Dzogchen, superior to Tantra. Really...?

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[C T]

This is just your distorted karmic vision fooling you,

not realizing the gems you are offered.

Please return to sender. Its too valuable for me to accept. 

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[C T]

Well, what does that say about the capacities of the herds of today's guru boys which are driven through decades of all kinds of preliminaries...?

It says that the guru boys have the right tools, the right guidance and the right foundation, whereas you don't, but mistakenly assume you have no need for such.  

[Apech]

Two points of information to the thread.

 

1 ) ngondro - if this is being taught as a kind of collection of badges before higher teachings this is wrong.  I suspect none of the good teachers do this but a lot of students don't bother to ask and so think this is what they are doing - mostly cos of pride in being able to say 'I've completed 100,000 prostrations or whatever - which of course means absolutely nothing.

 

2 ) bodhicitta is the realisation of emptiness - the realisation of emptiness expresses through the lens of the relative world as compassion - so bodhicitta is directly related to the natural state which can be termed the union of emptiness and appearance/luminosity/clarity.  In the progressive sense of developing meditational experience many people have emptiness realisations first and so it is important.  Also the compassion it gives rise to is based on understanding and not sentiment.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Apech

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Apech]

You obviously mean after the decades of preliminaries...?

If not, then you lack even the capacity to understand the clear words of Master Norbu.

 

 

Last time I'm going to say this - it's not after ....

[C T]

Two points of information to the thread.

 

1 ) ngondro - if this is being taught as a kind of collection of badges before higher teachings this is wrong.  I suspect none of the good teachers do this but a lot of students don't bother to ask and so think this is what they are doing - mostly cos of pride in being able to say 'I've completed 100,000 prostrations or whatever - which of course means absolutely nothing.

 

2 ) bodhicitta is the realisation of emptiness - the realisation of emptiness expresses through the lens of the relative world as compassion - so bodhicitta is directly related to the natural state which can be termed the union of emptiness and appearance/luminosity/clarity.  In the progressive sense of developing meditational experience many people have emptiness realisations first and so it is important.  Also the compassion it gives rise to is based on understanding and not sentiment.

Ngondro is not a passport to the higher teachings. Ngondro (specifically the Longchen *Nyingtik) is in fact a condensation of the muiti-faceted higher teachings, and is a complete path in itself. It is meant for those who do not have the time to spend years studying under a geshe, or do not have access to the constant companionship of a wise spiritual friend. 

 

Dilgo Khyentse: "The cycle of the Longchen Nyingtik is composed of many sections. It includes the preliminary and main practices, the development and completion stages, and, most important, the practice of Ati Yoga, or Dzogchen. It thus constitutes a complete path to enlightenment."

 

Dilgo Khyentse: "When we take our first steps on the Path, we are not yet capable of helping others. To accomplish the good of others, we must first perfect ourselves, by purifying and transforming our minds. This is the aim of what we call the preliminary practices, which establish the foundations of all spiritual progress. You may feel like dispensing with these foundations in order to practice teachings that you think are more profound, but if you do so, you are building a palace on the surface of a frozen lake."

 

 

 

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Aetherous]

"You may feel like dispensing with these foundations in order to practice teachings that you think are more profound, but if you do so, you are building a palace on the surface of a frozen lake."

 

I'll take his words over Norbu's.

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Aetherous]

You then can do skype training sessions with him with the 10 hour workout video I'm preparing...

 

Btw, you are ignoring guru boy rules #1 and #2 with this statement.

guru boy rule #1 The guru is always right.

guru boy rule #2 If the guru is not right, see rule #1.

 

It's good to look into who Dilgo Khyentse was. If anyone could be said to be always right (which I don't think is possible) then it'd have probably been him.

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[forestofclarity]

Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche is going with Garab Dorje. YMMV.

 

 

I'll take his words over Norbu's.

Edited January 12, 2016 by forestofemptiness

[C T]

I'm going to make a 10 hour workout video out of this for CT and upload it to youtube!

Yep, I'm always helping if I can, it's called bodhicitta.

 

Eh, thats a laudable undertaking, Wells. It will help to purify some of your obscurations. Thumbs up! 

[Aetherous]

Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche is going with Garab Dorje. YMMV.

 

Well, he's speaking for him at least...

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Kar3n]

I'm going to make a 10 hour workout video out of this for CT and upload it to youtube!

Yep, I'm always helping if I can, it's called bodhicitta.

 

The condescending nature of this and many of your posts throughout this thread are far from the true nature of bodhicitta or the natural state. I wish you well in your endeavors and hope that some day you find the clarity to see that the way you treat others directly reflects how you are perceived in relation to what you claim you have gained spiritually.

 

Much love and well wishes.

[C T]

Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche is going with Garab Dorje. YMMV.

It was only a presumptive opening employed by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche to emphasise a point. We don't exactly know if that was what Garab Dorje said or didn't say. Any teacher can utter a similar thing, either in the affirmative or otherwise. Its not validated in other words. 

Edited January 12, 2016 by C T

[forestofclarity]

Well, NN certainly didn't invent the 3 statements of Garab Dorje. 

 

It was only a presumptive opening employed by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche to emphasise a point. We don't exactly know if that was what Garab Dorje said or didn't say. Any teacher can utter a similar thing, either in the affirmative or otherwise. Its not validated in other words. 

[ralis]

Ngondro is not a passport to the higher teachings. Ngondro (specifically the Longchen *Nyingtik) is in fact a condensation of the muiti-faceted higher teachings, and is a complete path in itself. It is meant for those who do not have the time to spend years studying under a geshe, or do not have access to the constant companionship of a wise spiritual friend. 

 

Dilgo Khyentse: "The cycle of the Longchen Nyingtik is composed of many sections. It includes the preliminary and main practices, the development and completion stages, and, most important, the practice of Ati Yoga, or Dzogchen. It thus constitutes a complete path to enlightenment."

 

Dilgo Khyentse: "When we take our first steps on the Path, we are not yet capable of helping others. To accomplish the good of others, we must first perfect ourselves, by purifying and transforming our minds. This is the aim of what we call the preliminary practices, which establish the foundations of all spiritual progress. You may feel like dispensing with these foundations in order to practice teachings that you think are more profound, but if you do so, you are building a palace on the surface of a frozen lake."

 

To purify and transform is not necessary in Dzogchen given that there is nothing to purify or transform.

[forestofclarity]

I would also point out that Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and his sons gave/give Direct Introduction without first requiring Ngondro, as does Lama Surya Das. 

[ilumairen]

Bodhicitta by definition is the wish for enlightenment for the sake of all sentient beings by way of compassion in Buddhism.

 

bodhi -enlightened or awakened 

citta- mind or heart

 

In Dzogchen, it is directly referred to as the awakened mind in the natural state.

 

 

If more discussion on bodhicitta is warranted, then I suggest an alternate thread.

 

I, personally, would appreciate it if someone would start such a thread.

[C T]

To purify and transform is not necessary in Dzogchen given that there is nothing to purify or transform.

This is true... after years of purification and transformation. To assume otherwise is delusional thinking. 

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells