Ghost immortality

[Wu Ming Jen]

True emptiness is not empty. when emptiness is empty that is called the ghost cave and should be left immediately or never entered.

 

The tigers cave is something very different we must enter that place to overcome what ever fear and snatch the peril of wisdom. 

 

People face the wall and wear out their cushions in meditation with out attaining any thing, yes another ghost cave

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

Open Dao is correct about the meaning of the document.

 

One of the key points in both Zhong Lv documents and Zhang Boduan's writings was to correct misunderstandings about how people practiced back to that time.

When Zhong and Lv talk about five types of immortals, they are talking about incorrect and correct ways to practice.

Just like how at the start of Wu Zhen, it says "

學仙須是學天仙、

惟有金丹最的端"

to study immortality, must study heaven immortality.

Only Jin Dan is the best method.

 

 

Zhang is commenting on Zhong Lv's five immortals concept and supporting their assertion.

 

 

Even though maybe some people don't agree that the work is meant to be completely literal, and not figurative, it does indeed say exactly what Open dao translated it as.  

Back to Lv Dongbin's time, he was involved in correcting many problems of old Daoism, so for sure he had to talk about what people were doing wrong.   

Incidentally, the ghost immortal level of practice is very similar in concept to how hippy new age culture has taken up fad meditation but only gets to a poor level of achievement because they don't know how to practice, and study too many fake things, too fast.  This problem is ongoing in the spiritual traditions  :) :)

[Aithrobates]

Thanks for all the answers guys.

 

I'm happy to be sure that ghost immortals are not regular ghosts. That it's still ok to offer veneration to the beloved ancestors, like they do everywhere around the world.

 

I hope your're right, opendao, when you say that today most are not good enough to practice effectively and to reach ghost immortality. Well, it's Kali Yuga / Iron Age / pick your favourite cultural name, we are supposed to be less and less good at spirituality, and as the teaching are endangered to have less and less access to the real stuff. So it makes sense.

 

I'm worried about people practicing astral projection. But I think I'm even more worried about people practicing lucid dreaming as a hobby with no spiritual intention at all, like it's a purely neurological technology, a fun passtime. There are so many sites and books and forum about it... Well maybe they are just playing with karmic traces, but the risk of leaving the body, while perhaps minimum, is still there...

[ralis]

Thanks for all the answers guys.

 

I'm happy to be sure that ghost immortals are not regular ghosts. That it's still ok to offer veneration to the beloved ancestors, like they do everywhere around the world.

 

I hope your're right, opendao, when you say that today most are not good enough to practice effectively and to reach ghost immortality. Well, it's Kali Yuga / Iron Age / pick your favourite cultural name, we are supposed to be less and less good at spirituality, and as the teaching are endangered to have less and less access to the real stuff. So it makes sense.

 

I'm worried about people practicing astral projection. But I think I'm even more worried about people practicing lucid dreaming as a hobby with no spiritual intention at all, like it's a purely neurological technology, a fun passtime. There are so many sites and books and forum about it... Well maybe they are just playing with karmic traces, but the risk of leaving the body, while perhaps minimum, is still there...

 

I am not convinced that one actually leaves one's body, but is a wider visionary experience.

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[MooNiNite]

I'm happy to be sure that ghost immortals are not regular ghosts. That it's still ok to offer veneration to the beloved ancestors, like they do everywhere around the world.

Ghost immortal is actually very low and is indeed attained by many ordinary people. To assume that special training, or deviated training is necessary, only leads to misunderstanding. 

[MooNiNite]

A ghost immortal is not a spirit. Only an Earth immortal can be considered a spirit, and even they are not beyond rebirth. 

 

Ghosts immortals are eventually led back to the light whether they like it or not. To say they are beyond rebirth is completely dubious, because they are in a place with only one door, and they will be forced through that door regardless of their will.

 

Trying to force ideas of "special training" and "deviated training" as the only process of evolution is completely absurd, you don't observe the actual processes of correct training. 

