an example of "a religion of peace" sect

[3bob]

post from MSN about a sect of Islam:

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/video/other/execution-in-saudi-arabia-sparks-condemnation/vi-AA8rx8a

 

and possibly coming to your local area someday...

Edited December 27, 2015 by 3bob

[silent thunder]

Click bait no thanks

[3bob]

no bait just a recorded fact without hearsay and as spoken by those who decreed it...

 

Btw, "how many times can a man turn his and pretend he just doesn't see, the answer my friend is blowing in the wind, the answer is blowing in the wind"

Edited December 27, 2015 by 3bob

[johndoe2012]

Snuff videos no thanks.

 

By the way I no way tolerate Islam or any other idiotic fundamentalists like the Christians who kill people in planned parent hood clinics.

[ilumairen]

 

- Thich Nhat Hahn on what has been most difficult for him.

Edited December 27, 2015 by ilumairen

[Aetherous]

I'm fully opposed to sharia law and Islamism (not to be confused with individual people who happen to be raised as Muslim)...although in this case, how is it any different from capital punishment in the USA? A person was accused of murder, and was killed as a result. In the USA, it's done by injections after a lengthy process on death row, which is supposedly more humane...but the effect is the same!

I'm not personally opposed to capital punishment, although it can be tricky, considering that it requires someone to commit the act of killing the murderer. Because of this, it's not a clean way of administering justice.

[johndoe2012]

The good news is that Saudi Arabia is expected to be bankrupt in five years or so. So their financial support of wahabism will end soon.

[Taoist Texts]

 ...although in this case, how is it any different from capital punishment in the USA?  

Countries where in some cases a woman's testimony is worth half of that of a man:

• Algeria (in criminal cases)^[13]
• Bahrain (in Sharia courts)^[14]
• Egypt (in family courts)^[15]
• Iran (in most cases)^[16]
• Iraq (in some cases)^[17]
• Jordan (in Sharia courts)^[18]
• Kuwait (in family courts)^[19]
• Libya (in some cases)^[20]
• Morocco (in family cases)^[21]
• Palestine (in cases related to marriage, divorce and child custody)^[22]
• Qatar (in family law matters)^[23]
• Saudi Arabia^[24]

[Marblehead]

There is, in my mind, no way any religion can ever administer justice impartially.

[3bob]

....and of course there are different sects of Islam so they can not all be lumped together.... but this thread started out with a report about the variation used by the Saudi's - (which the op was edited to reflect)

 

Btw, here is some more info from wikipedia about this sect which has a lot of differences compared to the legal system that the US and other countries have:

 

"Main article: Legal system of Saudi Arabia

See also: Capital punishment in Saudi Arabia and Public executions in Saudi Arabia

 

Verses from the Quran. The Quran is the official constitution of the country and a primary source of law. Saudi Arabia is unique in enshrining a religious text as a political document.
The primary source of law is the Islamic Sharia derived from the teachings of the Qu'ran and the Sunnah (the traditions of the Prophet).  Saudi Arabia is unique among modern Muslim states in that Sharia is not codified and there is no system of judicial precedent, giving judges the power to use independent legal reasoning to make a decision. Saudi judges tend to follow the principles of the Hanbali school of jurisprudence (or fiqh) found in pre-modern texts and noted for its literalist interpretation of the Qu'ran and hadith. Because the judge is empowered to disregard previous judgments (either his own or of other judges) and may apply his personal interpretation of Sharia to any particular case, divergent judgement arise even in apparently identical cases, making predictability of legal interpretation difficult. The Sharia court system constitutes the basic judiciary of Saudi Arabia and its judges (qadi) and lawyers form part of the ulema, the country's Islamic scholars.

Royal decrees are the other main source of law; but are referred to as regulations rather than laws because they are subordinate to the Sharia. Royal decrees supplement Sharia in areas such as labor, commercial and corporate law. Additionally, traditional tribal law and custom remain significant. Extra-Sharia government tribunals usually handle disputes relating to specific royal decrees. Final appeal from both Sharia courts and government tribunals is to the King and all courts and tribunals follow Sharia rules of evidence and procedure.

