Ghost immortality

[opendao]

Sort of like life... how it seems to me, its goodness and badness, is based on how I perceive it.  And how I perceive it, is not inherently right, or true, or important.  The same state of yin immortality may be blissful to one and terrifying to another... who is to decide?  who is right or wrong?  

 

Good point. Sure, we must think critical, and doubts are our best friends on the way. But we don't have to believe in anything, as well as we don't have to accept anything as truth. What's good about Daoism, is that all such metaphysical concepts can be practically proved, and the results will be predictably the same for all practitioners. It's a science, with own laws, stages, technologies etc. This is the major difference between ancient Daoism and many other religions or spiritual ways: it works even if you don't believe in it 

 

But we also need to remember, that to neglect warnings made by masters of the past, respected by their results, is to look for disasters.

[Brian]

Have you mastered your mind such that the above statement would be in agreement with your experience? Are you referring to Gurdjieff's ideology regarding sleep?

 

 

Please show peer reviewed research to back up your claim and what aspects of Western science are disproved? State clear and precise examples. Aliens, conspiracy theories etc. will be rejected.

Gosh, however about virtually everything more than 150 years old, including everything "proven" by Aristotle, Newton & Darwin? Just because they were wrong doesn't mean their works were not useful, or don't continue to be.

 

Funny how that works...

 

[ralis]

Gosh, however about virtually everything more than 150 years old, including everything "proven" by Aristotle, Newton & Darwin? Just because they were wrong doesn't mean their works were not useful, or don't continue to be.

 

Funny how that works...

 

 

Am I supposed to divine his intention or hidden meanings? For all I know, he may believe in the 'flat earth' theory or human alien hybrids.

 

Darwin was wrong? What are your sources? I would expect that from one who believes in 'intelligent design' and a 6000 year old universe, but from you?

Edited January 4, 2016 by ralis

[shanlung]

Please show peer reviewed research to back up your claim and what aspects of Western science are disproved? State clear and precise examples.  Aliens, conspiracy theories etc. will be rejected.

 

 

In days of yore in Western Sciences, there were reams of peer reviewed papers on the properties of phlogiston and phlogistonic ethers.

 

Go dig into there and be ambly rewarded for your desire for peer reviewed papers

 

 

Idiotic Taoist

[ralis]

In days of yore in Western Sciences, there were reams of peer reviewed papers on the properties of phlogiston and phlogistonic ethers.

 

Go dig into there and be ambly rewarded for your desire for peer reviewed papers

 

 

Idiotic Taoist

 

This is the quote that I was challenging. That is a very broad statement with no context whatsoever and is very misleading. As for your comments, such are irrelevant.

 

 

western science is disproved quite frequently

[MooNiNite]

it would be better not to mislead others, it's bad for all, including yourself. 

 

I never spoke of any training methods or paths. 

[LaoZiDao]

P.S. MooNiNite, was it you who thought that Dalai Lama is a Celestial Immortal? No offence, no, just asking...

 

Dalai Lama is just a CIA agent

Edited February 26, 2016 by LaoZiDao

[opendao]

 

Dalai Lama is just a CIA agent

 

CIA? Celestial Immortal Agents? I'm afraid to guess what FBI means then...     

[haedon]

CIA? Celestial Immortal Agents? I'm afraid to guess what FBI means then...     

Why and what? I guess FBI are being ironic.

[Taoist Texts]

this one is oldie but goodie

 Or you'd like to recall how you did translate qixue as "Qi Lair". 
 

 

Chi Kung | Dantians | Qigong

 

Due to this internal connection, the area of the navel is considered to be the lair of Chi (Qi)

 

 

LiteratiTradition: The Text Sources of Qi Gong

 ... when one acknowledges the gate of the mysterious qi lair;”

 

 Lol? Lol!

[opendao]

 

this one is oldie but goodie

 

Chi Kung | Dantians | Qigong

 

Due to this internal connection, the area of the navel is considered to be the lair of Chi (Qi)

 

 

LiteratiTradition: The Text Sources of Qi Gong

 ... when one acknowledges the gate of the mysterious qi lair;”

 

 Lol? Lol!

 

Really funny. Qixue is a basic term in Neidan texts, and quotes are ok. But let's see how this was really translated by lol people during last year paid trolling campaign:

 

四字凝神入气穴；

 

Translating would be my pleasuer.

