Got Ego?

[Patrick Brown]

Our natural inclination is change, change, change.

 

Who knows what sort of consciousness will arise next?

 

People eat animals.

 

People do not eat animals.

 

When we choose not to eat animals, consciousness becomes different than when we do.

 

When we realize we are the universe, we begin to learn what love really is.

 

Sometimes we hurt the ones we love. Often we hurt ourselves.

 

These are the same thing.

 

It is very hard to kill someone you love. Some say impossible. It's been a long time since I tried and I don't really remember.

 

I do know now that since I don't need to hurt my loved ones, I choose not to.

 

I love you.

 

Take care.

You have to be careful here as it isn't conciousness that is changing but mind which is why the 'Buddha mind' is said to be no mind. Conciousness is the constant undifferentiated 'causeless cause', 'mind' is the conduit/vehicle and 'the way' is the rhythm/dance.

 

In Buddhism (Tibetan I think) they teach the 'two truths' the first being the unchangeable absolute truth which can be seen as conciousness. The second truth is the ever changing yet relative truth which might be understood as mind being in harmony with the rhythm of the way/Tao (it also could be called the 'shadow dance' but it's not produced by the 'lesser light', of man's desires, but the light of truth as in Plato's Cave). The second truth, is of course prone to confusion, because people like to think they are clever and that they can outwit 'the way' which is a bit like trying to trick god. Each person must find their way and in so doing extract themselves from ego and find the spontaneity of Tao. This is what is meant by finding ones true nature as we are all different yet are joined/connected by the one dance.

 

So eternally the light of truth leads us in the never ending dance of life:

 

L = Love

I = In

F = Flower

E = Eternally

[de_paradise]

I think the word "ego" is a temporarily useful term, as Eckhart Tolle uses it often to describe the "mind made self". Its useful when you want to distance the habits, values, beliefs that we have that stand in the way of our enlightened state. So describing something as "only ego" is like devaluing the habit, value, belief etc. and showing that its not real, only mind play.

 

In the long term the agglomerative term "ego" is confusing and useless, because if you have already gotten past a certain level where you can be monitering your thoughts and actions , you need to get more detailed in what is what. Abidharma theory and the Skandhas provide this detailed model, and point the direction of what is purposeful to let go of. Its a model of the mind made for cultivators, tried and true. I find NLP and hypnosis could work hand in hand with the skanda model, and have practical techniques for actually acheiving of freeing the mind of the skandhas.

[Ben D]

I as a human being devote myself to religious practice that according to tradition will bring about the realization of a state called enlightenment. However I know that 'I' will never ever become enlightened and, though I confess that I once did hold out such hope. Don't misunderstand, enlightenment does exist, just that it is not the attribute of any mortal,...ever.

 

My present understanding is that it the 'I', the personal ego which in my case is known as Ben, is but a temporary non-enlightened mind that has developed a degree of self consciousness and seeks to experience more and learn more for as long a duration possible. That it is mortal, limited in knowledge, and will be subject to death is perhaps the main reason why I turned to religious teachings that held out a promise of the potential to attain to a state of enlightened perfection and immortality. I didn't realize at the time that one can't "have their cake and eat it too" and that the price of enlightened immortality is mortality.

 

Over the many years of study, devotion, ritual, fellowship, meditative practice, yoga practice, trials and tribulations, etc., it is now quite clear that the self conscious mortal life ego must be transcended in order to attain to the enlightened state. That glimpses of, and experiences of the awesome Presence behind appearances has occurred over time, has convinced me that there is definitely more to it then 'I' can ever comprehend. But it is also my understanding that these glimpses and experiences really amount to vanity if one were to continue to remember them, talk about them, and/or dwell on them, and will actually serve to retard progress.

 

Why?..because it is the error of the mind that presumes the dualistic existence of the experiencer and the experienced to be the normal state of reality when in fact it is maya. The dualistic conceptual mind needs to be transcended for the integrated oneness of enlightenment to be expressed fully. Oneness in it's infinite and eternal glory is not a 'house divided'.