 

The Saudi system of justice has been criticized for its "ultra-puritanical judges", who are often harsh in their sentencing, (with beheading for the crime of witchcraft), but also sometimes overly lenient, (for cases of rape or wife-beating), and slow, for example leaving thousands of abandoned women unable to secure a divorce. The system has also been criticized for being arcane, lacking in some of the safeguards of justice, and unable to deal with the modern world. In 2007, King Abdullah issued royal decrees reforming the judiciary and creating a new court system, and, in 2009, the King made a number of significant changes to the judiciary's personnel at the most senior level by bringing in a younger generation.

 

Deera Square, central Riyadh. Known locally as "Chop-chop square", it is the location of public beheadings. Capital and physical punishments imposed by Saudi courts, such as beheading, stoning (to death), amputation, crucifixion and lashing, as well as the sheer number of executions have been strongly criticized. The death penalty can be imposed for a wide range of offences including murder, rape, armed robbery, repeated drug use, apostasy, adultery, witchcraft and sorcery and can be carried out by beheading with a sword, stoning or firing squad, followed by crucifixion. The 345 reported executions between 2007 and 2010 were all carried out by public beheading. The last reported execution for sorcery took place in September 2014.

Although repeated theft can be punishable by amputation of the right hand, only one instance of judicial amputation was reported between 2007 and 2010. Homosexual acts are punishable by flogging or death. Atheism or "calling into question the fundamentals of the Islamic religion on which this country is based" is considered a terrorist crime. Lashings are a common form of punishment and are often imposed for offences against religion and public morality such as drinking alcohol and neglect of prayer and fasting obligations.

 

Retaliatory punishments, or Qisas, are practised: for instance, an eye can be surgically removed at the insistence of a victim who lost his own eye. Families of someone unlawfully killed can choose between demanding the death penalty or granting clemency in return for a payment of diyya (blood money), by the perpetrator.

 

Main article: Human rights in Saudi Arabia

 

In 2014, Saudi Arabian writer Raif Badawi was sentenced to 10 years in prison and 1000 lashes for insulting Islam.

Western-based organizations such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch condemn both the Saudi criminal justice system and its severe punishments. There are no jury trials in Saudi Arabia and courts observe few formalities. Human Rights Watch, in a 2008 report, noted that a criminal procedure code had been introduced for the first time in 2002, but it lacked some basic protections and, in any case, had been routinely ignored by judges. Those arrested are often not informed of the crime of which they are accused or given access to a lawyer and are subject to abusive treatment and torture if they do not confess. At trial, there is a presumption of guilt and the accused is often unable to examine witnesses and evidence or present a legal defense. Most trials are held in secret. An example of sentencing is that UK pensioner and cancer victim Karl Andree, aged 74, faces 360 lashes for home brewing alcohol. His family fears the punishment could kill him.

 

Saudi Arabia is widely accused of having one of the worst human rights records in the world. Human rights issues that have attracted strong criticism include the extremely disadvantaged position of women (see Women below), capital punishment for homosexuality, religious discrimination, the lack of religious freedom and the activities of the religious police (see Religion below). Between 1996 and 2000, Saudi Arabia acceded to four UN human rights conventions and, in 2004, the government approved the establishment of the National Society for Human Rights (NSHR), staffed by government employees, to monitor their implementation. To date, the activities of the NSHR have been limited and doubts remain over its neutrality and independence. Saudi Arabia remains one of the very few countries in the world not to accept the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights. In response to the continuing criticism of its human rights record, the Saudi government points to the special Islamic character of the country, and asserts that this justifies a different social and political order. The United States Commission on International Religious Freedom had unsuccessfully urged President Barack Obama to raise human rights concerns with King Abdullah on his March 2014 visit to the Kingdom especially the imprisonments of Sultan Hamid Marzooq al-Enezi, Saud Falih Awad al-Enezi, and Raif Badawi. Saudi Arabia also conducts dozens of executions each year, mainly for murder and drug smuggling, although there are people who have been executed for deserting Islam and crimes against the Faisal bin Musaid. The method of execution is normally beheading in public. For example, Ali Mohammed Baqir al-Nimr was arrested in 2012 when he was 17 years old for taking part in an anti-government protests in Saudi Arabia during the Arab Spring. In May 2014, Ali al-Nimr was sentenced to be publicly beheaded and crucified.

