they are distracted or not, the method for that is to break the meditation repeatedly. Meditate for one second then break it, meditate again for one second then break it again, and break, break, break. If you break this way a lot, the power of the fixation starts to get less and, even in that session, more mo-ments of rigpa can start to come again. In fact, rigpa is coming all the time. It is always there so there is nothing to do. There is no meditation to do because it is there all the time. There is no need of mantra, no need to do anything in particular, no need to visualize something; it is just there.

 

THE PRACTICE CALLED "PARTING SAMSARA AND NIRVANA"

There are gross thoughts which are easier to recognize but there can be an undercurrent of subtle thoughts which are harder to deal with. To deal with them, you need to know a little bit about some of the special methods that go with the Thorough Cut. One practice used a lot is called Parting Samara and Nirvana'. The background theory of the Thorough Cut is that, out of the pair sarpsara and nirvana, sarpsara is conceptual, dualistic mind and nirvana is non-dualistic wisdom, the wisdom which is free from grasping. In the single continuum of mind, there is

 

THOROUGH CUT PATH UPADESHA INSTRUCTIONS 157

both samsara and nirvana. It is like a hand—there is one hand but it has an inside and an outside. The inside and outside of a hand seem different but it is still one hand and in exactly the same way, samsara and nirvana occur within the one continuum of mind. The practice of the Thorough Cut is like taking a great big knife and just cutting the snake of solidified confusion. You take a machete to all the thoughts of the past and the future, to the whole complex of confusion about what is real and what is not, and just hack them down in one fell swoop. There is no visua-lization. Do not think about it. Just cut it. Drop it. It is very energetic. It is not like having a nice meditation.

 

There are many methods to help with this and one whole class of those methods is the one called Parting Samsara and Nirvana. In it, you get your body moving—active, walking, anything—and then stop and look, immediately, and in that moment completely cut through all of the thoughts—conceptual, intellectual, gross, subtle, whatever. You might walk arou-nd for several minutes then immediately you sit down and go straight—BAM!—into rigpa. If anything comes up, you just annihilate it. You can shake your body violently or you can shout or whatever; just work for four or five minutes and suddenly drop everything.

 

The point in this particular practice is to use a very sharp effort to separate samsara and nirvana. Having separated them you do not have to keep jolting yourself. In the west there are a lot of amusement parks with all sorts of roller-coaster rides and so on, which basically are for the purpose of scaring yourself. These are perfect for this sort of practice; use them for this sort of practice rather than ordinary enjoyment. Rigpa does not get scared by these things but all the normal mental events that we have can be scared away by this method, even the small ones. If

 

158 DZOGCHEN, THE GREAT COMPLETION

you use this method to arouse rigpa, the rigpa will stay and stay, and the small mental events will be scared off.

 

In terms of the traditional methods of parting samsara and nirvana, practitioners would go to the jungle, take off all their clothes, and just jump, jump, jump, shout, shout, shout, and do crazy things to cause a real breakdown. Or they would jump into icy water. By these methods you can intoxicate all the small states of mind and really stay in rigpa.

 

But just the actions are not enough; you do them to get to rigpa. If you do them and do not look at rigpa you are just creating suffering for yourself. In Dzogchen, you can intoxicate the thoughts so that they become completely drunk and then, if rigpa comes it cannot get drunk, so you just stay there in the rigpa. There are four circumstances when rigpa can come to light very easily: when you get intoxicated; at the time of dying; at the time of sleeping; and when you are making love. But these are not easy for normal people. These four circumstances are special in the sense that they have the quality that the small thoughts that we were talking about before cannot come but it is not easy to recognize rigpa within those circumstances.

 

 

And then, from

Practices from the Zhang-Zhung Nyan Gyud as transmitted orally by Tenzin Namdak

 

 

The Natural Clear Light is concentrated in the hollow cavity in our physical heart and then it overflows up the Kati channel or smooth white nerve that is like a hollow tube of crystal. Originating in the physical heart, it passes up the membrane of the brain and dividing into two, it terminates in the two eyeballs. This Kati channel and the eyeballs represent the third and fourth lamps, whereas the heart is the second lamp and the Natural Clear Light is the first. This inner light overflowing by way of the Kati, emerges through the two doorways of the eyeballs. These doorways at the end of the channel are shaped like the flowers of the flax plant (zar-ma). This is not the usual vision apparatus of our optic nerves and retina, etc.

 

Although visions come through the Kati channel and appear to manifest in front of us, they actually arise from our interior natural light. These visions are not perceived with the normal physical eye. This is inner vision, but it manifests to us as an external vision.

 

The visions usually come forth like the colors in a peacock's feather. If we remain in the dark retreat and our vision develops, the visions will emerge as visions of the realms of Clear Light. These visions are unlimited and countless, but for beginners they might appear as smokey, like the movement of smoke in the dark. Then after that there may arise signs of the earth element or of the air element. Then after that there may come mirages, or manifestations like fire-flies or like moonlight near at hand or dawn. Depending on our health and the condition of our channels, sometimes they may shine like sunlight. Or they may seem that everything has become absorbed in the sky. This represents the beginning of the arising of visions. When we perceive signs like smoke, for example, it means that our state is stable and we will have little problem settling down. Then our remaining in the Natural State will be very comfortable. But later thoughts may become rough like the wind, and thus we will feel agitated. But finally things will become clear. Our body may seem to be covered with a net. It does not matter whether we are having visions in the dark retreat or in sunlight practice, these visions have the same quality, although the base for training may differ. When the visions come, we should not let ourselves become excited. On the other hand, if they do not come, we should not feel depressed or frustrated. We remain in the Natural State.