[Astral Monk]

I'm worried about people practicing astral projection. But I think I'm even more worried about people practicing lucid dreaming as a hobby with no spiritual intention at all, like it's a purely neurological technology, a fun passtime. There are so many sites and books and forum about it... Well maybe they are just playing with karmic traces, but the risk of leaving the body, while perhaps minimum, is still there...

 

Lucid dreaming is just increasing the vivacity of ones awareness during dreams. To be 'worried' about this is like being worried about ppl waking up everyday after a good nights sleep. IOW, nothing particularly special going on there, in fact this happens naturally for ppl without any 'training' whatsoever 

 

Astral travel, OTOH, is something else, that ppl must actively try to achieve and might lead to strange experiences as some have described.

 

8)

Edited January 3, 2016 by Astral Monk

[Aithrobates]

Trying to force ideas of "special training" and "deviated training" as the only process of evolution is completely absurd, you don't observe the actual processes of correct training. 

 

I'm sorry if I gave that impression.

 

I'm not trying to force anything. After reading the answers to the questions I've been asking, I made my mind and was persuaded by one of the POV that were exposed. I may have choosed the wrong one, bad for me if it's the case.

 

I'm not criticizing incorrect daoist practices while not practicing myself. That would indeed be absurd !

 

It happend that I got interested by the fact that different cultures talked about how some dead persons won't follow the regular course of death, join the other world, etc.. but that something considered as bad was happening.

 

Two things seem to overlap in the available datas:

 

1) Regular souls that for some reason are bond to a place or a person, or unable to move on often because they are too angry.

2) Persons who attained a certain condition because of what they did in life, spiritual practices that involved spirit travel (not to say that such practices will allways cause that), alliances with bad spirits, and wicked deeds.

 

So I asked for a Daoist perspective on that matters. That's all.

 

I tried to formulate my understanding of thoses matters in a former post. I chosed to used a terminology that people here will be familliar with, not wanting to use the cultural neutral terms that would be more adequate as I'm basically doing comparative work here. I was hoping that, while totally uncorrect from a daoist perspective, my explaination would make the way I understood all that more or less clear. And so that people would be able to criticize and correct me.

 

I hope everybody understood that I fancy myself a translator, not a daoist ^^, a translator of different cultural names for what I think are the same things. I'm not pretending to be a daoist, or knowledgeable in daoism, and able to tell what is good or not in that field. Not at all.

[Aithrobates]

Lucid dreaming is just increasing the vivacity of ones awareness during dreams. To be 'worried' about this is like being worried about ppl waking up everyday after a good nights sleep. IOW, nothing particularly special going on there, in fact this happens naturally for ppl without any 'training' whatsoever 

 

Astral travel, OTOH, is something else, that ppl must actively try to achieve and might lead to strange experiences as some have described.

 

You're right. But but the problem is that in the "non-spiritual" practice of LD, things are often taken lightly, as an entertainement. Still dream pratices are considered a spiritual practices, and powerfull ones in many traditions, it is something powerfull, a way to contact the spirit world, and indulging too much in it without respect or precaution is tricky.

 

LD is normal, yes. But everything that happens during any practice is normal. Human beings have this latent potential. Consiously and systematically cultivating it is another thing.

 

As for the minimum risk of leaving the body: I noticed that some tech given to achive LD involved entering the dream by "leaving the body", and starting the dream from the room your are sleeping in. That, I think, is visualizing oneself doing that, not doing it effectively. But as you trained yourself to aim for this situation... is there not a risk that one entered an unwanted and unmastered astral travel ?

[MooNiNite]

I'm sorry if I gave that impression.

 

I wasn't referring to you in the second post. Mostly to everyone in general. I can see how it could be misleading though. 

Edited January 3, 2016 by MooNiNite

[MooNiNite]

1) Regular souls that for some reason are bond to a place or a person, or unable to move on often because they are too angry.

2) Persons who attained a certain condition because of what they did in life, spiritual practices that involved spirit travel (not to say that such practices will allways cause that), alliances with bad spirits, and wicked deeds.