 

Enlightenment is an attribute of the Oneness, and for enlightenment to be ascribed to any other is a debasement of the most sacred Truth.

[Ian]

One definition I've found helpful is that ego is there to defend the body, i.e. to recognise the body as self and thus to skip aside when boulders fall. And in that function it is benign.

 

Problems start when ego begins to recognise ideas, stories as self and to defend them instead. Which wouldn't happen if we kept our bodies clean of them.

 

That's all.

[emily]

One definition I've found helpful is that ego is there to defend the body, i.e. to recognise the body as self and thus to skip aside when boulders fall. And in that function it is benign.

 

Problems start when ego begins to recognise ideas, stories as self and to defend them instead. Which wouldn't happen if we kept our bodies clean of them.

 

That's all.

 

 

I think theres truth in this.

 

 

The thought popped into my head that the ego/mind whatever you want to call it is basically a log of information to keep the individual away from any perceived threat.

 

But as we live in a very over stimulated state of perpetual stress the mind keeps mulling over pointless issues. I think the perception of a fixed personality is a byproduct of this. We attatch ourselves to anything that makes us feel secure.

 

I prefer the analogy of living from love or fear. I think it leads to less confusion.

 

I honestly think the best spiritual practise is just to laugh at the absurdity of it all.

[Patrick Brown]

Edited July 14, 2008 by Patrick Brown

[chrisjswanson]

It seems to me:

 

There is that which is undivided and that which is divided. This is the tendency of opposites to support one another's existence.

 

However, the separation between the two can only exist within the realm of that which is divided.

 

Likewise within the undivided, division is not a valid concept.

 

Since only within the divided realm can both exist, I argue that the ultimate truth is undivided.

 

However we must come to terms with the fact that somehow perceived division can actually exist within what should seem to be indivisible.

 

I think this is where the so called Ego comes in. I will not claim to understand why but I suspect what we feel as an Ego is our way of grappling with this paradox existence.

 

Ego serves a purpose. However the functioning of Ego becomes out of harmony and leads to suffering. Through cultivation we are refining our Ego to be more in harmony. When it is perfectly in harmony, it may have the appearance of "dissolving". At this point one can accurately understand the paradox. (No I don't claim I get it)

 

I think this view explains two things: 1st why enlightened masters of the past have not simply sat down and stopped eating. And 2nd why so many spiritual traditions advise virtuous behavior and strengthening of character as a path to liberation.

 

This leads me to the vegetarian thing. I happen to not eat meat, and this is why: People seem to mostly live in the realm of separateness, thus I think to re balance ourself we have to get in touch with the undivided. We tend to like hard evidence. Through the practice of not doing harm to other life, we will get some hard evidence as follows: One might be skeptical, but if you stop smashing the bugs when you don't have to, you will notice that something in your life is better. On experiencing this first hand, one is more apt to realize that the reason for this is the interconnected nature of life, that when one hurts other life they hurt them self. This takes a step toward understanding the undivided, restoring balance.

 

peace + love

Chris

[Sunya]

hello

 

don't have time read all responses, at work right now

 

but I asked my teacher about the subject of ego-death and death of the physical body

 

what a bunch of crap you are filling your head with --- STOP READING

THAT NONSENCE...... Clearly ALL the Sages and Guru's are operating

just fine and the body does what needs be done in the world of duality....

Consciousness is Non-dual but it doesn't mean that one becomes blind -

deaf - nor foolish......

 

another said

 

there is no individuation when realization is awakened there is no me.

 

and another

Namaste Mikael.

 

body is still in duality so still obeys the laws of nature; awareness

is of no separation.

 

OM.

 

all of these teachers are realized, and none of us are. so lets stop conceptualizing what *might* happen

 

[mantis]

i love my ego

[Patrick Brown]

i love my ego

[Sunya]

 

Patrick ever read any Bernadette Roberts?

 

she's a Christian mystic.. a Carmelite nun, she attained the unitive state of "oneness with God" which is the endpoint of Christian mysticism ala St John of the Cross and St Teresa of Avila but 20 years later she experienced her Self disappearing until there pretty much was no Self, or ego, anymore. there was only God left. she writes about her experience, very interesting.

