Potent Systems

[Antares]

I will give you an example. Watch initial movements here. Their efficiency depends on the intent with which it is done

 

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by Antares

[freeform]

In my experience attention trumps intention. But there’s quite a lot of intention required in the beginning before it can be dropped.

 

Imagining anything (like tree roots growing out your feet) makes it impossible to develop attention.

 

The difference between qigong to callisthenics is in the quality of both mind and body. You must be able to transition to a very different engine of movement - away from contraction and levers (standard movement) and towards expansion and stretch through release .

Edited December 23, 2020 by freeform

[Antares]

45 minutes ago, freeform said:

Imagining anything (like tree roots growing out your feet) makes it impossible to develop attention.

 

Yes, imagination is the hindrance for energy flow. But intention differs from imagination. I don't agree with that guy on the video above that one needs to imagine colours of the energy. But intention is important. In China teachers don't explain movements, they just give it as it is. And when disceple has obtained enough qi level then they should realize what movement does. So this is a matter of energy and correct structure of the body and all of this implements attention of course. They say "Yi leads qi ". Yi can also be interpreted as 'intention'. Where your intention goes, your energy follows. And I can not agree that attention trumps intentions. Both of them should be implicated    

[XianGong]

Visualization is only useless in Daoist practices and in most of them, that deal with internal energy due to the idea that internal energy should be self-maintaining. It should be able to work without conscious control from your mind.

I believe visualization is a powerful tool used in practices far higher than Daoist arts.
A master that is capable of visualization is capable of the art of creation. If you develop visualization to the highest level you would be able to create Life. Materialize things out of thin air. Create a universe. Daoists don't teach anyone visualization because they are far off the level of creation and materialization.

 

54 minutes ago, Antares said:

Where your intention goes, your energy follows. And I can not agree that attention trumps intentions. Both of them should be implicated    

 

The intention is manual control, attention is semi-automatic control. The difference is intention is temporary, attention can become permanent. I am able to circulate MCO with my intention but it won't work permanently like freeform's, due to the lack of all Daoist work with this practice. If you put in 500hours with attention-based practice it may become a permanent ability that will not need any more work to sustain itself.

[Wilhelm]

1 hour ago, Antares said:

In China teachers don't explain movements, they just give it as it is.

 

That's interesting.  Good point, in that case!

 

1 hour ago, Antares said:

They say "Yi leads qi ". Yi can also be interpreted as 'intention'. Where your intention goes, your energy follows.

 

I've been wondering about this.  It's obviously a popular phrase in Qigong circles.  Is it really that simple, though?  The Qi goes wherever your intention is?  Isn't it way too damned stubborn and temperamental to follow your commands that easily, or is it just me?

[Antares]

28 minutes ago, XianGong said:

Visualization is only useless in Daoist practices and in most of them, that deal with internal energy due to the idea that internal energy should be self-maintaining. It should be able to work without conscious control from your mind.

I believe visualization is a powerful tool used in practices far higher than Daoist arts.

 

I disagree. Many (almost all) arts have lost the method of Ming from way back. So they involve a way much mind work now. The same is in qigong which is the product of 20th century. But in some qigong methods it can be used as a part of preparatory methods. So returning to the issue of the potent systems , I presume that only methods which are based on the work of preaheven qi can be consedered as Potent systems. All vizualization based methods involve postheaven qi circulation which can promote benefits but in many cases it only harms one's preheaven qi in long perspective. 

 

42 minutes ago, XianGong said:

I am able to circulate MCO with my intention but it won't work permanently like freeform's, due to the lack of all Daoist work with this practice.

 

This is postheaven qi circulation which will harm your preheaven qi if you use mind control and visualization.  

 

[freeform]

31 minutes ago, XianGong said:

internal energy should be self-maintaining. It should be able to work without conscious control from your mind.

Precisely. If you’re intending - it’s basically a form of ‘doing’... In Daoist practice we want to ‘do without doing’. 
 

I’ve used the analogy of digging a trench for water to flow down naturally, of its own accord - rather than carrying the water in buckets.

 

Intention is required in small degrees to dig the trench... attention is required to let the water flow.

 

Most people, however, misunderstand and instead ‘intend the water to move’... which in essence is like moving water in buckets. 
 

What’s more efficient in moving water - you or a river?

 

33 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

I've been wondering about this [yi leads the Qi]  It's obviously a popular phrase in Qigong circles.  Is it really that simple, though?  The Qi goes wherever your intention is?