 

Being a ghost immortal, is considered improper practice and guidance because they do not get very far at all. It is like wanting to be an MMA fighter and quitting after the first match. It isn't because they have made some fundamental flaw and are stuck that way, like they somehow did some special practice wrong and now can't go back. 

 

The lost ghosts on earth are indeed the same as ghost immortals. Human Immortal is still nothing special either, as many people are expected to reach this stage during the prime of their life. 

 

A ghost immortal certainly can't train and reach higher states after death either. They have not attained what the Daoists refer to as "houtain fusion," so they are pure yin and have no creative potential. They are basically floating memories with some type of grudge because of their past experiences. If a master goes into a temple or home and their are ghosts he will banish them. 

 

Houtain Fusion is only attained at Earth Immortal, and even then they are not beyond rebirth. They can just stick around fully conscious for a long period of time after death, but they will soon have to leave too. 

 

It is the word "immortal" that throws people off, but every sentient being is an immortal according to the Daoists, because they have a soul. Freedom or Enlightenment is the only way to transcend spinning in the wheel however. 

[Astral Monk]

As for the minimum risk of leaving the body: I noticed that some tech given to achive LD involved entering the dream by "leaving the body", and starting the dream from the room your are sleeping in. That, I think, is visualizing oneself doing that, not doing it effectively. But as you trained yourself to aim for this situation... is there not a risk that one entered an unwanted and unmastered astral travel ?

 

Ah well, I never heard of that. It sure sounds like using astral travel to spark awareness. Weird way to go IMHO.

 

I would agree that we can use dreams in spiritual practice. But for the average person exploring what is possible in their own mind scape, this is the least dangerous thing to do. I mean taking hallucinogens, hypnosis, deep psychotherapy all try to get a better awareness of the mind's processing and they might be dangerous for some minds. Taking a walk in the forest can be dangerous and it might be safer to go with a guide, but countless people go for a nature stroll and return no harm done.

 

At least with lucid dreaming you are only in your own mind in a 'place' of your own making, and in the end all you can see is yourself. Not like consciously trying to crack another plane or mess with magic or external spirits and the like.

 

8)

Edited January 3, 2016 by Astral Monk

[opendao]

It happend that I got interested by the fact that different cultures talked about how some dead persons won't follow the regular course of death, join the other world, etc.. but that something considered as bad was happening.

 

Could you find anything similar to "ghost immortal" in other cultures?

[opendao]

You're right. But but the problem is that in the "non-spiritual" practice of LD, things are often taken lightly, as an entertainement. Still dream pratices are considered a spiritual practices, and powerfull ones in many traditions, it is something powerfull, a way to contact the spirit world, and indulging too much in it without respect or precaution is tricky.

 

LD is normal, yes. But everything that happens during any practice is normal. Human beings have this latent potential. Consiously and systematically cultivating it is another thing.

 

As for the minimum risk of leaving the body: I noticed that some tech given to achive LD involved entering the dream by "leaving the body", and starting the dream from the room your are sleeping in. That, I think, is visualizing oneself doing that, not doing it effectively. But as you trained yourself to aim for this situation... is there not a risk that one entered an unwanted and unmastered astral travel ?

 

yes, the risk with lucid dreaming is big, and there are a lot of new-age practices a la Castaneda, where the border between "lucid dreaming" and "out of the body experience" is very thin. In Daoism such things are not recommended, and moreover there are practices to stop any dreams.

[Junko]

They are special people who can channel ghost.

[Aithrobates]

Could you find anything similar to "ghost immortal" in other cultures?

 

In a nutshell:

 

Vampires, the real ones, in balkanic-central european context, would be likely candidates. There you find shamanic-like practices, the vampires, and some affinities can be showned between the two. Sometimes vampires will not only feed on human but can feed on sun and moon.