In 2013, the government deported thousands of non-Saudis, many of them who were working illegally in the country or had overstayed their visas. Many reports abound, of foreigner workers being tortured either by employers or others. This resulted in many basic services suffering from a lack of workers, as many Saudi Arabian citizens are not keen on working in blue collar jobs.

Saudi Arabia has a "Counter-Radicalization Program" the purpose of which is to "combat the spread and appeal of extremist ideologies among the general populous" and to "instill the true values of the Islamic faith, such as tolerance and moderation." This "tolerance and moderation" has been called into question by the Baltimore Sun, based on the reports from Amnesty International regarding Raif Badawi, and in the case of a man from Hafr al-Batin sentenced to death for rejecting Islam. In September 2015, Faisal bin Hassan Trad, Saudi Arabia's ambassador to the UN in Geneva, has been elected Chair of the United Nations Human Rights Council panel that appoints independent experts.

Edited December 27, 2015 by 3bob

[johndoe2012]

The treatment of women in Islam is bad.

 

It affects everybody on a unconcious level, even those you call tolerant muslims.

 

The religion of islam needs a big upgrade in terms of consciousness level, people are already working on it, me included.

[Astral Monk]

 

 

By the way I no way tolerate Islam or any other idiotic fundamentalists like the Christians who kill people in planned parent hood clinics.

But you tolerate 'medical professionals' that kill people inside planned parenthood clinics?

 

Well everyone has their biases I guess.

 

8)

[johndoe2012]

Isis is also funded by Saudi Arabia, hence the resemblance in ideology.

[johndoe2012]

But you tolerate 'medical professionals' that kill people inside planned parenthood clinics?

 

Well everyone has their biases I guess.

 

8)

Who says I tolerate that?

 

Off topic, unless you consider that religion also?

[Astral Monk]

Anyone who complains about western justice ought to go live in Saudi. You cant argue with religion, you can only destroy and remove it. Until that happens the world will continue to see abuses. We here in North America are quite lucky to have the system we do...not perfect, still corrupt for some, but a far cry from the bullshxt underpinning so many other nations, be it rabid religious or political extremism.

 

So are we going to bomb them back to the middle ages once the oil dries up or continue as a race to tolerate inhumanity in the name of fantasy? Either way blood with continue to be spilled. What other route is there..?

 

8)

[johndoe2012]

I don't like your first sentence because you imply Western systems cannot be improved, which is simply illogical.

 

You could fund tolerant Islam, by educating Western imams, which could isolate Saudi Arabia.

 

Stop military funding, which the US supplies currently.

 

Sanctions until they comply.

[Astral Monk]

I don't like your first sentence because you imply Western systems cannot be improved, which is simply illogical.

 

You could fund tolerant Islam, by educating Western imams, which could isolate Saudi Arabia.

 

Stop military funding, which the US supplies currently.

 

Sanctions until they comply.

Oh no, theres plenty of room for improvement, but on the relative scale of justice we here have little to complain about compared to most places in the world. At least here there is the appearance and expectation that we can evolve our judicial standards to meet the changing times, even utterly transform them into something else. We are not hamstrung by adherance to a religious text or code that in itself cannot be changed nor evolve (and in the case of Islam 'progression' or 'innovation' is codified as sin and is forbidden--hows THAT for an institutionalised status quo?).

 

8)

[3bob]

if we had conversations like these in Saudi Arabia and certain other places what it would mean - being whipped to bloody hell and then shipped out or prison and torture along with having our heads cut off? Should we be afraid to talk about such possibilities while also thinking we are being politically correct by remaining silent?

Edited December 28, 2015 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

I have never been accused of being politically correct.

[gatito]

Saudi Arabian Wahhabism is indeed seriously fucked-up, as is the redneck version of Christianity practiced by contemporary American Nazis.

 

A few years ago Afghanistan (now somewhere that no Westerner in their right mind would set foot) was on the hippy trail to the Himalayas and home to a more authentic form of Islam, which has now been wiped-out by the Taliban (as far as I'm aware).

 

See this 1974 documentary:-

 

 

Authentic Islam is indeed a religion of peace and I have Muslim friends who utterly condemn the atrocities practiced in the name of their religion and who now live in constant fear as a result of the way that they're viewed by radicalised Westerners (e.g. Donald Trump supporters) who are dancing to the tune that Daesh are playing... !

