Heshang Gong commentary of DDJ

[dawei]

The Ho-Shang Kung Commentary on Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching

by Heshang Gong (Author), Lao Tzu (Author), Dan G. Reid (Translator)

 

Amazon link

 

 

Dan G. Reid (not to be confused with Daniel P. Reid, author of “The Tao of Health, Sex, and Longevity”).

 

 

I have only seen (and own) the one commentary of HSG on the DDJ...   Here is another

[Geof Nanto]

The Ho-Shang Kung Commentary on Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching

by Heshang Gong (Author), Lao Tzu (Author), Dan G. Reid (Translator)

 

Amazon link

 

 

I have only seen (and own) the one commentary of HSG on the DDJ...   Here is another

 

Neither your Amazon link or Heshang Gong link work for me. I got this message.....

 

Looking for something? 

We're sorry. The Web address you entered is not a functioning page on our site 

 

And this message...Your search "Heshang Gong" did not match any products.

 

However I found the book using Google and clicking on the Cached file dated 10 Dec 2015 for....

www.amazon.com.au/Ho-Shang-Kung-Commentary-Tzus-Ching.../B018...... Commentary on Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching eBook: Heshang Gong, Lao Tzu, Dan G. Reid: ... translation of the Tao Te Ching, and Ho-Shang Kung commentary.

 

But no luck on the current Amazon site.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Yueya

[dawei]

Neither your Amazon link or Heshang Gong link work for me. I got this message.....

 

Looking for something? 

We're sorry. The Web address you entered is not a functioning page on our site 

 

And this message...Your search "Heshang Gong" did not match any products.

 

However I found the book using Google and clicking on the Cached file dated 10 Dec 2015 for....

www.amazon.com.au/Ho-Shang-Kung-Commentary-Tzus-Ching.../B018...... Commentary on Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching eBook: Heshang Gong, Lao Tzu, Dan G. Reid: ... translation of the Tao Te Ching, and Ho-Shang Kung commentary.

 

But no luck on the current Amazon site.

 

thanks... I'll try to figure it out.

[dawei]

thanks... I'll try to figure it out.

 

Apparently the owner/author/translator can take the link down for edits and open it up again...  It should open again at some point.

 

Added; I see it now.

[Geof Nanto]

Yeah, it's there now. I browsed the preview and liked it so I tried to download it and got this message......

 

"This title is not currently available for purchase."

 

I will try again at a later date. 

[dawei]

Yeah, it's there now. I browsed the preview and liked it so I tried to download it and got this message......

 

"This title is not currently available for purchase."

 

I will try again at a later date. 

 

Yes, I got a message that the guy is taking it off and on for a few days to tweak the page... it should come back enabled.

[dawei]

Update:

 

You can purchase the paperback version here:
https://www.createspace.com/5906542
 

 

Also, you can read the intro and 2 chapters at Academia.org here.

 

 

 

Edit: I posted a discount is was a private offer... sorry... but if you had a chance to catch it, good for you

[Taoist Texts]

This translation has been created with the intention that it  will appeal to the casual sinologist, as well as those with an understanding of Daoist meditation, mysticism, and parlance.

well he deserves that $15.00 for trying.

[dawei]

From a Facebook entry on this work:

 

The Ho-Shang Kung Commentary on Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching

 

From the introduction to The Ho-Shang Kung Commentary on Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching, translated by Dan G. Reid:

 
"If Heshang Gong did, in fact, have access to these texts, it seems likely that he would have also discovered and read the Nei Ye, an early Daoist meditation text with many similarities to the Dao De Jing. Those who have studied the Nei Ye may perceive traces of its influence in Heshang Gong’s commentary on the Dao De Jing, though it may be that these similarities stemmed from a common oral tradition in which Heshang Gong was immersed."

Reading the proto-Daoist books in the Guan Zi, which include the Nei Ye, one is certain to find confirmation of Heshang Gong's assertion that Lao Zi's advice on government is, simultaneously, advice on self-cultivation. In many instances, the commentary in Thread of Dao shows this shared oral tradition as it runs through the Guan Zi, Dao De Jing, and Heshang Gong Commentary.