It’s because most people misunderstand what Yi means in this context. Indeed it’s not that simple.

 

For instance you intend for Qi to sink to your Dantien - on the surface you’ve got it righ... but the Qi won’t sink (imaginary Qi might)... 

 

Because what’s going on below the surface is you’re using your mind to consciously direct something... therefore Qi will move up to the head to help you in this endeavour.

 

When people intend or imagine, the Qi will follow the trench you’ve created - go up to your head to help with your imagination or mental intention.

 

The way you actually sink the Qi is a lot more nuanced and involves release rather than mental direction.

 

1 hour ago, Antares said:

In China teachers don't explain movements, they just give it as it is.

It very much depends who the student is. If you’ve been accepted as an inner door student or disciple - there is a ton of instruction that actually enables these things to work...

[Antares]

40 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

I've been wondering about this.  It's obviously a popular phrase in Qigong circles.  Is it really that simple, though?  The Qi goes wherever your intention is?

 

It depends on the level of practice and the method of practising. In the beginning one uses will and control but on more advanced levels tje work of intention is involved. This is simple and not at the same time  

[Antares]

11 minutes ago, freeform said:

Precisely. If you’re intending - it’s basically a form of ‘doing’... In Daoist practice we want to ‘do without doing’. 
 

I’ve used the analogy of digging a trench for water to flow down naturally, of its own accord - rather than carrying the water in buckets.

 

Intention is required in small degrees to dig the trench... attention is required to let the water flow.

 

So you want to say that your shovel is moved for itself almost without intent  when you allow your attention working?   

It depends on a method is used. There can be spontaneous movements and in this case, yes, intention is used in a small degree, but in other methods we have certain method with certain movements. Try to do tai chi forms without intention. Are you on the level when these forms are doing you but  it is not you who does the movements without any intent?  

[Antares]

39 minutes ago, freeform said:

It very much depends who the student is. If you’ve been accepted as an inner door student or disciple - there is a ton of instruction that actually enables these things to work...

 

I mean that Chinese masters do not explain the energy flow and what the movements for. Of course, they will give correct instructions but without much explanations how movements effect energy 

[freeform]

59 minutes ago, Antares said:

So you want to say that your shovel is moved for itself almost without intent  when you allow your attention working?   

It depends on a method is used. There can be spontaneous movements and in this case, yes, intention is used in a small degree, but in other methods we have certain method with certain movements.

My response to this will depend on whether you really want to hear my perspective - or you feel this is more about who’s right and who’s wrong  

 

I don’t mind either way. I’ve already spoken at length about this before. What I’m sharing has rarely been talked about in public as far as I’m aware.

[Wilhelm]

1 hour ago, Antares said:

 

So you want to say that your shovel is moved for itself almost without intent  when you allow your attention working?   

It depends on a method is used. There can be spontaneous movements and in this case, yes, intention is used in a small degree, but in other methods we have certain method with certain movements. Try to do tai chi forms without intention. Are you on the level when these forms are doing you but  it is not you who does the movements without any intent?  

No, I'm not really at the stage of incorporating internal harmonies into Taiji yet.  

Shen harmonized with Yi

Yi harmonized with Qi

Qi harmonized with Li

 

I haven't been taught what this means yet, but it seems intention is a part of it!

 

But I think that's different from the sense I was using it in before, which wasn't related to movement but more like 'commanding' your Qi to do something.  It seems these are two different mechanisms, no?

10 minutes ago, freeform said:

I’ve already spoken at length about this before. What I’m sharing has rarely been talked about in public as far as I’m aware.

Bout time I figured out how this search function works, anyways

Edited December 23, 2020 by Wilhelm

[freeform]

4 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Bout time I figured out how this search function works, anyways

I need to get better at organising my writing... in-depth posts end up being added to random topics (I’m usually off-topic anyway - which doesn’t help)

 

5 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

It seems intention is a part of it!

Yeah - I think it’s the case that what Yi means is quite different to ‘intention’ as we use it in the west.
 

There’s another issue in that in some contexts, the meaning of Yi is indeed quite similar to the western meaning.

 

Contextuality is of paramount importance for learning the meaning of any of these key terms.

[Antares]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

My response to this will depend on whether you really want to hear my perspective - or you feel this is more about who’s right and who’s wrong

 

This discussion began from the query on "tai chi swings" movements or some similar movements if I got it right.  I just wonder how that happens that there is no intention involved in such movements or involved in small degree. May be I did not understand the query. 

