Dzogchen, superior to Tantra. Really...?

[Aetherous]

I would also point out that Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and his sons gave/give Direct Introduction without first requiring Ngondro, as does Lama Surya Das. 

 

His book Rainbow Painting is great. There, a person can read his words, which don't suggest to skip ngondro...they emphasize its importance.

[C T]

I would also point out that Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and his sons gave/give Direct Introduction without first requiring Ngondro, as does Lama Surya Das. 

Speaking of Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, you may want to read his book Rainbow Painting. In it, he strongly advocates the importance of Ngondro. 

 

True though what you said about direct introduction. Ngondro is not a prerequisite, but more of a post-requisite as a means to stabilise what has been introduced, aka the View. Without this stabilising fulcrum, it can be difficult to maintain that which has been introduced, and some, if not many inductees (students) don't seem to know what to do after the fact, and have that look which seems to say, "Now what?" 

 

Its not as simple as simply sitting and staring at the sky, as some 'senior' practitioner here would like us to believe. 

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[C T]

 

His book Rainbow Painting is great. There, a person can read his words, which don't suggest to skip ngondro...they emphasize its importance.

Synched 

[C T]

Dzogchen foundations fact #1:

Dzogchen is about self-liberation, not transformation and not purification.

How can you hope to wash blood from your hands with even more blood?

Lets see how long you can remain in that super-sounding state without the back-up of the foundational practices. 

[ilumairen]

Dzogchen foundations fact #1:

Dzogchen is about self-liberation, not transformation and not purification.

How can you hope to wash blood from your hands with even more blood?

 

May I ask what self-liberation actually means to you?

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[C T]

Well, NN certainly didn't invent the 3 statements of Garab Dorje. 

I did not say he did. 

[ralis]

Speaking of Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, you may want to read his book Rainbow Painting. In it, he strongly advocates the importance of Ngondro. 

 

True though what you said about direct introduction. Ngondro is not a prerequisite, but more of a post-requisite as a means to stabilise what has been introduced, aka the View. Without this stabilising fulcrum, it can be difficult to maintain that which has been introduced, and some, if not many inductees (students) don't seem to know what to do after the fact, and have that look which seems to say, "Now what?" 

 

Its not as simple as simply sitting and staring at the sky, as some 'senior' practitioner here would like us to believe. 

 

Sky gazing is just staring at the sky? From that supposition, you obviously have no experience with it. Have you?

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[C T]

How do repping out prostrations and chanting mantras back-up Thogal practice?

Please explain in detail the logic of that claim of yours.

Thogal? I dont think you are mature enough for it. 

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[ralis]

Speaking of Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, you may want to read his book Rainbow Painting. In it, he strongly advocates the importance of Ngondro. 

 

True though what you said about direct introduction. Ngondro is not a prerequisite, but more of a post-requisite as a means to stabilise what has been introduced, aka the View. Without this stabilising fulcrum, it can be difficult to maintain that which has been introduced, and some, if not many inductees (students) don't seem to know what to do after the fact, and have that look which seems to say, "Now what?" 

 

Its not as simple as simply sitting and staring at the sky, as some 'senior' practitioner here would like us to believe. 

 

Sky gazing is in regards to the Longde series of Dzogchen. Longde gives one a direct understanding of spaciousness/space. Try it sometime when you are finished with your prostrations in a few decades.

Edited January 12, 2016 by ralis

[C T]

Sky gazing is just staring at the sky? From that supposition, you obviously have no experience with it. Have you?

Experience is an individual thing. Its obvious what yours have yielded based on the apparent lack of understanding of something as basic as the intertwined practices of Ngondro and its relevance to Dzogchen. 

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[C T]

You did not answer the question how repping out prostrations and chanting mantras allegedly back-up Thogal practice.

Please explain in detail the logic of that claim of yours.

Without these a practitioner can easily fall under the illusion of progress where none is forthcoming. 

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[ilumairen]

It's more about release than transformation.

 

Regarding self-liberation I suspect the words release and transformation could both be accurate descriptors of personal experience.

[C T]

This is just a claim, a statement of your personal belief,

but not an explanation, which would include a giving of a logical line of evidence and facts.

You are not ready for such evidence and facts, therefore it would be folly on my part to present them as it will not benefit you - in fact, it may even harm you more. 

[ralis]

Experience is an individual thing. Its obvious what yours have yielded based on the apparent lack of understanding of something as basic as the intertwined practices of Ngondro and its relevance to Dzogchen. 

 

Go ahead and prostrate to your hearts desire, but you have shown no evidence that Ngondro is necessary except that; "my guru says so".

[thetaoiseasy]

In all traditions it is the same: teachers give the student a form, and it's up to the student to transcend the form and see the formless. This concept has been described in multiple ways.   Becoming sick before being healed.  Using poison to create medicine. Using the unreal to support the real.  Using form to reach the formless.   Using the low the support the high. Using effort to reach non-effort. 

 

Naturally, a discerning student will ask:  Why would I want to get sick? Drink poison? Use the unreal? Use form? Use the low?  Use effort?  I'm not stupid. I want to get better, drink medicine, see the real, know the formless, and walk the highest path directly.  

 

Really, then, the question should be:   Is it possible to use the relative to reach something that is absolute? On the same vein, is it possible to reach the absolute directly?  

 

If you look at the traditions, you will see that they all describe achievement in stages, which are comparable.   In Buddhism, there are three realms:   the realm of desire, of form, and then of formlessness.   In Esoteric Buddhism, there is the realm of bliss, illumination, and then no-thought.   In Taoism, there is jing, chi, shen.   

 

The final stages of formlessness, no-thought, and shen all refer to the Natural State, the absolute.  So why the stages?  Can I just jump to the realm of formlessness, no-thought, and shen directly?   Why are these stupid monks chaining me to the lower realms of form and physical law?  Do they just lack the methods?

 

I would suggest that most cultivators in the past were not stupid, but highly motivated for achievement, and the hearts of the teachers are in the right place. I will admit that many teachers perhaps do not know why they are passing the form, but simply do so because of tradition and know what works.

 

I won't suggest any of my own conclusions, but mention briefly in passing.  One must see the emptiness and maintain the natural state at every level.  The realm of desire and form, though crude and considered unimportant, must be emptied out.  This is no different than saying that jing must be transformed to chi, before it it is to shen.  By offering them forms, teachers offer the students an opportunity to thoroughly dissolve the false dichotomy between higher and lower practices and between the absolute and relative. Furthermore, the forms are vehicles for transmission, which is no small thing.

Edited January 12, 2016 by thetaoiseasy

[ralis]

You are not ready for such evidence and facts, therefore it would be folly on my part to present them as it will not benefit you - in fact, it may even harm you more. 

 

That is nothing more than an evasive answer and I doubt you have the facility to answer his honest query.

[ilumairen]

Go ahead and prostrate to your hearts desire, but you have shown no evidence that Ngondro is necessary except that; "my guru says so".

 

I honestly believe that without genuine compassion one can only get so far on any spiritual path. Why I believe this is not something I am currently willing to share here due to the antagonistic and arrogant nature of soo many posts.

 

Why would someone share what they feel to be golden with someone who will only see it as dirt to be stepped upon?

[ralis]

The final stages of formlessness, no-thought, and shen all refer to the Natural State, the absolute.  So why the stages?  Can I just jump to the realm of formlessness, no-thought, and shen directly?   Why are these stupid monks chaining me to the lower realms of form and physical law?  Do they just lack the methods?

 

I

 

In Dzogchen, 'no thought' is not a requirement whatsoever and the very act of 'no thought' requires an effort, which is an error.