The writing of the Guan Zi is believed by many scholars to have preceded the complete Dao De Jing of 81 chapters, which they say was not compiled until closer to 200 BC. If we are to go by traditional history, and ascribe the Dao De Jing to Li Er (c. 550 BC) and the Guan Zi to Guan Zhong (720-645 BC), the Guan Zi would still precede the Dao De Jing by over a century.

As also shown in the commentary to Thread of Dao, the author(s) of the Dao De Jing seems to presuppose that some of its readership was aware of the teachings found in the Guan Zi. For this reason as well, it is of great help to read these texts and carry this cultural background into one's reading of the Dao De Jing.

 

 

I will be posting an interview with the author in the interview section.  

[Kara_mia]

Thanks a lot, will check interview section. 

[wandelaar]

Does the Ho-Shang Kung Commentary on Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching give the historically most important Neidan interpretation of the Tao Te Ching?

[Taoist Texts]

 

[OldDog]

Purchsed and read Reid's Ho-Shang Kung Commentary On Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching.

 

I was a bit disappointed. It seemed kind of a half-hearted effort and not particularly revealing of any new insights into TTC and its neidan connections.

 

Reid's The Thread of Dao is much more satisfying in terms of understanding broader implications of the DDJ. 

 

Imho

[wandelaar]

49 minutes ago, OldDog said:

Reid's The Thread of Dao is much more satisfying in terms of understanding broader implications of the DDJ.

 

Isn't it published as a physical book?

[OldDog]

You know, actually I think not ... at least Amazon was not carrying a physical copy at the time I purchased the Kindle version.

 

As a confession ... this morning I was scrambling around the house upset that I could not find my copy of The Thread of Dao, my mind fixed on looking up a qoute I had recalled. Even got my wife involved in the search. Then .... realized it was actually on my Kindle. 

 

I know how you feel about a physical copy. 

[Mudfoot]

On 2018-10-03 at 2:08 AM, Taoist Texts said:

 

For someone who really have no clue about chinese culture or history, is there a better interpretation of Chapter one of the Chuang tzu, about the big fish (Clearly trans) than going Nei Dan? 

[Taoist Texts]

You see, this is like that old joke where a drunk looks for his keys under the lamppost

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetlight_effect

similarly ppl fascinated with neidan look for it in the prominent texts.

 

As to the  interpretation, there is plenty of material

 this passage serves at least the following three functions.

First function: It signals that what Zhuangzi says is not to be taken at face value.  Zhuangzi emphatically does not do philosophy in the way Mozi, Aristotle, or Kant does philosophy, by laying out a series of statements presented as truth.  In fact, throughout the text Zhuangzi uses a wide variety of devices to dislodge the typical reader’s general assumption that philosophical texts are in the business of stating truths.  He makes seeming assertions, then raises objections or questions about those assertions, then fails to resolve those questions.  Much of the text is in quotation from people whose wisdom we might wonder about: a butcher, a speaking tree, a “madman”, a convicted criminal with an amputated foot, a hunchbacked woman, miscellaneous dubious sages with funny names, and especially “Confucius” who says a mix of things, some of which Zhuangzi would presumably reject and some seemingly closer to what Zhuangzi might accept.  Zhuangzi uses humor, parody, paradox, absurdity.  He explicitly contradicts himself.  He seems to say almost nothing with an entirely straight face.  The giant flying minnow-bird is only the start of this.

http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~eschwitz/SchwitzPapers/ZZDeath-150423.htm

 

 

 

Interpretive Issues

Because Chuang Tzu puts his positions in fantasy and parable, interpretions of his point are inherently subject to dispute. (Perhaps Chuang Tzu intended this outcome.) We can either attribute to him what actually follows from perspectival pluralism or attribute some familiar but invalid conclusion. Some interpreters read it as monism (entailing dogmatic skepticism--everyone is wrong), others as classic relativism (everyone is right!). Neither of these, however, follow from perspectivalism. For each, one may cite passages where the position is forumulated, but it is always left unclear whether the passages express Chuang Tzu's considered point of view or is merely one on which he is critically reflecting.