What is the purpose of these exercices and how it works? Please disclose your point of view on this issue. 

How does it work with minimum intention? For example, you lift hands up and down. There is certain intention involved  in movements. 

Where does this command to move your hands come from?    

[freeform]

8 minutes ago, Antares said:

This discussion began from the query on "tai chi swings" movements or some similar movements if I got it right.  I just wonder how that happens that there is no intention involved in such movements or involved in small degree.

 

Ok - I didn't follow the full conversation

 

by 'tai chi swings' do you mean Song Shen Fa type movements?

 

Like these:

 

As with anything - when you're learning you'll use intention and all kinds of other 'training wheels' to learn the movement. Once the 'shape' of the movement is there and completely automatic (in the same way as riding a bike is automatic - you don't have to 'intend' to keep balance) - the idea is to move away from intention and towards attention (Ting) and release (Song)...

 

Then what I mean by 'minimal intention' is a period of exploration... you explore where your listening skill (Ting) is able to penetrate... you explore what layers you're able to release (Song) and so on.

 

The meaning of Yi is closer to 'quality of one's mind'... but most people assume it means directed/focused intent.

 

The example people would give of Yi follows Qi  is - focus your attention on your palm - keep it there for a couple of minutes and you'll start to feel all kinds of sensations... so people assume this is qi - and this is how you use Yi...

 

But what happens in that example is that by directing and focusing your mind on a small part of your body, you're enlivening the nerves in that area that start to pick up lots of sensations... this is not Qi in the way that Qi works in qigong (or other internal arts).

 

The meaning of Yi is closer to this example: you get angry - your Qi will move upwards... you become happy or excited - your qi will expand and scatter... angry and happy are the 'quality' of your mind... that quality is what 'instructs' the movement of Qi.

 

Except with qigong and taiji we're developing more subtle forms of Yi than the emotions... such as sinking... Sinking can only happen through release (song) - because if directed by intention, the qi won't sink - it will rise - because despite your intention - the quality of your mind is activation/engagement - not 'Song'.

 

Hope that helps explain what I mean (though I realise it probably does an awful job of it!)

 

And here's to me trying to be a little more efficient with my posting. Below is a link to a discussion about 'how qigong works' - I thought it was about time the truth of that was explained more clearly - instead of dumbed down like it usually is by teachers...

 

 

[Antares]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

by 'tai chi swings' do you mean Song Shen Fa type movements?

Not really, the query was more in re to preparatory "tai chi" movements. And I provided the video above with what  sort of movements I meant. But you provided quite internal method which differs from previous one. But anyhow even in this method there is a work of YI (intent).

And if one looks through his channel thoroughly they will see video explaining the work of YI. He talks more about Yi, but not about Ting and Song (watch 6:20)

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Except with qigong and taiji we're developing more subtle forms of Yi than the emotions... such as sinking... Sinking can only happen through release (song) - because if directed by intention, the qi won't sink - it will rise - because despite your intention - the quality of your mind is activation/engagement - not 'Song'.

 

Sinking requires work of your Yi. I would agree that one should not imagine roots - that would be wrong approach. But in general there should be work of Yi and that' what this guy says comparing Yi  with awareness. Awareness is not imagination. He says "then the commanding part is intention to move...that is Yi...just command every part of the movement. This is the training of the quality of your intention"   

 

9:05 "then when you want to move you command your movement, the chi follows that movement"

Edited December 23, 2020 by Antares

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Antares said:

He talks more about Yi, but not about Ting

My point was that the way most people understand ‘Yi follows Qi’ is incorrect. I explained that it’s because the term Yi is often misunderstood as a directed or focused intent.

 

I did not say there is no Yi involved in movement in taiji or in sinking.
 

In the video you posted, he talks about Ting (soaking of the awareness through the body) being the quality of YI... this is the major element missed by many. This is the ‘awareness’ aspect of Yi I was talking about. Yi happening at the cellular level - not the mental.  

 

Hope that clears things up.

 

Good video by the way.

[Wilhelm]

On 22/12/2020 at 12:19 PM, Antares said:

 

1 hour ago, Antares said:

 

Nevermind!  You weren't talking to me, my mistake.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Wilhelm

[Antares]

16 hours ago, freeform said:

In the video you posted, he talks about Ting (soaking of the awareness through the body) being the quality of YI... this is the major element missed by many. This is the ‘awareness’ aspect of Yi I was talking about. Yi happening at the cellular level - not the mental.  

