Ghost immortality

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Chang]

In the first place, you don't understand why Brian reacted as defensive and provocating as he did.

I rubbed his nose in the fact that I was able to do in a very short time

what he still fails to do although he tries already for a long time.

I also offered my opinion, that he is deluding himself with his belief, "that the curtain is getting thin"

and that what he's trying to do is simply beyond his ability.

He didn't like that and seemingly emotionally motivated, he fabricated an insult, covered as rational thought, to undermine my achievement.

That's what's up.

Business as usual, he always reacts like that when feeling pinched by me.

 

I fear that you are deluded sir. Perhaps when your level of achievement is comparable to your arrogance you will be better placed to comment on these matters.

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[Daeluin]

It is amusing to me, how those with humility have little need to berate others, while those without seem to think everyone wants to be like them. And so the world turns....

 

I don't know any facts about ghost immortals. There seems to be a lot of wisdom in this thread. Immortals may be beyond the "gravity" of reincarnation/transmigration, but I believe there are ways for them to return to it. I've been told this by sources I trust, and have no reason to believe this cannot also apply to the dark end of the spectrum. However unlikely it may be for something to change, the only truly changeless is at the heart of dao. But don't take my word for it.

 

As ever, fear is what invites darkness. I've heard spiritual masters answer these questions of fear of possession and such by simply advising that one not dwell on such things, instead choosing to spend that energy in being their true selves, and thus precluding the possibility of such things.

[ralis]

Your incomprehension of my posts (in thread after thread, for years) is not due to a lack of intelligence or language skills but of experience. My sincere wish for you is that you someday find and learn to maintain the state beyond thought.

 

You won't think your way to your goal and attacking those who tell you this won't help you along the path, either.

 

Are you maintaining a state beyond thought? Since when is thought a negative in the grand scheme of things? Certainly it is not a problem in Dzogchen or any other teaching that claims a fundamental understanding of life.

[Marblehead]

There seems to be a lot of wisdom in this thread.

Yes, there is.  But it needs be weeded out.

 

And really, one cannot prove or disprove another's personal experiences.  These things should be stated and then let go of.

 

 

Immortals may be beyond the "gravity" of reincarnation/transmigration, but I believe there are ways for them to return to it.

 

That struck me because I also hold to that concept although at a different level, that being of our states of "wu" and "yu".

 

And really, the concept of "return" is a very important concept in Taoism.

[Brian]

Are you maintaining a state beyond thought? Since when is thought a negative in the grand scheme of things? Certainly it is not a problem in Dzogchen or any other teaching that claims a fundamental understanding of life.

Not constantly.

 

Don't think I've ever said or even suggested that thought is a negative. In fact, I think anyone who has been reading my posts here over the last five years or so (however long I've been a Bum) will recognize that I am still too cerebral, too thought-oriented, too shen-heavy, whatever. I'm much better balanced now than a few years ago, though.

 

I have written several times about my personal development with regards to rational thought -- learning single-focused thought, then later learning to control multithreaded thought, then much later learning to observe thoughts without attachment or engagement. It was years later, though, that someone showed me (or lead me to) the state of no-thought, that rest-state beyond rational thought in which thought becomes optional and volitional.

 

This was a watershed moment for me, an inflection point in my awareness of "self" and the fallacy of so much that I thought I knew. The scales began to fall from my eyes and continue to fall. I began to see the simultaneous validity and invalidity of so many of the philosophies, theologies, teachings, schools of thought,etc., as well as the unavoidable nature of that conflict AND the deep similarities between these seemingly disparate teachings. Such are the inherent limitations of thoughts and words.

 

As might be expected, I also increasingly find not only value in many of the posts by my fellow Bums but, at the same time, I increasingly recognize them to be mostly shallow, egoistic, hypocritical and devoid of insight -- especially my own posts. In fact, I think I am nearing the point of stepping out of active participation here.

