Ghost immortality

Taoist Texts · March 16, 2016

Good. I have no idea if you ever won't think that you're right, no matter what information you're presented with, but I can shed more light on this question if it would please you for me to do so.

Hi Walker! Yes, by all means;)

Doing so, however, will require me to make a trip to the library, maybe more than one, if I decide to look at the Daozang or if the book I need is checked out.

Since this will require a fair bit of my time and energy, I propose we make a deal. This brings me to my second question:

If I take the time to provide information about the background of the sentence in question, will you promise to discontinue any and all interaction with Opendao and Opendao's associates which Opendao and his associates construe as "trolling?"

Yours is very generous offer. And not at all bizarre, either!

If you will accept my selfish request, then I am happy to crack a few books to continue this conversation.

Well, you see Walker, selfishness is not the issue. Your having the goods is. The info of your proffer pertains to the neidan, which is a mystical object of rejuvenation and immortality. Unless you personally have created that object, your info is not very valuable, and since we are negotiating I must ascertain if you offer me a fair deal.

Have you created the neidan, Walker?

Walker · March 16, 2016

I have not.

I merely offer you a glimpse at secondary and primary textual references showing that your understanding of the sentence in question as well as your translation of it is quite possibly mistaken.

MooNiNite · March 16, 2016

Ghost Immortal = living dead, caught in the material realm knowing nothing of spirit, the unformed, where they came from and return.

Ghost are not free thinkers they must be told what to do this is why they are possessed by others thoughts and beliefs.

This is exactly what I have been saying.

Taoist Texts · March 16, 2016

I have not.

I know and I salute you for your honesty. However, always sad to see a gentleman tainting himself with a bunch of shameless profiteers.

I merely offer you a glimpse at secondary and primary textual references showing that your understanding of the sentence in question as well as your translation of it is quite possibly mistaken.

Its all right Walker. Two things:

first, i can find those references with a couple of clicks - its 21st century, no need for you to waste your valuable time for that;

second, - and i am sorry to be blunt, but man, because you (and your neidaneer friends) have not made the neidan - you do not know what you are talking about.

I on the other hand do know. Because i have made the neidan.

Infolad1 · March 17, 2016

Have you ever read "Journeys Out Of The Body- Robert A. Monroe?

Excellent reference Tibetan_Ice! Kudos!

Monroe's trilogy is required reading, for folks Interested In these sorts of things:

Journeys Out of the Body

http://www.amazon.com/Journeys-Out-Body-Robert-Monroe/dp/0385008619/ref=sr_1_1_twi_pap_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1458175861&sr=1-1&keywords=journeys+out+of+the+body

Far Journeys

http://www.amazon.com/Far-Journeys-Robert-Monroe/dp/0385231822/ref=pd_bxgy_14_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=1R53R5DGAJ4MW799E50D

Ultimate Journey

http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Journey-Robert-Monroe/dp/0385472080/ref=pd_bxgy_14_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=1HHMDZD48AXBWGWM5CM3

You also want to check out Tom Campbell's work, who was a student of Robert Monroe, helped him build

the Hemi-Sync system The Monroe Institute uses, Is a trained Physicist, and has traveled "Out Of Body" for

over 30 years. He's the "TC" that Monroe talks about In "Far Journeys".

(The more accurate term would be "Out of Mind". Your Consciousness Is non-local.

We're never "In the Body". In the words of Western occultist Lon Milo DuQuette,"It's All In Your Head. You Just

Don't Realize How Big Your Head Is". )

Here's his book, and YouTube Channel.

My Big TOE - The Complete Trilogy

http://www.amazon.com/My-Big-TOE-Complete-Trilogy/dp/0972509461/ref=pd_sim_14_4?ie=UTF8&dpID=51Rjnev%2BWIL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR108%2C160_&refRID=1CBVCBAZTH3Z3Z0SK2FP

YouTube Channel

https://www.youtube.com/user/twcjr44

Here's the playlist of a talk he gave In London, that will help clarify a number of the Issues discussed on this thread:

Physics, Metaphysics & the Consciousness Connection

And here's the link to the Powerpoint slides that go along with the above presentation:

http://www.my-big-toe.com/uploads/LondonLectureSlides.pdf

Great reference for folks Tibetan_Ice. thanks!

Cheers!