 

(for best results should  rapped to the Fresh Prince of Bel-air theme song)

...

 

Qi. Lair. Spirit. and Congeal.

Four characters only, this to see and feel:

Mainly the dictionary. Xue 穴

....

Is specifically an inhabitable hole. There is somebody inside and as you can see, that somebody hides there (thieves, rats etc) hence the lair.

 

   

 

it's a "gangsta rapped poetry" (sarcasm), but the idea in hobo's  translation is different to what is needed to be done here: "coagulate the spirit and let it enter the point of Qi (qixue)". Xue means accupoint, related to the Qi channels in the body. Secret? Not at all. Simple? For those who know. Can be proved by other texts? Easily, even in English.

 

So no thieves, no rats, no holes, no lair, nobody hides there, nothing needs to be dwell there - it's all fantasies of qigong folks and inattentive translators, who make up sense out of nothing, just to confirm own biases and false views. And "see and feel" are not in the Chinese text as well. Also hobo can't count characters and skipped 入. Because he has no idea what enters what and how...

 

We've seen many times, even in this thread, that it's not important if you are Chinese or not, and fluent in Mandarin/Cantonese/other dialects or not, it won't give you anything to understand classics of the alchemy.

 

The only way is a knowledgeable teacher and practice. Sure language is needed, however Wenyan allows very broad range of possible variants, and there is no way for non-initiated profanes to choose a correct meaning, used by the authors.

 

And simple conclusion from such Taoist Texts stories: check every translation on your own.

[Walker]

There are those of you who do not like Opendao's delivery. No surprise there--it's not like he sweetens his words (honestly, I haven't met all that many Russians who do!). But there isn't just an empty argument going on here between these two guys. Opendao is making an important point, and Taoist Text's "explanation" of “四字凝神入气穴” is so far from the mark as to be, to the cultivator hoping to learn what is meant by that line, utterly useless.

 

I'd give Taoist Texts the answer--it's no big secret--but, well, full cup problem. Best to stay clear of a man running wild with a brimming cup. Stand too close and it's not just him who ends up scalded.

[Daeluin]

There are those of you who do not like Opendao's delivery. No surprise there--it's not like he sweetens his words (honestly, I haven't met all that many Russians who do!). But there isn't just an empty argument going on here between these two guys. Opendao is making an important point, and Taoist Text's "explanation" of “四字凝神入气穴” is so far from the mark as to be, to the cultivator hoping to learn what is meant by that line, utterly useless.

 

I'd give Taoist Texts the answer--it's no big secret--but, well, full cup problem. Best to stay clear of a man running wild with a brimming cup. Stand too close and it's not just him who ends up scalded.

 

Honestly I don't dislike Opendao's delivery. It is more that I am having trouble identifying its effective principle. We started talking about this here, and I updated this thread yesterday with some recent ideas. I feel like the Martial fire could be effective, but perhaps I am simply not able to correctly perceive this. I would welcome suggestions in that thread. I am more a water person, and effective / refined use of fire has been more difficult to identify for me.

 

I like the general brimming cup parallel. So far I see that to be a very widespread issue - lots of people running with brimming cups. It feels like this often creates clashes which seem to resonate with the principle of fire. So it brings me back to this issue with understanding fire.

 

As for Taoist Texts, I don't know, is he looking for something?

[Taoist Texts]

 Taoist Text's "explanation" of “四字凝神入气穴” is so far from the mark as to be, to the cultivator hoping to learn what is meant by that line, utterly useless.

Walker;) please note that i provided no explanation at all beyond literal translation of that line. Providing explanation would be teaching publicly and for free, which i do not do.

 

I'd give Taoist Texts the answer--it's no big secret--

Please do. I promise not criticize it, but we can have a courteous discussion if you wish.

 

 

but, well, full cup problem. Best to stay clear of a man running wild with a brimming cup. Stand too close and it's not just him who ends up scalded.

Have no fear Walker, mine is a sippy-cup , spill-proof design, for my consumption only.

[Taoist Texts]

 

 

As for Taoist Texts, I don't know, is he looking for something?

 

Except myself. Something has found me already.

[Walker]

Well, I like courteousness. In that case, I would like to ask two questions. Below is the first, a two-part question:

 

We are talking about the sentence 四字凝神入气穴 (Hanyu Pinyin for non-Chinese readers: si zi ning shen ru qi xue).