 

Mongols have regular ghosts that are plain lost sun souls (similar to po). Spirit causing illlness are called chotgor, most some of them are suns, some not. And some illness are caused by burhan. Burhan are very powerfull and should be tamed, unlike the others that can simply be dissmissed to the underworld (from where a sun reincarnates). The origins or burhan are unclear, but what is is that they have to be tamed and transormed into a helping spirit by a powerfull shaman. That is what happens when a tibetan buddhist tame an evil spirit so that it now helps and protects the Dharma, and to me looks similar to a guixian having to be saved by another immortal.

 

Some clues, I think, can be found in chinese folklore, chinese culture as a whole, not just daoism. Huli Jing and other Fox fellows are said to feed on humans, and sometimes sun and moon.They have that feminine quality, and that vampiric quality too.

 

The predation can often be expressed sexually, then whe have all the folklore about sex hungry female, yin, spirits, available almost everywhere on the world. Some of them satisfied by shamans who would gain much power from that alliance (as a matter of fact spirit marriage appears to be  a key point in siberian shamanism, if one take the time to read ethnographic litterature...). Most of them causing trouble to men. Think of the christianized version: succubi and incubi.

 

Greek Empousai. I could say much about Empousai, but do no feel that I have the right to open that. Anyway this is available eveywhere in mythology and some philosophical texts.

 

The question is: can humans be transformed into those yin beings ?

 

Thay may or may not be a good question but: what kind of immortal Bai Mu Dan became when she tricked Lü Dong Bin ?

[ilumairen]

This is like a college boy telling an old soldier, who managed to get back unharmed because he acted calm and intelligent in battle, how brave he would have behaved in war.

 

Please forgive me, but you said you called your friend afterwards to tell him about what happened. That does seem kind of 'college boy' to me.

 

I'm also not really understanding why you called it a 'war'. Your experience is written in such a way that it sounded blissful. Then you talked to a friend, took on your friend's understanding of your own experience, and created the war in your own mind.

 

I'm also not sure why it is believed that anything was being 'stolen' from you as there was no climax, and the being that you perceived left of their own accord before any of that ever precious white stuff was spilled.

 

And finally I see little similarity with what you shared and the tiny bodies someone else quoted yet another person as forcefully pulling off of themselves.

[ralis]

Please forgive me, but you said you called your friend afterwards to tell him about what happened. That does seem kind of 'college boy' to me. I'm also not really understanding why you called it a 'war'. Your experience is written in such a way that it sounded blissful. Then you talked to a friend, took on your friend's understanding of your own experience, and created the war in your own mind. I'm also not sure why it is believed that anything was being 'stolen' from you as there was no climax, and the being that you perceived left of their own accord before any of that ever precious white stuff was spilled. And finally I see little similarity with what you shared and the tiny bodies someone else quoted yet another person as forcefully pulling off of themselves.

 

Perhaps I am not understanding your narrative, but Wells is making an analogy in the quote you referenced.

[ilumairen]

Perhaps I am not understanding your narrative, but Wells is making an analogy in the quote you referenced.

 

I understand the analogy; I'm questioning the accuracy of the analogy.

[ralis]

I understand the analogy; I'm questioning the accuracy of the analogy.

 

I think your entire post is fabricated. I guess you fail to understand what an analogy is.

[Wells]

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Marblehead]

 

That's what's up.

He always reacts like that.

Well, I would react like that too so you get no points and Brian loses no points as far as I'm concerned.

[ilumairen]

Thank you for explaining your position Wells.

[Brian]

In the first place, you don't understand why Brian reacted as defensive and provocating as he did.

I rubbed his nose in the fact that I was able to do in a very short time

what he still fails to do although he tries already for a long time.

I also offered my opinion, that he is deluding himself with his belief, "that the curtain is getting thin"

and that what he's trying to do is simply beyond his ability.

He didn't like that and seemingly emotionally motivated, he fabricated an insult, covered as rational thought, to undermine my achievement.

That's what's up.

Business as usual, he always reacts like that when feeling pinched by me.

Your incomprehension of my posts (in thread after thread, for years) is not due to a lack of intelligence or language skills but of experience. My sincere wish for you is that you someday find and learn to maintain the state beyond thought.

 

You won't think your way to your goal and attacking those who tell you this won't help you along the path, either.