Ghost immortality

[Taoist Texts]

 . Charlatans and liars. 

 

To continue about ghost immortals, we see the danger and we see those who tell us "it's ok, nothing to worry". Who to believe: charlatans or  

The insults and the rage is explained by the loss of an important sales tool.

 

They used this phrase about the terrible fate awaiting the ghost immortals to attack  all other schools and to drum up their seminar sales.

 

Now,  it is demonstrated that, due to their Chinese illiteracy, the phrase never meant anything scary, and a ghost immortal is just a regular ghost.

 

They can't use it anymore to attack; they are scared for their sales. Hence the insults and the rage. Sad really. But still ok, nothing to worry about.

[opendao]

The insults and the rage is explained by the loss of an important sales tool.

 

They used this phrase about the terrible fate awaiting the ghost immortals to attack  all other schools and to drum up their seminar sales.

 

Now,  it is demonstrated that, due to their Chinese illiteracy, the phrase never meant anything scary, and a ghost immortal is just a regular ghost.

 

They can't use it anymore to attack; they are scared for their sales. Hence the insults and the rage. Sad really. But still ok, nothing to worry about.

 

as usual, all "arguments" by TT in 1 silly paragraph. without even any attempt to think logically. New year, same lies. No probs. RIP 

[shanlung]

Idiotic Taoist inclined to dust off Ouija board and ask the spirits around to log into daobums and let them hear straight from the horses mouths.

 

 

They told me they declined to join in.  Saying donkeys never listen to horses anyway whether from the mouth or the other end.

 

They also said they feared Putin and some Russian oligarchy mafia might get angry with them sending shamanic vibs to destroy their WA.

 

After all , didnt we first see a Russian with pointy elbow claiming mantle of Wang Chong Yang and that he is Grandmaster Generalissimo of Quanzhen School.

 

Too soon after that, his pals in Russia (or maybe pointy elbow himself) decided mantle of WCY underlings such as  Ma Yu (馬鈺) and  遇仙派  is also the sole property of Russian and that private road to promised land will be given on suitable donations to charity of their choice

 

 

Besides, they say since all this is destined to go to the Primordial Chaos between Heaven and Earth eventually , sooner or later, they rather do their thing and advise me to continue to pop my Tiger and munch on my chips and to end my unwarranted tripping and stepping on toes here.

 

 

Idiotic Taoist content to drink when thirsty and eat when hungry

Edited January 1, 2016 by shanlung

[opendao]

They told me they declined to join in.  Saying donkeys never listen to horses anyway whether from the mouth or the other end.

 

They also said they feared Putin and some Russian oligarchy mafia might get angry with them sending shamanic vibs to destroy their WA.

 

After all , didnt we first see a Russian with pointy elbow claiming mantle of Wang Chong Yang and that he is Grandmaster Generalissimo of Quanzhen School.

 

Too soon after that, his pals in Russia (or maybe pointy elbow himself) decided mantle of WCY underlings such as  Ma Yu (馬鈺) and  遇仙派  is also the sole property of Russian and that private road to promised land will be given on suitable donations to charity of their choice

 

I got your kinda humour but please don't mess Zhen Dao ("pointy elbow" Vitalii) with 遇仙派 (Vitalii didn't use such name, maybe because he didn't know about it) - the current patriarch of Yu Xian Pai, who is not Russian, and not a Putin agent afaik, he can be very surprise of such ignorance and attempts to simply idiotically do claims after reading wuxia forums... Though knowing human nature, there is little surprise in such behaviour.

 

If you (or your funny friends from "ouija") have any further questions about "private road to promised land", then it's better not to make false assumptions, but ask questions first. Because even self-proclaimed Quanzhen "knowledgeable masters" like Vitalii or Taoist Texts know that it's bad to lie. So try not to follow their steps.

 

Vitalii is selling tea now, just FYI, it seems to be the only thing you really care about...

[Taoist Texts]

  Taoist Texts know that it's bad to lie.  

Like i always said these guys have no clue to a true tradition. No, I and Yamamoto do not know that it is bad to lie.

 

Yamamoto Jin'emon always said to his retainers, "Go ahead and gamble and lie. A person who will not tell you seven lies within a hundred yards is useless as a man. "

 

Hagakure | The Way of the Samurai  1716 | Yamamoto Tsunetomo

 

 

 

as usual, all "arguments" by TT in 1 silly  ... same lies. No probs. RIP 

RIP? Is this how the initiated daoists wish death on their opponents? Talk about the 'yin-beings in human bodies'.