Walker · March 19, 2016

Lofty achievements! Well, it should be no problem for you to visit me in the flesh, no? It would most certainly creep me out at first if you materialize in my dwelling, but I promise, after I get over my initial discomfort, I will brew the best tea I have on hand. If it's not too much to ask, perhaps you can even boil the water atop your dantian, thereby helping me reduce my carbon footprint whilst we continue this tete a tete.

second, - and i am sorry to be blunt, but man, because you (and your neidaneer friends) have not made the neidan - you do not know what you are talking about.

I on the other hand do know. Because i have made the neidan.

Your claim, be it accurate or deluded, isn't germane to my point. On this site you've offered up translations that sometimes don't stand up in the face of a trusty Xinhua dictionary, and other times veer far away from what Daoist texts that have been studied for hundreds of years say, all the while also dispensing with simple logic--ie, in order to make five distinct characters become four, you simply discard one of them; in order to promote your notion that Zhongli Quan had no teacher, you blithely ignore the fact that any "easily found on the internet" hagiography names his master.

Perfect translation is impossible; mistakes are inevitable. Sloppiness is avoidable; stubborn attachment is a poor habit.

You might have some gongfu, maybe a lot of it. Thinking that means that you're incapable of making mistakes is simply megalomania, something one sees far more of amongst cultivators than actual gongfu, and also, just as troublingly if not more so, one sees in some a blend of actual accomplishment and megalomania. Not just to you, but to all of us: 戒之戒之!

Perhaps my hunch is incorrect. But to me your demeanor suggests a man who can't cope with seeing evidence that he's wrong, and who likes playing little games that others do not find amusing. Dan or no, these are not the marks of a particularly mature individual.

That.

Another rarefied achievement in this dusty world, eh?

Edited March 19, 2016 by Walker

Taoist Texts · March 19, 2016

Morning Walker;)

First of all on your kind request.

Out of respect to you personally i will meet it half-way.

First, today, one of those guys offered me to start a discussion with their teacher directly - i thanked and declined.

Second, i will place my answer to your last post not here, but in my little sandbox, where barely anyone will see it, lest it annoys someone here.

Third, i promise not to engage these folks, unless they attack other schools again, as is their wont.

You of course are very welcome to continue our pleasant chat in my PPF or here, as you see fit.

Thanks, man;)

Walker · March 19, 2016

I tip my hat to you

Infolad1 · March 21, 2016

Regarding the whole "You'll stay a Ghost Immortal forever" statement.

Here's the thing...

NO THING IS FOREVER.

"Reality" Is a Multi Level, Virtual Reality Simulation.

The ancients didn't have Oculus Rift, so they used different nomenclature

to describe the same thing.

The creator, prime mover, and foundation of this simulation, is Consciousness (Which Is Immaterial= NoThing/Not Matter).

I don't know If It's a translation Issue or what, but a lot of times, when various texts say "consciousness",

what they're actually talking about Is the personality, the self Image. What most folks think of as "me".

This is the false self, and not "The Real You".

People are avatars/game characters In this simulation. The core Self of these characters Is Consciousness.

What they normally think of as "Me" Is a mental construct.

Their "Mind" Isn't even In the body, It's non-local. The brain is just a receiver. It Isn't the mind.

We are NEVER "IN" the Body. A MAJOR misunderstanding/Error In a number of current systems.

Like every "thing", bodies are mental constructs. Limited, finite, conditioned structures that consciousness

utilizes as focal points.

Most of the writers of these alchemical texts were aware of this. This is one of the "traps" I

talked about previously. Intentionally set for folks not paying attention to what's being said.

Western Science actually figured this out In the early part of the 20th century. And It disturbed the hell out of them.

So they say,"quantum mechanics Is weird", and left It at that.

If you "Wake Up" to this reality, you can then function as the core Self. You can then travel through all of the various levels

of the simulation, with full Self Awareness. Call It what you will: "Rainbow Body", "Diamond Body", "The Body of Ausar

(Osiris)", "Atman", "Metatron", "Adam Kadmon", etc. Just different models for the same thing.

But these levels aren't forever. Your various personas/self images aren't forever. The only forever Is "I".

So you wouldn't stay a ghost Immortal forever. That's just silly. You don't stay any thing forever.

We're affected by these various states, to the extent that we stay attached to the human self Image.

A "Ghost" Is what In Ancient Egypt was known as the "Khaibit". Just the Qi/breath/vapor/plasma

that moves our vehicle, with some remnant memories (If you hadn't "awaken" before you transition

(aka Death), you eventually lose your memories/personality, "Dying The Second Death".

