zhan zhuang posture

[HoldorFold]

I've got CK Chu's Neigong book and dvd. The first posture in the set is Embracing the Horse.

Every example of this posture I see online has the back straight, like a pole, which CK Chu says is actually incorrect as the lumbar is arched when your back appears straight. So what you're supposed to do is curve the back to achieve to iron out the arch in the lower back.

Here's a screenshot from the DVD for a student demonstrating Embracing the Horse as per Chu's Neigong style:

 

 

I'd be interested to see any other example of this style of this form of the posture elsewhere, so far haven't been able to find any.
 

[Silent Answers]

I doubt you will find any, because that is AWFUL posture.

 

We should stand naturally straight, pivoting the pelvis forward slightly. Weight should be equal between the stomach and back, with the majority of work being done by the muscles just under the butt cheeks. Once you find the sweet spot, you'll be able to hold it almost effortlessly.

[Chang]

I would have to agree that the posture shown leaves much to be desired.

 

Whilst it is true that leaning forward in that manner would straighten the lumbar region of the spine this would be better achieved in an upright posture. One would first sink the sacrum thereby causing the hips to rotate backwards. It is then a case of rotating the hips forwards again to lengthen the lumbar region whilst at the same time drawing back the chin to lengthen the cervical spine.

[voidisyinyang]

the secret of hominins standing erect since 3 mya is the curve as the Mingmen point whereas other primates have their spine straight so that their center of gravity is just from the spine straight to the ground. hominins have their center of gravity, because of the curve of the Mingmen, from the top of the head down through the pernineum , and therefore the alchemical secret energy.

 

I would say it is the qi that actually pulls the spine straight - you feel this - and the secret of how the Shaolin horse stance is done 2 hours straight, no moving, with thighs parallel to ground - since the body is filled with qi energy. It's literally an anti-gravity effect.

 

I have more details on my website.

[soaring crane]

I also see that as a pretty poor example of posture.

 

The "model" also has a blocked Dazhui/neck, which is really bad, imo. Not to mention those thumbs.

 

A "simple" technique to develop the open, flowing Mingmen is to bring the focus to the front of the body, to the muscles you can better control. Use the abdominal muscles to lift the pelvic bone, which will in turn cause the pelvis to tip to the rear, elongating the lumbar spine (the knees need to give way to this movement, and the kua need to be open). It's only an aide to develop a feel for the posture, but it's an effective one that you can forget once the real pelvic motion has become natural.

 

The thing I've learned to avoid is the completely static nature of the posture. You might want to try cycling, in harmony with the breath, between a rear-tilting and a completely natural "s-curve" pelvic position. It's a very sublte shift of energy, visually perhaps indiscernible, but you feel it. It's a little jing pump.

[Aetherous]

Well, it's neigong, so that poor posture probably has an internal purpose in that style.

[HoldorFold]

Yeah, you'd think it's a bad posture but practically it really seems to do the trick. It charges me up like nothing else. 

 

He really emphasizes not arching the lower back, so rounding the back is really important according to him. The only part which seems a bit dodgy when bent forward is the head position, but he says that you just lean forward like this until your legs get strong enough to round the lower back without having to lean all the way forward.

 

Here's a clip of him talking about this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=488p6689AWg

 

[Silent Answers]

Yeah, you'd think it's a bad posture but practically it really seems to do the trick. It charges me up like nothing else.

 

He really emphasizes not arching the lower back, so rounding the back is really important according to him. The only part which seems a bit dodgy when bent forward is the head position, but he says that you just lean forward like this until your legs get strong enough to round the lower back without having to lean all the way forward.

 

Here's a clip of him talking about this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=488p6689AWg

 

 

If it's working for you, then I don't want to discourage you....but, the legs will hardly get strengthened in this position as all of the upper body weight is being held up by the lower back and (hopefully) stomach muscles.

 

I'm not familiar with CK Chu, so I did a quick search that produced mostly just info from his personal site, and one comment on a message board from 2013:

 

"I am 47 with a family and started. At CK Chu school

The master recently passed on and now the school is run by his students all very good people

The style is not traditional yang as far as I can tell

One issue I have is it seems to be Aggravating my lower back"

 

Lower back pain is exactly what I'd expect as a result.

 

To me, it seems like something an already in shape person has invented for his lesser in shape students, but made the mistake of basing the technique on his own body and understanding of it.

 

So my advice is, if you like it, go for it....but if you find your back starting to ache, you know the first thing to drop.

[NotVoid]

Every teacher which I have seen demonstrate the stance demonstrated it with the back as is shown below. The main variation I have seen between teachers is in how the arms and hands are held, and how much bending of the knees there will be. Some will hold the arms as shown, and some with the arms a bit lower, and some with the hands in a bit closer, and that sort of thing. Some show a slight bending of the knees, and some with a bit more bending as is shown in this depiction. Just a slight bending of the knees is enough, in my experience, but bending the knees more as is shown will work the legs a bit more. The body however is  held as shown. 