 

http://www.spiritualteachers.org/b_roberts_interview.htm

[Sahaj Nath]

wow, I'm so glad i recycled this thread! great responses, everyone. many beautiful responses, too! it warms my heart to read the experiences and perspectives of so many others.

 

 

 

 

all of these teachers are realized, and none of us are. so lets stop conceptualizing what *might* happen

 

 

if i were a follower of your chosen tradition, i might agree. however, i am not, and i don't.

 

let's just deal with the first statement for a moment:

 

what a bunch of crap you are filling your head with --- STOP READING

THAT NONSENCE...... Clearly ALL the Sages and Guru's are operating

just fine and the body does what needs be done in the world of duality....

Consciousness is Non-dual but it doesn't mean that one becomes blind -

deaf - nor foolish......

 

this may be true of all of whom we 'identify' as sages and gurus (and even THAT'S not completely true), but that's NOT the case for everyone who has been blown into complete and utter realization. a lot of those people are locked up, and/or drugged up. a lot of those people found themselves incapable of functioning within the limits of our sociocultural framework. it's just that people don't write books about THOSE folks.

 

 

but aside from that, dealing with the meta-argument at play in the (dare i say, ego-inflated) response...

 

this implied notion that intellect is the enemy misses the mark. scholars DO achieve realization. contemplatives DO achieve realization. it may be incompatible with the tradition, YOU'VE chosen, but it's certainly not universal. what of Tibetan monks who spend a couple of hours every day engaged in debate? are we to believe that NONE of them are or ever will be realized?

 

every tradition has it's dogma, and i don't fault your teachers for keeping to the proven path that has worked for them. that's what the traditions are for.

 

but with all due respect, they are not infallible. they don't speak for me OR my chosen path- the path of a wanderer.

 

i've been beyond the bliss and the generalized sense of well-being and unity. i've been to that place where my body didn't seem to exist, and the ideas that it ever did exist seemed absurd. and i discovered that my body wasn't trained well enough to function on auto-pilot. and i discovered this in a canyon, miles away from any other human being.

 

 

there are levels of awakening that are truly DEVASTATING. the LUCKY ones are the ones who received titles like sage or guru. so i find this topic to be quite relevant and worthwhile.

 

the last response you posted from your teachers is very true. the body IS still in the state of duality. but what it doesn't express is the training/discipline/healthy ego structure that may be necessary for that body to function effectively when the world AS WE PRESENTLY KNOW IT ceases to be.

 

that's all i'm sayin'.

[Seth Ananda]

Thanks Hun Dun, great thread. This is something I'll probably always have Ideas and Opinions about.

Some thoughts and questions are-

Gnosis or Silent Knowledge, the state where the minds thinking processes are off, yet one functions perfectly well in the world. When you feel hungry you eat but you don't think "Oh I'm hungry, I better eat" You Have a knowing Awareness of your responsibility's with out needing to think about them, but you still can if you want to as the mind is now your tool, not your master. I'm sure many here have experienced this in various ways.

 

The Universal Consciousness that everything rises and falls within is not stupid, it contains the everything and is therefore greater than it. Someone in No mind is as far from a vegitable as you can get.

 

What are the Ideas of people on weather The Individual Self ever really disappears? Some traditions state that it doesn't, but that it interfaces and becomes continuous with the universe.

Nissargadatta used to cry when a student he was friends with would leave.

If there is no truth to individuality then what is Authentic expression or the experience of being Called to do, follow or achieve something?

The most important word in the Tantras was Aham (I AM) and the work was to get the minds shit off the pure 'I Sense' and follow it back to its origin where the Astonishing realization lay we share the 'I Sense' with the Universe. (but this did not dissolve individuality, only the sense of limitation) This is the experience of Oneness. I Am that...

I AM seems to be the most or one of the most sacred phrases in many mystical traditions.

I look forward to hearing what people think, Thanks

Seth.