Some of Chuang Tzu's most memorable images and parables illustrate the interpretive impasse. Chuang Tzu tells us of an encounter between a Giant Sea Turtle and a frog in a well. It is natural to suggest the Sea Turtle represents some ultimate truth not accessible to the frog (as does the Chinese parable based on the story). However, in Chuang Tzu's account, the sea turtle cannot even get one flipper into the frog's well. He is as incapable of appreciating the frog's perspective as the frog is his. Similar analysis applies to the Great Bird and the small chicadee, the great fish etc. Chuang Tzu is the least likely thinker to take "great" and "small" as signs of absolute value.

https://philosophy.hku.hk/ch/zhuang.htm

 

 

[Mudfoot]

49 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

You see, this is like that old joke where a drunk looks for his keys under the lamppost

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetlight_effect

similarly ppl fascinated with neidan look for it in the prominent texts.

Does that include the I Ching? 

 

I can understand that a person interested in a spiritual practice is interested in follow that method back to the roots of the spiritual tradition you define yourself as a practitioner of. 

 

Doesn't Chan and Shaolin focus on Bodhidharma because he is the direct link to the Buddha? 

 

Wouldn't be as cool to be a part of a later indo-himalayan movement.... 

[Taoist Texts]

6 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

Does that include the I Ching? 

 

yes

6 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

I can understand that a person interested in a spiritual practice is interested in follow that method back to the roots of the spiritual tradition you define yourself as a practitioner of. 

i am all for it, thats why just try and keep folks from wild goose chases

6 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

Doesn't Chan and Shaolin focus on Bodhidharma because he is the direct link to the Buddha? 

yes

6 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

 

Wouldn't be as cool to be a part of a later indo-himalayan movement.... 

whats that?

[Mudfoot]

15 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

whats that?

Long story, starts with "a teacher said....". 

[Mig]

What's the difference of this commentary from Wang Bi commentary on the DDJ? and what about

HO-SHANG-KUng commENTARY
ON
LAO -TSE
TRANSLATED AND ANNOTATED
BY
EDUARD ERKES

What's the difference between the one from wangbi and he shangge?

 

[dawei]

On 5/11/2020 at 8:48 PM, Mig said:

What's the difference of this commentary from Wang Bi commentary on the DDJ? and what about

HO-SHANG-KUng commENTARY
ON
LAO -TSE
TRANSLATED AND ANNOTATED
BY
EDUARD ERKES

What's the difference between the one from wangbi and he shangge?

 

 

Heshang Gong (HSG) , 1 century CE and Wang Bi (WB), about 240 CE,  both have a version of the DDJ (characters) and a commentary.   There are other DDJ versions as well.   

 

See this thread:  https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/33887-time-table-of-the-tao-te-ching/

 

 

 

IMO, HSG saw the DDJ as more a cultivation text and WB saw it more as a civil/political text.  

 

HSG's is considered one of the earliest in the fullest sense to cover all chapters, although the legalist Hanfeizi has an earlier commentary with only some passages surviving and written in a more pragmatic application to the [Warring] times (250 BC). 

 

Erkes wrote his work of the HSG in 1945.   

Dan Reid wrote his work of HSG in 2015. 

 

Alan Chan wrote his work of HSG and WB in 1991.

Richard Bertschinger wrote his work of HSG and WB in 2010.

 

Richard John Lynn wrote a translation on WB commentary and notes in 1999.

Rudolf Wagner wrote a translation on WB commentary and notes in 2003 (part of a 3 part series).

 

Wagner has done extensive research on WB to show that much of what is there is based on HSG.  He further showed that WB notes seem to show that the version attributed to WB must of had some changes as the character version at times does not really agree with his notes.