 

I don't claim to follow Dzogchen but I recognize within myself the merit of much of these teachings (minus the dogma). I don't claim to be Buddhist but I recognize I am bodhisattva (again, stripping away the egoistic claptrap). I don't claim to be Christian but I see the essence of the Nazarene (but I feel sorrow for the Churchians and want to shake them when they recite The Lord's Prayer). I don't claim to be Taoist but I recognize primordial Taoism to be unspeakably profound (I think the DDJ should be read no further than the first chapter until it makes one laugh out loud at one's own foolishness). I see tremendous value in scientific study but I now understand the dangers and pervasiveness of the religion of Scientism. I could continue but there's no need.

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[MooNiNite]

The goal is certainly to go beyond thought, it is in the sense of mastering the mind.

 

Master the body and mind, and the conscious experience goes inside-out.

[ralis]

The goal is certainly to go beyond thought, it is in the sense of mastering the mind.

 

Master the body and mind, and the conscious experience goes inside-out.

 

How does one go beyond thought? Blank or silent mind? Not in the least bit.

[MooNiNite]

Self-mastery is the Daoist Spiritual Immortal. 

 

Ghost Immortal, Human Immortal, Earth Immortal, Spiritual Immortal, Celestial Immortal. 

 

pure yin  ----->>>>     ---------->>>  ----------------->>>>    --------->>>>     pure yang

 

The spiritual immortal has the ability to heal disease, where as the others dont heal properly because the body is not at full potential. 

[MooNiNite]

How does one go beyond thought? Blank or silent mind? Not in the least bit.

 

By mastering thought, attaining silence. 

 

This is how one achieves grace and magnetism.

[ralis]

By mastering thought, attaining silence. 

 

This is how one achieves grace and magnetism.

 

Attempting to silence the mind is contrary to neurophysiology. If your mind was in absolute silence I doubt you would be posting here.

[MooNiNite]

That is where we disagree, those who have mastered their mind can call upon it when needed and use it as necessary. They don't get lost in it like normal people who are constantly in a sleeping state because of it.

 

Furthermore, if you study the evolutionary capacity of man you will find that western science is disproved quite frequently.

 

Western science holds a fundamental stance towards human evolution that is primitive.

 

Lastly, the Question of "How" to master the mind is approached differently by different schools.

[opendao]

Self-mastery is the Daoist Spiritual Immortal. 

 

Ghost Immortal, Human Immortal, Earth Immortal, Spiritual Immortal, Celestial Immortal. 

 

pure yin  ----->>>>     ---------->>>  ----------------->>>>    --------->>>>     pure yang

 

The spiritual immortal has the ability to heal disease, where as the others dont heal properly because the body is not at full potential. 

 

well, most people never learn... good luck in your "self mastery", but it would be better not to mislead others, it's bad for all, including yourself. Read at least some texts, if you have nobody to ask. "Pure yin" is a way opposite to Dao, there is no any doubt here. And it's not a starting point, because any human is partially Yin, partially Yang.

 

About healing you also have no clue, how it works and when.

[ralis]

That is where we disagree, those who have mastered their mind can call upon it when needed and use it as necessary. They don't get lost in it like normal people who are constantly in a sleeping state because of it.

 

Have you mastered your mind such that the above statement would be in agreement with your experience? Are you referring to Gurdjieff's ideology regarding sleep?

 

Furthermore, if you study the evolutionary capacity of man you will find that western science is disproved quite frequently

Western science holds a fundamental stance towards human evolution that is primitive.

 

Please show peer reviewed research to back up your claim and what aspects of Western science are disproved? State clear and precise examples.  Aliens, conspiracy theories etc. will be rejected.

Edited January 3, 2016 by ralis

[MooNiNite]

well, most people never learn... good luck in your "self mastery", but it would be better not to mislead others, it's bad for all, including yourself. Read at least some texts, if you have nobody to ask. "Pure yin" is a way opposite to Dao, there is no any doubt here. And it's not a starting point, because any human is partially Yin, partially Yang.

 

About healing you also have no clue, how it works and when.

 

From my perspective you are misleading others. 

 

 

"Pure yin" is a way opposite to Dao, there is no any doubt here.

 

So you are saying that ghost immortals, after death, have yang?

[opendao]

So you are saying that ghost immortals, after death, have yang?

 

??? obviously not, not a gram of yang.

[thelerner]

Out of curiosity are most people basing there ghost immortal beliefs on the Buddhist model?  It'd be interesting if someone knowledgeable talked about how Buddhism, Hinduism and Taoism treated the concept of immortal ghost.   Where they agree, where they split off. 