 

The purpose of the dark retreat practice is to stabilize our Rigpa of the Natural State.

 

 

 

 

[gatito]

Doesn't seem to help much:

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/40023-dzogchen-superior-to-tantra-really/?p=665698

 

It's not helping you because you don't know how to listen.

 

In this respect, you're like 99.999% of humanity and that's why you get nowhere with any of this stuff.

 

Unfortunately, Buddhism (particularly the Tibetan version) is packed full of concepts that you need to transcend if you want direct first-hand knowledge.

Edited January 6, 2016 by gatito

[ralis]

If you don't believe in transmissions then this discussion is a waste of time.

 

If you feel a need for transmission then that is your business but to use it as an absolute doctrine of faith is a mistake. History is replete with such manipulations from authoritarians.

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[gatito]

http://thedaobums.com/topic/37912-my-first-thodgal-vision/

 

Exactly.

 

You missed the point entirely, just like you missed the point in my post about the decoupling of spelling and IQ in certain people..

 

You're hooked on experiences, albeit ones that are relatively unusual and you imagine that these sense perceptions are signs of "spiritual progress".

 

They are not.

[ralis]

One thing I must say is that in the Tibetan tradition they state that certain physical abnormalities are a hindrance due to karmic consequences and will prevent one from becoming realized. There is a reason that I am extremely visual, but will not state that fact on a public forum.

 

To me it is a cruel condemnation to exclude persons whom these Lama's have doomed to be unworthy!

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Aetherous]

The factual situation I just hinted to gives evidence to my theory that "empowernments", "direct contact with the guru", "sitting under the gaze of the guru", "getting personally direct introduction through the guru" etc. might possibly not be as necessary and important for attaining Rainbow Body than obtaining the necessary training instructions, understanding the obtained necessary training instructions thoroughly, and training extensively and intensively according to the thoroughly understood obtained necessary training instructions.

 

Perhaps that's so...but it all hinges on whether the instructions are actually understood. Thinking you get it, and actually getting it, can be far apart.

 

There is the written dharma, what's in books, what people say, etc...and the revelatory dharma. Without revelation, the mind can't truly grasp the written or even spoken dharma. What is Buddhism without any sort of realization? Just a big heap of useless words. The whole point is realization. Understanding the teaching depends on realizing what it's truly about...on personal experience of the essence of the teachings.

 

It's just like that chocolate metaphor I used earlier. A person who hasn't tasted chocolate yet can hear all sorts of explanations about what it's like. They might be very accurate. But once they taste it, their understanding of what chocolate is prior vs after tasting, are night and day.

 

So what brings revelation and realization and personal experience? Reading accurate instructions does not. Practicing those instructions might, if we understood them in the first place (which we didn't, because we didn't have the dharma of realization).

 

Consider that the Uttaratantra Shastra says that the dharma is "inconceivable" and "unfathomable". What does that mean? You think you might understand the instructions on dzogchen, written by a realized master...but do you really, if these are the two of the qualities of the dharma? That book was written by someone who was taught by Maitreya, the future Buddha...they are apparently the teachings of that future Buddha. What does logical thinking make of the fact that teachings were given by a Buddha that doesn't exist yet? Are there realized masters who claim that the Uttaratantra Shastra is just made up and phony?

 

You can only understand any of this stuff through the dharma of realization. How does that work? You need blessings. How to get blessings? Preliminaries work for it. How to get preliminaries? A teacher.

 

A teacher/guru can also give empowerments for the practices. And by listening to them, there is always some form of transmission...even if it's merely the transmission of what they're saying. It will be more accurate in meaning when you listen to them, versus if you read what they said after the fact...the mind will grasp what was truly being pointed at.

 

Books are great as a secondary source of learning, and they do unravel their secrets over time, especially with personal revelations.

 

Blessings? That implies some sort of ownership on their part which requires offerings/subservience etc. One can easily find that at a local Catholic church.

 

It's half true that it's about subservience...but not in the negative abuse of authority sense. It's actually about having the right kind of heart, which brings blessings that help us understand the teachings. You haven't heard of "blessings" in the Buddhist context before? "Rainbow Painting" is a good book to read, and has the word blessings in it 5 times. For someone who likes no authority above them, it can be considered as the blessings of the three jewels. But is it true that bodhisattvas don't help us at all? If someone is helping us when we request it, are we subservient to them, and are they abusing their authority? Or is it a good thing to be helped in ways that we can't grasp, so that we can begin to fathom the teachings?

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[gatito]

Before I make use of another quote from Tenzin Namdak's book to clearly disprove your claim,

I suggest to you to buy and to read it thoroughly (several times) yourself,

to come to a better understanding of the nature, the appearance etc. of the phenomenon of Thogal visions.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Bonpo-Dzogchen-Teachings-Tenzin-Namdak/dp/9994672053/

 

By all means go down that route Wells - if you've represented what Namdak claims accurately, you will find it to be a dead-end.

 

What I have gained from this thread is the removal that book from my reading list, so I thank you for that.

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Aetherous]

One thing I must say is that in the Tibetan tradition they state that certain physical abnormalities are a hindrance due to karmic consequences and will prevent one from becoming realized. There is a reason that I am extremely visual, but will not state that fact on a public forum.

 

To me it is a cruel condemnation to exclude persons whom these Lama's have doomed to be unworthy!

 

They might have greatly misinterpreted the teachings on the precious human body. I think the purpose of those teachings is just to say that the person is capable of learning because they have the senses. If a person had no sensory perception at all, they wouldn't be capable, so then it's not a 'precious' situation. But if you're still capable of learning in some fashion, then you're fine. Not that I'm an expert by far...