If "you" get a chance to Incarnate again, you don't remember any of this. It's like waking from a dream.

People with more energy do remember previous lives, vividly In fact, and there are many documented accounts

In various cultures throughout the world.

The various "Immortal" levels, are just various levels of wakefulness.

A Ghost Immortal could stay that way for 10 months, or 10 years, relative to our reference of time

(which people have to remember, Is different on the different levels of existence).

"Forever" Is relative. 100 years to you, Is 1 nanosecond for some other being.

Wiki Powers ACTIVATE!...

"Anicca or impermanence is understood by Buddhists as one of the three marks of existence, the others being dukkha (unsatisfactoriness) and anatta (non-selfhood). All things in the universe are understood by Buddhists to be characterised by these three marks of existence. According to the impermanence doctrine, human life embodies this flux in the aging process, the cycle of birth and rebirth (samsara), and in any experience of loss. This is applicable to all beings and their environs including devas (mortal gods). The Buddha taught that because conditioned phenomena are impermanent, attachment to them becomes the cause for future suffering (dukkha)."

Sometimes, even the writers of these wonderful texts forget the basics.

Every Thing Ends. It may take 10 seconds, or 10 Million Eons to do so, but It does.

All great stories end.

And then "you" aka "I" create a NEW one.

Because I, Consciousness, NEVER End.

We are all Incredibly blessed to even be having this conversation. To even know about these

realities. 99.9% of the people on this planet don't. So most of them will lose consciousness,

and wake up as yet another persona, probably the slave of another man, In whatever new dream

reality the people In power In their world create.

I just dealt with a friend's mother transitioning. They began showing up In my friend, and her daughter's dreams

(Theta brain wave state Is the location of the "Bardo", "Duat", "Heaven", "Hell", etc.), saying It was cold, dark,

and that they needed help. She transitioned In an upset state, according to readings that I did.

But she's got to go through that now. Her belief system didn't show her what she needed to do In life, to

avoid this. And she's going to have to lose consciousness because of It, and forget her life.

Don't let that be YOU. I know I'm not.

Just do the work to wake up. Build up to 3 to 4 hours of practice (both movement, and stillness work)

365 days a year, for 10 years, or so, (your mileage will vary), and You'll find out the details yourself directly,

If you do.

Everything else is just opinion, belief, and egoistic posturing, thus useless.

Cheers!

LaoZiDao · March 21, 2016

Infolad1, usually I would not have a problem, but since you claim to be a Neidan teacher, it becomes an issue. How about you stick to your Virtual Reality Simulation and Oculus Rift's, stop leading people astray to your with your creative new age ideas.

Since you claim to be a Neidan teacher, surely you can reference some Daoist Scriptures about your ideas. Maybe an easier task, how about Daoist definition and characters for 'ghost Immortal' which you seem to know so much about?

Infolad1 · March 21, 2016

Infolad1, usually I would not have a problem, but since you claim to be a Neidan teacher, it becomes an issue. How about you stick to your Virtual Reality Simulation and Oculus Rift's, stop leading people astray to your with your creative new age ideas.

Since you claim to be a Neidan teacher, surely you can reference some Daoist Scriptures about your ideas. Maybe an easier task, how about Daoist definition and characters for 'ghost Immortal' which you seem to know so much about?

Why all of the hostility LaoZiDao?

Leading people astray? Do really think the people on this forum are that weak?

I beg to differ, from what I've seen so far. LOL! You're a feisty bunch.

My ideas aren't New Age In the least. I made a point of clearly Indicating that what the

scriptures, texts, etc. discuss is the exact same thing as a virtual reality simulation.

Everyone's just using different words. That's all.

I've both cross referenced, and practiced these processes, for 20 years now.

I'm not a slave to dogma. Does it work? That's my yardstick. Also I teach general audiences,

and advanced practitioners, so I utilize terminology that folks can relate to.

Also, these processes are non-denominational. Every culture has a group that understands the alchemical

process. But since everyone uses different terminology, and come from different cultural paradigms,

they all think they're saying something different, when they're not.

I was very clear In other posts that new folks should find a teacher, with a system that actually works,

versus useless Intellectual discussions that lead nowhere.

I teach a number of things. Tai Chi Quan, Meditation, Cosmology, Qigong, Neigong, Zhan Zhaung, nutrition,

fitness, Illustration, writing, visual storytelling, and other things. I never said that I was a "Neidan Teacher" exclusively.