[Wu Ming Jen]

Phantom-immortal or ghost-immortal - Gui Xian ( 鬼仙 )
Gui Xian. Literally - the immortal among devils or the immortal devil. It was believed that this achievement is a characteristic of shamanic practices, the late Chan Buddhism, the pseudo-Taoism, different meditations. Withdrawal of Yin spirit in a state of no breath and palpitation. The practitioner remains mortal, despite the practice of spirit withdrawal and possible capabilities. Moreover, he may not be reborn after his death and stay a ghost forever. This was not practiced in Taoism, it was forbidden (meaning the serious study, not just jingzuo).

[Orion]

The benefit to being a ghost immortal is that you can consciously continue your learning in the afterlife for however long you want, before reincarnating. The claim that they can't reincarnate or eventually return to the Dao is dubious, I think to scare people of other schoools. They have all eternity to become enlightened versus people stuck in the reincarnation cycle.

 

Imagine if you had 500 years in non-corporeal form, with all your memories in tact, to practice? You'd get pretty good. Then all you'd have to do is rebirth yourself into a human body and that single lifetime would be rapidly accelerated. 

 

Also... I've heard many tales about the supposed dangers of astral travel. I've had OBEs my whole life and I seriously doubt the claim that an entity can takeover your body while you're gone. When you encounter something freaky on the astral, you either raise your energy state and ascend to a higher plane where it can't follow you, or you default back to your body.

 

Things can definitely attack you or latch onto your body and influence you, but outright possess you and replace your consciousness with theirs? Doubtful. There are very specific conditions for possession to take place and astral travel doesn't qualify. The astral realm isn't really where any of the heavy hitters live.

[Marblehead]

I hope we are still talking about immortal ghosts and haven't digressed to talking about mortal men.

[Aithrobates]

I've been pondering this (I mean intuition and confirming my conclusions with divination) and I think I have something like and hypothesis.

 

I'll try to put this into "shamanic" terms.

 

Yin travel is basically moving consciously with your Po soul.

 

Your Po will in any case do its own buissness, travel by itself, and go back, bringing strange memories that we call dreams. It is possible to make yourself aware of your Po acitivity. To put your intention in there, intention is the Yi soul.

 

During regular sleep and dreams Yi is bascially "off". That's why it is so soothing to go to bed and have a good night sleep. Because Yi is Soil and is Worrying. While you loose consiousness in sleep you do not worry, about any of your mundane problems. ^^

 

Now if you activate your Yi and use it to follow the Po activity, to put your intention, attention, counsciousness there. Dreams can become lucid, spirit travels can be done.

 

This is indeed a technology, it creates and imbalance that will have to be taken care off. Here you play with Soil and Metal. Spleen and Lung. The Yin Soil of Kun (not the Yang Soil of Gen) and the Yin Metal-giving-birth-to-Water of Dui (not the Yang Metal of Qian). So it is indeed very Yin. You'll have to balance that with Yang, and with the other Elements.

 

Now what happens if this state become a permanent post-mortem condition ? Hun, Po, Yi, Zhi, Shen souls would not go part ways like in a regular death, to continue  their existence, and eventually, for some of them, recompose a new being with others Hun, Po, Yi, Zhi, Shen, call it  "reincarnation". Instead like in a never ending spirit travel Po and Yi will be joined together. And those two won't reincarnate, they are out of Samasara.

 

That is - I think - what a Guixian is. They are only Yin Metal and Yin Soil, Lung and Spleen, Grief and Worrying. That's why it is a miserable condition.

 

How can you continue your cultivation in that condition ? How can you work with your emotions when three of them are lacking. How can yout work on your body when you do not have one anymore, and only Lung and Spleen energies ?

 

I think this analysis could be refined using Celestian Stems and Earthly Branches. But I'm not very good at them so ...

 

Anyway, my two cents.

[beingnature]

Aithrobates post made sense to me.I always wondered how and why you could become a ghost immortal. Could it be that forced breathing practices out of lower desires can lead in that direction?Is it that simple?I am thinking of using meditation out of desire instead of letting desires go and allowing your real self to live.

[Tibetan_Ice]

I was able to "break the curtain" with brute force within some weeks of high intensity mind training.

So I obviously demonstrated far above average mind strength with this act.

The more energy, strength and yang you have, the more they will be attracted to you.

I got off easy.

Good luck.

Have you ever read "Journeys Out Of The Body- Robert A. Monroe?

 

5/21/60 Night

I was lying deeply relaxed, late evening, in the bedroom. The vibrations

started evenly, and I quickly noticed the small leg thrown over my body

(non-physical, I assume). I felt the small body hanging onto my back.

Carefully, I reached around (non-physical?), and felt the small back

superimposed on mine. I patted the little shoulder gently (intending

understanding) and carefully lifted the small body and pushed it away

from mine. I waited, and it didn't come back or attempt to come near.