Sat Chit Anand!

[Sunya]

Hundun,

 

thanks for your response. I do agree with you.. so does Ken Wilber as he talks about being integrative and developing ourselves in different areas, spirituality being one of them, but also mind, body, relationships..

 

 

so I do agree that a healthy psyche is necessary to develop. to focus solely on attaining non-dual awareness and ignoring your social anxiety or lack of confidence is escapism.

 

in my own experience though, i've found that letting go of ego to be the best confidence booster ever i used to read and study social dynamics and did improve but now social interaction is a breeze since i recognize emotions for what they are.. usually

[Sahaj Nath]

yeah, he rocks.

 

Ken Wilber would have saved me a LOT of trouble a decade ago. i only recently discovered him, thanks to Trunk and Saul Williams.

 

[Sunya]

yeah, he rocks.

 

Ken Wilber would have saved me a LOT of trouble a decade ago. i only recently discovered him, thanks to Trunk and Saul Williams.

 

 

which book(s) have you read?

i only have the Essential Ken Wilber.. he has like 20.. i'd like to get another but not even sure where to start

[mantis]

cool chart mikaelz

[Sahaj Nath]

which book(s) have you read?

i only have the Essential Ken Wilber.. he has like 20.. i'd like to get another but not even sure where to start

 

 

i have the same book. it's the only one i own. i also own his Integral Life Practice kit. a worthwhile purchase, i think. i don't follow it per se, but in actuality i kind of do naturally. the lectures are great. Genpo Roshi's Big Mind process is really cool, and i go through it with some of my students periodically. those are easy days, when i can just make tea and pop in a video.

 

the shadow work is maybe the most significant, not because it's the most profound or powerful module, but because it tends to be the most neglected area of spiritual practitioners. highly realized people can have these ridiculous, out-of-character personality quirks or egoic hang-ups, and it's because meditation and deep spiritual study doesn't get at that stuff.

 

it's like $125 on amazon, which is less than what i paid for it, but i'm glad i bought it. it really lines up with so much of what i've had to come to on my own. and he took it all to another level.

 

yeah, Ken's Brain is priceless!

 

 

EDIT:

 

we talked about this a little bit on the phone: if you've chosen a tradition, it's important to trust it. that fundamental trust is a necessary shift inside of you that needs to happen. it's not about them, but about you. so i would say don't waste your energy creating greater conflict in yourself by getting into Ken Wilber or anyone else. stay the course. keep to your chosen foundation. it will serve you FAR MORE than any dabbling.

 

i'm a wanderer by nature, but even i need that fundamental trust in my path. i absolutely trust that it is my destiny to awaken permanently in this lifetime. i've believed that since before i had a vocabulary to put words to it. but if that wasn't an intrinsic part of me, i would be in a Buddhist monastery right now.

 

trust your tradition. not because it's perfect, but because you NEED to trust it.

 

 

 

Thanks Hun Dun, great thread. This is something I'll probably always have Ideas and Opinions about.

 

 

Hey Seth!

 

i do hope folks get around to responding to your post. i may get into it tomorrow, but i REALLY gotta get to bed. so we shall see what tomorrow brings.

 

part of me thinks that you're just being modest in this post for the sake of discussion. i think maybe you've been more places than this post suggests.

 

Edited July 15, 2008 by Hundun

[Ben D]

 

What are the Ideas of people on weather The Individual Self ever really disappears? Some traditions state that it doesn't, but that it interfaces and becomes continuous with the universe.

 

It is my understanding that the ego mind disappears at 'enlightenment',.. not in the sense of the mind concept of 'disappear'' but due the realization that what one thought oneself to be in fact was an illusion.

 

Ying and yang are relative attributes of the Tau, but the Tau remains ever unchanged even though these attributes continue their creative, harmonizing, and destructive movements forever.

 

When an individual attains to enlightenment, 'Oneness' is all there is, and that which before which was seen as separate and desirable is now internal,...and that which before seemed to be threatening and undesirable is also now internal.

 

All duality (symbolized by the ying ang yang of the Tau) are internal attributes of the Oneness.