 

Edit to add:-

 

The group better known as ISIS, ISIL or the Islamic State reportedly hates “Daesh” so much that its brutes have threatened to cut out the tongue of anyone using it.

 

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/word-isis-doesn-article-1.2438861

Edited December 28, 2015 by gatito

[Aetherous]

Authentic Islam

 

There is not such a thing, aside from following its texts to the letter. But then we can't say...

 

is indeed a religion of peace

 

...because its texts instruct the followers to commit those very terrorist acts.

 

So perhaps it's more accurate to say: inauthentic Islam is a religion of peace, because it omits the verses of violence from its practice and ideology.

[dwai]

Isis is also funded by Saudi Arabia, hence the resemblance in ideology.

 

If you want to see what the future of ISIS is, take a look at Pakistan. Only thing is Pakistan was created out of a generally progressive, secular society exclusively based on religious identity. It is THE most prolific breeding ground of Islamic terrorism and ignorance today. 

[Astral Monk]

The general law in Islam is do not fight unless provoked. Otherwise, for the individual Muslim, life is pretty peaceful when following the religion. One is focussed on one's relationship to Allah through one's works and deeds (according to the path laid out in the Quran).

 

Islam is not naturally imperialistic. So we should be asking who is kicking the hornets nest?

 

The answer to 'terrorism' is for foreign western powers to stop mucking around in the political and economic affairs of other nations.

 

Terrorists have a cause rooted in very specific socio-political circumstances--they are not just following some vagua globalist agenda rooted in pure ideology (unless all these 'terrorist' acts in the west are actually false flags--then the true culprits are someone else). Eliminate the cause and bye-bye terrorism.

 

Trump asking what is going on is a joke. He knows damn well what the problem is. People are being played on both sides.

 

That being said, I still cant get behind Islam because its full expression is political in nature, and it simply doesnt fit in a truly libertarian humanist civilization. Unless, like the mormons, they get their own planet somewhere.

 

8)

[Aetherous]

The general law in Islam is do not fight unless provoked. Otherwise, for the individual Muslim, life is pretty peaceful when following the religion. One is focussed on one's relationship to Allah through one's works and deeds (according to the path laid out in the Quran).

 

Islam is not naturally imperialistic. So we should be asking who is kicking the hornets nest?

 

The answer to 'terrorism' is for foreign western powers to stop mucking around in the political and economic affairs of other nations.

 

What are your sources for that information? Not to be argumentative...but based on what I know it seems entirely untrue. One source for my perspective is this which I hyperlinked earlier. Also, the folowing video is another source for the perspective I adhere to, where Islam is naturally imperialistic, and is not merely a defensive response of oppressed people...

 

 

Furthermore, if terrorists only care about countries mucking around with other countries, then why was Paris such a target for them? If all other countries stopped messing around in their countries, the terrorist attacks against innocent civilians everywhere will soon come to a stop? I actually think they'd increase exponentially.

[Astral Monk]

What are your sources for that information?

...

Furthermore, if terrorists only care about countries mucking around with other countries, then why was Paris such a target for them? If all other countries stopped messing around in their countries, the terrorist attacks against innocent civilians everywhere will soon come to a stop? I actually think they'd increase exponentially.

Why? What would be the driving cause?

 

These things dont happen without a cause. Terrorism as we know it is the only route left for an overwhelmed party to combat a larger force that they cant actually fight in open warfare.

 

Why Paris? I dunno, maybe its most convenient, or maybe the powers behind it all feel that the French will be more inclined to start accepting totalitarianism in the name of security. I mean, my impression of French politics is not good.

 

As for sources, just look at the Quran. The basic message is peaceful slavery to God. Spreading the faith by the sword is not really a mandate.

 

But, have Muslim groups always adhered to this? Did Mohammed? I'm sure a case could be made against it. But the Quran doesnt implore Muslims to violently spread Islam, or really to proselytize at all. And, terrorism driven by religion isnt a proselytizing act meant to bring Islam to kaffir. Its a response to being under attack by foreign forces. Religion is a prop in that response. Even western powers arent trying to kill Islam, just to control resoucez and spread unrest in order to gain resouces. But somehow the fight becomes religious, partly because Islam the spirituality cant be divorced from Islam the political system.

 

I dont think 'religion of peace' is a good source of information on this. Better to read the nonsense in Islamic discussion forms.

 

8)