Not wanting to push my luck, I re-entered the physical, sat up, and made

these notes.

5/27/60 Night

After lifting out, I again felt what I knew to be one of the rubbery

entities on my back. No words or action, just the small body clinging

warmly to my back. This time, I did not get too frightened, and managed

to pull at the thing slowly. I pulled, and called to God to help me (at

the insistence of several people who are more theologically inclined

than I).

Again, the thing stretched as I putted, but didn't come off completely.

I remembered the visualized thought of fire, and that it hadn't seemed

much use, but had helped a little. This time, I tried thinking of

electricity. I visualized two pieces of highly charged wire. I mentally

stuck them into the side of that part of the entity that I had pulled

off. Immediately the mass deflated, went limp, and seemed to die. As it

did, a batlike thing squeaked past my head and went out the window. I

felt that I had won. I felt deep relief and went back down into the

physical, reintegrated, and sat up (physically).

8/25/60 Night

It happened again this trip. Just as I was getting under way, several

"things" attached themselves to various parts of my body (non-physical).

I say things because it was in total darkness, and I wouldn't or

couldn't see. They seemed almost like small fish, about eight or ten

inches long, and they attached themselves like the parasitic "sucker"

fish in the ocean. I pulled them off and pushed them away as best I

could, but they (or others) came back immediately. They weren't vicious,

just troublesome. Finally I went back in the physical to get rid of

them.

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

I hope we are still talking about immortal ghosts and haven't digressed to talking about mortal men.

Ah you see those two are actually one and same thing.

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[SonOfTheGods]

Why is it often considered evil, inferior, or simply not worth it ?

 

Do some of you know things about it ? Like different views different shcools have about it? Is becoming a ghost and unfortunate accident, or are there really people wanting to do this, practicing to reach this goal ? Etc...

 

Western Occultism/Mysticism/Spiritism/Sorcery is different from the Eastern POV

[opendao]

Phantom-immortal or ghost-immortal - Gui Xian ( 鬼仙 )

Gui Xian. Literally - the immortal among devils or the immortal devil. It was believed that this achievement is a characteristic of shamanic practices, the late Chan Buddhism, the pseudo-Taoism, different meditations. Withdrawal of Yin spirit in a state of no breath and palpitation. The practitioner remains mortal, despite the practice of spirit withdrawal and possible capabilities. Moreover, he may not be reborn after his death and stay a ghost forever. This was not practiced in Taoism, it was forbidden (meaning the serious study, not just jingzuo).

 

[Astral Monk]

Is any of this connected to emptyness practices? Like where one is supposed to 'go into the emptyness'?

 

 

8)

Edited January 2, 2016 by Astral Monk

[opendao]

Is any of this connected to emptyness practices? Like where one is supposed to 'go into the emptyness'?

 

Only if such "go into emptiness" leads to yin-soul exiting the body.

 

But usually people don't practice it so (it's hard), then it's just to relax the heart and calm down the mind.

Edited January 2, 2016 by opendao

[Walker]

See Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji: 钟曰：“鬼仙者，五仙之下一也。阴中超脱，神象不明，鬼关无姓，三山无名。虽不轮回，又难返蓬瀛。终无所归，止于投胎就舍而已。”

Whatever the reality of the situation discussed here may be, I have no idea. However, the written Chinese is very clear: according to the text (I believe it's Zhongli Quan speaking here), ghost immortals are not in the circle of rebirth-redeath.

 

Taoist Texts is free to disagree with the text, but to blithely misinterpret it to fit his/her beliefs is strange behavior. Many on this site and elsewhere are not simply content to disagree with Daoism, but seem to feel a need to bend Daoism to fit them. The need for imprimatur? The allure of the exotic? Whatever the reason, for Taoist Texts to then draw upon an elderly Japanese samurai's recorded hodge podge of ponderings in order to try and make the vastly mistaken point that anywhere in the writings of actual Daoists one will find lying being excused or even encouraged is, well, the type of all-too-common perversion that makes old masters shake their heads and sigh, whilst also confusing newcomers and the naive. Unfortunate.

[Taoist Texts]

Whatever the reality of the situation discussed here may be, I have no idea. However, the written Chinese is very clear: according to the text (I believe it's Zhongli Quan speaking here), ghost immortals are not in the circle of rebirth-redeath.

 

Taoist Texts is free to disagree with the text, but to blithely misinterpret it to fit his/her beliefs is strange behavior.  

Hi Walker;)

 

What about Eva Wong's translation of this bit? Wong is Wrong?

 

hehe;)

[Walker]

I can read the Chinese myself... what does it matter what Wong says.