 

[HoldorFold]

If it's working for you, then I don't want to discourage you....but, the legs will hardly get strengthened in this position as all of the upper body weight is being held up by the lower back and (hopefully) stomach muscles.

 

I'm not familiar with CK Chu, so I did a quick search that produced mostly just info from his personal site, and one comment on a message board from 2013:

 

"I am 47 with a family and started. At CK Chu school

The master recently passed on and now the school is run by his students all very good people

The style is not traditional yang as far as I can tell

One issue I have is it seems to be Aggravating my lower back"

 

Lower back pain is exactly what I'd expect as a result.

 

To me, it seems like something an already in shape person has invented for his lesser in shape students, but made the mistake of basing the technique on his own body and understanding of it.

 

So my advice is, if you like it, go for it....but if you find your back starting to ache, you know the first thing to drop.

 

Thanks, I'll keep an eye on my back to see if I get any issues with it. The red flag, according to Chu, is the knees, but if you follow his principles you don't strain them.

 

Yeah, there's not much out there about CK Chu and it was hard to find his stuff. I originally got interested in him by a thread TB user Encephalon made about using his methods here: http://thedaobums.com/topic/20035-void/  .... but he's since deleted the original post. It was basically about all the benefits he had from practicing Neigong, of which CK Chu's methods was the primary practice.

 

*By the way, it's your legs that are taking a pounding in this excersise. Your back and stomach are relaxed. Your stomach muscles must be completely relaxed, no tension. After a couple of minutes, your legs are shaking like nothing else but the rest of your body is at ease.

Edited December 22, 2015 by HoldorFold

[Gerard]

Here's a better resource for correct ZZ practice. Many training notes and tips.

 

That teacher is a disciple of Chen Xiaowang's second son: Chen Yingjun. So it's the real deal.

 

Enjoy!

[Arya]

hmm, why not just stand upright with chest out for standing meditation?

 

the zhan zhuang posture doesn't look so elegant. I don't like it.

[NotVoid]

 I originally got interested in him by a thread TB user Encephalon made about using his methods here: http://thedaobums.com/topic/20035-void/  .... but he's since deleted the original post. It was basically about all the benefits he had from practicing Neigong, of which CK Chu's methods was the primary practice.

 

I remember when Encephalon (previously known as Blasto) was posting his stuff here. I would take a lot of what he wrote here with several large grains of salt. From what I recall, he said he was practicing CK Chu's neigong set, and was posting about various weird problems he was having like extreme out of control heat in his arms and hands and that sort of thing, and some people were offering some suggestions to him based on what he said he was practicing and doing. After people had spent a fair bit of time trying to answer various questions from him and trying to help him based on what he said he was practicing, from what I recall, he some time later posted in one comment that he was actually practicing some of Gary Clyman's stuff at the time, although he had mentioned nothing about it previously.

 

The zhan zhuang stance shown by CK Chu looks like like quite a deviation from the standard stance used in zhan zhuang practce. That could potentially mess you up if practiced for any length of time that way. Practice it at your own risk.

[ebt111]

Yes, and it stands to reason that the closer to vertical the knee to foot + the closer to horizontal the knee to waist, then the more the upper body must  lean forward, in order not to fall backwards.

 

Bending the knee is good only for the purpose of bringing the "knee to waist" closer to the horizontal.

[soaring crane]

Yes, and it stands to reason that the closer to vertical the knee to foot + the closer to horizontal the knee to waist, then the more the upper body must  lean forward, in order not to fall backwards.

 

Bending the knee is good only for the purpose of bringing the "knee to waist" closer to the horizontal.

 

I've got away from the "bending the knee" stuff. I suggest loosening the knees, but keeping them well in the comfort zone. A method for finding the sweet spot is to first forcefully straighten/lock the knees, so that you feel the tension in the rear, then slowly release that tension. The knees will give way, will bend very slightly, and feel very spongy and relaxed. That's the feeling to shoot for during a standing session. And it's OK to do that little technique once in a while during a longer session, especially if you're developing knee pain. 

Edited December 27, 2015 by soaring crane

[ebt111]

A method for finding the sweet spot is to first forcefully straighten/lock the knees, so that you feel the tension in the rear, then slowly release that tension. The knees will give way, will bend very slightly, and feel very spongy and relaxed. 

 

I think I do that without even realizing.  I'm always moving around, trying to get more horizontal and lower, more than last time.

 

Come to think of it, sometimes its like the opposite of bending the knees.   Its like being on a motorcycle with feet on the very front pegs... or like being in a reclining chair as the legs are being lifted.  Or on a quadracep leg machine kicking out ----- but doing all this while staying at the same height or going lower. 

[mYTHmAKER]

Here's a better resource for correct ZZ practice. Many training notes and tips.

 

That teacher is a disciple of Chen Xiaowang's second son: Chen Yingjun. So it's the real deal.

 

Enjoy!

The weight distribution seems to be wrong in the diagram - should be 60% in the sitting leg and 40% in the straight leg. - usually this is 70 - 30