 

Am I correct in believing that your your translation of this line is: "Qi. Lair. Spirit. and Congeal. Four characters only, this to see and feel?"

 

If so, do you mean that 四字 refers to 凝, 神, 气, and 穴?

[Taoist Texts]

Hi Walker

 

yes thats what i meant, then following your question decided to double check and found this commentary

 

大道之要，不外无为而为四字。

 

I wonder who the author of it is. Still think that i am right though.

[MooNiNite]

Before human immortal is ghost immortal. To say that most people are not at the stage of human immortal, but to say that they are also not at the stage of ghost immortal... doesn't make sense. There is nothing lower than ghost immortal. 

[MooNiNite]

Unless one removes themselves from human development and starts talking about animals, hell-beings, and hungry-ghosts. 

[Daeluin]

Before human immortal is ghost immortal. To say that most people are not at the stage of human immortal, but to say that they are also not at the stage of ghost immortal... doesn't make sense. There is nothing lower than ghost immortal. 

 

Here is my sense, which may be right or wrong or both at once! When born, human needs to expand the energy into the vessel to be able to stand between heaven and earth, and in order to bring the parts back into a whole. The vessels and meridians cycling in completion. Perhaps then we can call this human immortal. But most of us get blocked and leak, and are sick, not immortal at all. Perhaps some cultivate yin instead and when dead the yin patterns remain enough to persist on indefinitely as ghosts. Who knows? Labels are just us trying to articulate the lines that already exists in the ebb and flow between yin and yang.

[Daeluin]

 四字

 

How fascinating. There are so many. 子午卯酉? Liu Yiming has a whole chapter on this here. Or maybe ☰ ☷ ☲ ☵, the eternal forces which return to one. Or any number of 4 words which all mean the same thing. Perhaps.

 

The more I study various branches such as positioning, calenderics, medicine, music, etc, the more apparent it becomes that certain cosmological concepts are used in the same way across all systems. Thus perhaps the keys to understanding the more mysterious sections of some texts might come not so much from a hidden transmission, but from awareness of what the only obvious meaning could be to any scholar of the time.

 

Last night I was reading more in this book, and in two pages written on feng shui I learned more about the subject than I have in entire books. It also spoke on the principle of lairs, which are basically places where the qi in a vein might circulate or temporarily pool but without coagulating as it might do when it transforms into something denser, causing it to sink. Thus these lairs are good places for animals to sleep and replenish their qi, but are not holes or caves where the qi would be more stagnant. Similar to how people like to build houses in thermal belts.

[Wu Ming Jen]

Ghost Immortal = living dead, caught in the material realm knowing nothing of spirit, the unformed, where they came from and return.

 

Ghost are not free thinkers they must be told what to do this is why they are possessed by others thoughts and beliefs.

 

 Someone who would actual vote for trump could be considered the living dead, there are many and nothing even worth discussing. In the context of immortality these are very low beings.

[Marblehead]

To be haunted eternally by the ghosts of politicians!  What a horrible thought.

[Daeluin]

shhhh... they might be listening....

[Walker]

Hi Walker

 

yes thats what i meant, then following your question decided to double check and found this commentary

 

大道之要，不外无为而为四字。

 

I wonder who the author of it is. Still think that i am right though.

 

 

Good. I have no idea if you ever won't think that you're right, no matter what information you're presented with, but I can shed more light on this question if it would please you for me to do so.

 

Doing so, however, will require me to make a trip to the library, maybe more than one, if I decide to look at the Daozang or if the book I need is checked out.

 

Since this will require a fair bit of my time and energy, I propose we make a deal. This brings me to my second question:

 

If I take the time to provide information about the background of the sentence in question, will you promise to discontinue any and all interaction with Opendao and Opendao's associates which Opendao and his associates construe as "trolling?"

 

Two clarifications:

 

-I offer only to provide information; I do not claim to have the ability to convince you that you're not right.

 

-It should be obvious to you by now what types of comments you make about Opendao's posts are unwelcome and constitute trolling. If it is not clear to you, then, if you answer yes to my question, you must leave it up to Opendao to decide.

 

I am not asking this question to "stick up" for Opendao or anybody else. I am making this request because, personally, I am tired of seeing your posts trailing on his. I find them disruptive and they detract from my enjoyment of this forum, as well as reduce my likelihood of participating here. If you will accept my selfish request, then I am happy to crack a few books to continue this conversation. If not, then, 随缘唄.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Walker