So long as one would identify with the sense of having separate existence (ego), the individual is subject to the maya of dualism in all it's forms, good and evil, birth and death, me and not me, etc..

 

However Seth Ananda, it is my understanding that human concepts such as angels, buddhas, etc., do represent something real and if there is any residual individuality left after enlightenment, then one will know then.

[Sahaj Nath]

[gendao]

It is my understanding that the ego mind disappears at 'enlightenment',.. not in the sense of the mind concept of 'disappear'' but due the realization that what one thought oneself to be in fact was an illusion.

Enlightenment is not you awakening.

It is God awakening within you.

"You" is nothing but the veil

That creates the illusion of separation.

So when you let go of you...

PEEK-A-BOO!

God sees through!

[Ben D]

Hundun said,...

 

"If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha."

 

Yes that is also my understanding of this metaphor.

 

vortex said,...

 

Enlightenment is not you awakening.

It is God awakening within you.

"You" is nothing but the veil

That creates the illusion of separation.

So when you let go of you...

PEEK-A-BOO!

God sees through!

 

Well said!

[Sunya]

 

we talked about this a little bit on the phone: if you've chosen a tradition, it's important to trust it. that fundamental trust is a necessary shift inside of you that needs to happen. it's not about them, but about you. so i would say don't waste your energy creating greater conflict in yourself by getting into Ken Wilber or anyone else. stay the course. keep to your chosen foundation. it will serve you FAR MORE than any dabbling.

 

i'm a wanderer by nature, but even i need that fundamental trust in my path. i absolutely trust that it is my destiny to awaken permanently in this lifetime. i've believed that since before i had a vocabulary to put words to it. but if that wasn't an intrinsic part of me, i would be in a Buddhist monastery right now.

 

trust your tradition. not because it's perfect, but because you NEED to trust it.

Hey Seth!

 

 

indeeeed laroi, i get you. i'm a wanderer too, it's always been hard for me to cement myself in one tradition because deep down i've known that truth isn't limited to one viewpoint.. and also, like you, i've never bought any of that "enlightenment takes 2000 eons" dogma, i do believe that its attainable now.

 

so though being a wanderer, i also understand that sticking to one tradition is necessary, since some do have contradictions.. but i just love the diversity of having more than one tradition under my belt. i love buddhism, taoism, christian mysticism, sufism. i focus on the similarities, which are plenty. as for the contradictions.. these are pretty hard to find, and i think a deeper look reveals that these contradictions are only surface deep. though the mind can get hung up on these differences, deep down there is a knowing that it is futile.

 

but for the sake of not turning my beliefs into a New Age whirlwind.. i think i've most closely connected with Vedanta and Shivaism (reality as a non dual play of consciousness or Shiva), but also have a lot of Buddhism in me (the importance of compassion and right living). so i will focus more on that

Edited July 15, 2008 by mikaelz

[Patrick Brown]

[Ben D]

I've seen the oneness many times in my life and it blows my ego away but my ego returns because I figure it's a process like a gradual erosion of erroneous perceptions. Even with less ego I figure we still need one albeit a subordinate one.

 

Basically all I can say is what Buddha?

 

Am in general agreement with the gist of your good post but add this,....

 

No one can see the Oneness for that is an oxymoron, Oneness contains all things and nothing exists outside it.

 

The experience perhaps was the Oneness, and if so, for that moment, 'you' (ego) did not exist, for the separation between 'seer' and 'seen' no longer existed. When the ego consciousness repossesses the body, the discriminating 'I' in it's vanity claims to have experienced the Oneness.

 

Yes, it is my understanding too that it's a process of erosion of erroneous perceptions, but to finally bring closure to this process, ie. enlightenment, these erroneous perceptions must cease completely.

 

Sooner or later the choice between immortality and mortality is forced upon us, which is the meaning of the 'Jesus' metaphor of not being able to serve two masters continuously.

 

So true Patrick, a Buddha doesn't know anything, even that of being a Buddha,... pure undifferentiated Oneness.