 

It may be people are using different religious traditions in the discussion here. 

[MooNiNite]

??? obviously not, not a gram of yang.

lol. well then.

[MooNiNite]

Out of curiosity are most people basing there ghost immortal beliefs on the Buddhist model?  It'd be interesting if someone knowledgeable talked about how Buddhism, Hinduism and Taoism treated the concept of immortal ghost.   Where they agree, where they split off. 

 

It may be people are using different religious traditions in the discussion here. 

 

Well one thing is common throughout Buddhism, Hinduism, and Daoism, and that is that enlightenment is the only way out of continual rebirth.

 

 

Those claiming ghost immortals are beyond rebirth is completely flawed. 

 

Is there a second path for ghost immortals to escape the wheel of rebirth?

 

No, only those who follow enlightenment get to escape the wheel. 

Edited January 3, 2016 by MooNiNite

[silent thunder]

Cool topic.

Many experts.

Much decisive knowing and fierce certainty.

No consensus.

But lots and lots of certainty.

 

This thread has done me a service, a nice reminder that whenever I'm most certain, I should be most cautious, because I'm my most open to being completely, ridiculously wrong and given to statements of absurdity.  My certainty births a confidence that fosters a mindset that all that can and might be 'known' is already possessed and further exploration is pointless.  What a load of fuckery often flows in my life from this state.  I have yet to encounter any state, in sleep, meditation, trance, or in my 'daily' life, that engenders in me a sense that I know everything about anything.  Live in the question and just because I thought it, doesn't make it real both seem appropriate.

 

Having said that, I can't imagine that I, or anyone making any statements, or writing a book who is not a yin ghost would know if Yin Ghosthood is good or bad.  And even were a Yin Immortal to write a book, could I then take that one immortals perspective, as the one true and correct Truth.  I can imagine many scenarios in which it might be beneficial, or preferential to other states after 'death' and just as many that seem downright terrifying.  All are mere suppositions, albeit very entertaining.

 

Sort of like life... how it seems to me, its goodness and badness, is based on how I perceive it.  And how I perceive it, is not inherently right, or true, or important.  The same state of yin immortality may be blissful to one and terrifying to another... who is to decide?  who is right or wrong?  To quote Spock... "fascinating."

 

Deep thanks again for the presence of this forum.  So many delicious bones to chew.

[MooNiNite]

Cool topic.

Many experts.

Much decisive knowing and fierce certainty.

No consensus.

But lots and lots of certainty.

 

Well if you train you will have experiences that give you an understanding of each phase. It is very clear when one becomes a human immortal, when one becomes an earth immortal, and when one becomes a Spiritual immortal. 

 

There are many commonalities between systems, and those who train will see them. 

 

It is very much a science. 

 

You also claim to be a student of Wang Liping. And claim that he is a Great Master.

 

Well his 2nd Book Ling Bao.. Explains very clearly exactly what the nature of a ghost immortal is. 

 

They arrive at the three islands with no name and then have nowhere to go, so it's back to rebirth. 

 

Why haven't you read it? Pay thousands and thousands to go to the seminar and haven't read the book?

 

His teachings on mastering the body and quieting the mind are also very clear! 

Edited January 4, 2016 by MooNiNite

[Wells]

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Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

[sillybearhappyhoneyeater]

I just realized that maybe the OP also had previously heard of the Confucian idea of "gui shen," which means ghost and spirit.

That model is also aligned somewhat with Daoism, since Zhu Xi suggested the Confucian Gui shen model could be used as a way to talk about the relationship between yin and yang in the yijing.

That depends on if you believe the yijing is a Daoist book or not though.

 

When we look at these ideas, we have to be aware that the period of time between when Lv Dongbin, Zhang Boduan, and Zhu Xi were not so far apart, and also that many common Chinese ideas such as ghost and spirit, xian, five elements, yijing, yin and yang, heavenly stems and earthly branches, and so on and so forth all made it into their writings, regardless of which school they belonged to.   That makes the relationship between these theories much more transitory than we might otherwise imagine them to be.

 

Sorry if this is too much of a diversion from the original topic  :) :)