 

Right. But this is entirely depends on a technics you do. So the phrase "attention (awareness) trumps intention" is not clear to me enough. 

I hope this is not political propaganda. Awareness is the part of intention and should not prevail it. Before you do anything there is a tiny intention coming from your Shen. I mentioned three aspects of qigong/neigong arts: 1)physical/ psychic 2) energetic 3) spiritual. 

So 3d one is playing huge role in it and is  what differs it from calisthenics. The "spiritual" part implicates Shen force. 

Shen force can be thought of as combination of Xin (heart/mind) and Yi (intention), as well as that part of us which controls both.

Ting is only part of it and should not prevail. There is Yi Quan where we can use Yi not as Ting only but for martial purposes as well. There are Yang and Yin aspects in it. And one of the goals is to find BALANCE.  

[freeform]

26 minutes ago, Antares said:

Right. But

There comes a time when the usefulness of a discussion runs its course.

 

All the best in your cultivation

[EmeraldHead]

On 12/21/2020 at 9:45 AM, Antares said:

Immediate boost of energy, pleasent feelings inside, good and deep sleep   

as expected they do develop energy in their system. have you started accumulating yuan chi and jing yet in their system? I was curious to ask someone from WuLiu about their system....not any techniques or to reveal anything, just something about the various substances. I work with and replenish prenatal stuff myself on a daily basis in my work. But theres something about yuan shen I cannot scan from the distance, see yet at my level so i was really curious to ask. Can I ask you bro? in private or public, whatever works for you guys.

[Antares]

As for your query whether I do yuan qi nourishing I say NO. One need to enter School as personal disciple for that and requirements for that are pretty harsh especially if you are not from Russia. But that what I have tried is quite powerful.   

[EmeraldHead]

6 hours ago, Antares said:

As for your query whether I do yuan qi nourishing I say NO. One need to enter School as personal disciple for that and requirements for that are pretty harsh especially if you are not from Russia. But that what I have tried is quite powerful.   

Understood. I see their representatives here haven't logged in a while

[Antares]

On 25.12.2020 at 8:14 PM, EmeraldHead said:

Understood. I see their representatives here haven't logged in a while

 

Well, they are quite busy people. Why to waste time for iddle talks? If you practice for 4 hours a day and also you need to work, spend time for transport, then your family, studying Dao and so on. If you want to know something email to DaoDe center and ask questions. Also "opendao" posted a lot of valuable info here. I personally would recomend to practise their Daogong system. This is very elegant  easy to do system which can benefit a lot. What are the benefits in terms of potency? What we can consider as Potency? 

Only alchemical methods are really powerful as well as methods which were referred to as Yangshengong in the Past. All contemporary qigong systems were originated from it but I believe they have been corrupted to a great extent. 

Daogong is based on alchemical principles and was created under the supervision of the Teacher Of Single Yang who is Patriarch of WuLiuPai. More over that they conduct the energy  of the Daoist School and this has power for itself. One may think that exercises seem to be quite simple and that it is not worth practising. But power is in its simplicity. This system balances the energy and cleansing the heart. And I believe it is very important for the contemporary person. As for potency I believe that it is not the issue how much energy one gains but it is more important NOT TO WASTE energy and to allow the energy to flow freely. So if you do not practise Neidan I would recommend practising Daogong. Also It speeds up progress in any other system one practises. It develops more sensitivity and power of shen. So I heard that if one stops practising it then the progress goes much slower in alchemy. Daogong helps to "listen" your energy, also it develops the "energy body" and ability to diagnose your state of mind and energy. Also it helps to eliminate negative energy what makes person more stable and balanced and promotes spiritual welness.  If one gains loads of energy but cant manage the balance then it might lead to deviations.     

 

[tao stillness]

The story about how Tai Chi Chih was created is not the same story that Justin Stone discloses on his DVD. Stone states that he taught Tai Chi and he found that most of his students were unable to perform Tai Chi in the way it has to be performed to get benefits. So he decided to change it around so it would be easier to learn and perform and he called this Tai Chi Chih. The story about it being created for an Emperor for his sexual prowess sounds like one of those typical historical myths from ancient China. To be sure about this, someone could always email any of Justin Stone's senior students to ask about that myth. Many of Stone's teachers I found have been doing Tai Chi Chih for over 30 years now or longer. It's good stuff. Very quickly and strongly the chi can be felt in the hands from some of the movements.