 

Why do you use an impish, gremlin-like manner in these discussions?

[Taoist Texts]

I can read the Chinese myself... what does it matter what Wong says.

Excellent. So you are another non-Chinese who claims to know classical Chinese better than a highly educated native Chinese woman, who is an internationally acclaimed translator and a true Taoist. Such a claim is patently absurd, but then again you must be an initiated taoist too. You guys sell, live and breath absurdities. Good for you.

Why do you use an impish, gremlin-like manner in these discussions?

Because this old ronin is amused by absurdities. Please take no offence, its all in good fun.

[opendao]

Whatever the reality of the situation discussed here may be, I have no idea. However, the written Chinese is very clear: according to the text (I believe it's Zhongli Quan speaking here), ghost immortals are not in the circle of rebirth-redeath.

 

Taoist Texts is free to disagree with the text, but to blithely misinterpret it to fit his/her beliefs is strange behavior. Many on this site and elsewhere are not simply content to disagree with Daoism, but seem to feel a need to bend Daoism to fit them. The need for imprimatur? The allure of the exotic? Whatever the reason, for Taoist Texts to then draw upon an elderly Japanese samurai's recorded hodge podge of ponderings in order to try and make the vastly mistaken point that anywhere in the writings of actual Daoists one will find lying being excused or even encouraged is, well, the type of all-too-common perversion that makes old masters shake their heads and sigh, whilst also confusing newcomers and the naive. Unfortunate.

 

Well said, even if it's sad... The only reason TT lies about the text is not because he reads Hagakure too much, but because the very next paragraph in Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji exactly and in details describes "meditations" our "Quanzhen follower" is trying to promote aggressively, saying that "Neidan is a dead end" at every corner. LOL, who told him he knows anything about Neidan??? Any ways, anything like "meditation is wrong" brings our samurai to a state of a screaming troll, and he starts to repeat his evil-protection mantra: "all taoists are greedy", insulting a bunch of people in all crimes...

 

But for open minded people everything is clear, and for Neidan practioners it's a well known fact, that various "meditation" technique can lead to a real dead-end: becoming a ghost immortal. There is nothing to argue here, really.

 

钟曰："修持之人，始也不悟大道，而欲于速成。形如搞木，心若死灰，神识内守，一志不散。定中以出阴神，乃清灵之鬼，非纯阳之仙。以其一志阴灵不散，故曰鬼仙。虽曰仙，其实鬼也。古今崇释之徒，用功到此，乃曰得道，诚可笑也。"

 

Eva's translation (as usual, with "minor mistakes"):

"'People become ghost immortals when they try to cultivate but do not understand the Tao. Wanting to make fast progress, they take shortcuts in their training. As a result, their bodies are as brittle as dry wood and their minds are as dead as cold ashes. Hoping to keep the spirit within, they hold on to their intention. Thus, when they enter stillness, only the yin spirit is liberated. As a result, they become ghosts with no spirit; they cannot become immortals of pure yang. Because the yin spirit does not dissipate after they die, they are called ghost immortals. Although these beings are classified as immortals, they are really ghosts with no substance. Practitioners who claim to be Buddhist and who practice incorrectly the techniques of quiet sitting usually end up as this type of immortal.'"

Edited January 2, 2016 by opendao

[Sunshine007]

Not really expert on anything but few things that struck me here, which I will list down.

 

1. If everything came from one source then they definitely can return to the source including, in my humble opinion, "ghost immortals" even though it might be very difficult for them.

 

2. By reading these threads it seems one can infer somehow sitting meditation may lead to one becoming a a "ghost immortal" .

 

"Practitioners who claim to be Buddhist and who practice incorrectly the techniques of quiet sitting usually end up as this type of immortal.'"

 

This can be answered by keeping in the mind the competition between Taoism and Buddhism in ancient china and it is not unnatural to put down the technique of rival tradition to get the upper hand. 

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[opendao]

Not really expert on anything but few things that struck me here, which I will list down.

 

1. If everything came from one source then they definitely can return to the source including, in my humble opinion, "ghost immortals" even though it might be very difficult for them.

 

as mentioned before, it's possible with _external_ help.

 

2. By reading these threads it seems one can infer somehow sitting meditation may lead to one becoming a a "ghost immortal" .

 

"Practitioners who claim to be Buddhist and who practice incorrectly the techniques of quiet sitting usually end up as this type of immortal.'"

 

This can be answered by keeping in the mind the competition between Taoism and Buddhism in ancient china and it is not unnatural to put down the technique of rival tradition to get the upper hand. 

 

No, it's not a case in Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji quoted above, read careful, it criticizes pseudo-Daoists first of all.