I teach people for two established schools. One Is the Wutang system of Grandmaster Liu Yun Qiao. The other is an International Ancient Egyptian/Taoist Organization. I've also learned the first level (Iron Crotch/Iron Body Qigong) of

Grandmaster Tu Jin-Sheng's system,directly from him. I'm not speaking In an official capacity for any of them, on this

forum. I'm talking as an individual, doing what I always do. Helping people with Information maps garnered from my

experience, so they can cut through all of the BS Inherent In pursuing actual practical, working cultivation

knowledge.

I keep things simple on purpose. Who cares if you can recite the Surrangama Sutra chapter, and verse,

If you've got no gongfu transformations, never "Woke Up", and lose consciousness like everyone else

when you transition?

I've activated Tai Hsi, Ching An, The River Chariot, and formed the Yellow Court. I can physically show that I'm

at the "Qi Into Shen" stage of cultivation. Both my breathing, and digestive system have changed. All low level

transformations, but I can show them. I can't show the noumenal transformations (yet), but they're also there.

Oh yeah. And I can lift 120 lbs. with my privates. (I should be at 200 lbs., by year's end). Iron Crotch Helped kickstart a lot

of the above. (And for the record, other than the pyrogenesis, I've seen Master Tu do everything that John Chang does.

And he's In the US, on the West coast. Just have $3K ready to start, not Including airfare, and lodging).

But you want definitions. Happy to oblige. ...

Xian (Chinese: 仙/仚/僊; pinyin: xiān; Wade–Giles: hsien) is a Chinese word for an enlightened person, translatable in English as:

"spiritually immortal; transcendent; super-human; celestial being" (in Daoist/Taoist philosophy and cosmology)
"physically immortal; immortal person; immortalist; saint" (in Daoist religion and pantheon)
"alchemist; one who seeks the elixir of life; one who practices longevity techniques" or by extension "(alchemical, dietary, qigong) methods for attaining immortality" (in Chinese alchemy)
"wizard; magician; shaman" (in Chinese mythology)
"genie; elf, fairy; nymph" (in popular Chinese literature, 仙境 xian jing is "fairyland", Faerie)
"sage living high in the mountains; mountain-man; hermit; recluse" (folk etymology for the character 仙)
"immortal (talent); accomplished person; celestial (beauty); marvelous; extraordinary" (metaphorical modifier)

Xian semantically developed from meaning spiritual "immortality; enlightenment", to physical "immortality; longevity" involving methods such as alchemy, breath meditation, and T'ai chi ch'uan, and eventually to legendary and figurative "immortality".

The xian archetype is described by Victor H. Mair.

"They are immune to heat and cold, untouched by the elements, and can fly, mounting upward with a fluttering motion. They dwell apart from the chaotic world of man, subsist on air and dew, are not anxious like ordinary people, and have the smooth skin and innocent faces of children. The transcendents live an effortless existence that is best described as spontaneous. They recall the ancient Indian ascetics and holy men known as ṛṣi who possessed similar traits.1994:376"

According to the Digital Dictionary of Buddhism, Chinese xian (仙) can mean Sanskrit ṛṣi (rishi "inspired sage in the Vedas").

The word xian

The most famous Chinese compound of xiān is Bāxiān (八仙 "the Eight Immortals"). Other common words include xiānrén (仙人 sennin in Japanese, "immortal person; transcendent", see Xiānrén Dòng), xiānrénzhăng (仙人掌 "immortal's palm; cactus"), xiānnǚ (仙女 "immortal woman; female celestial; angel"), and shénxiān (神仙 "gods and immortals; divine immortal"). Besides humans, xiān can also refer to supernatural animals. The mythological húlijīng 狐狸精 (lit. "fox spirit") "fox fairy; vixen; witch; enchantress" has an alternate name of húxiān 狐仙 (lit. "fox immortal").

The etymology of xiān remains uncertain. The circa 200 CE Shiming, a Chinese dictionary that provided word-pun "etymologies", defines xiān (仙) as "to get old and not die," and explains it as someone who qiān (遷 "moves into") the mountains."

Edward H. Schafer (1966:204) defined xian as "transcendent, sylph (a being who, through alchemical, gymnastic and other disciplines, has achieved a refined and perhaps immortal body, able to fly like a bird beyond the trammels of the base material world into the realms of aether, and nourish himself on air and dew.)" Schafer noted xian was cognate to xian 䙴 "soar up", qian 遷 "remove", and xianxian 僊僊 "a flapping dance movement"; and compared Chinese yuren 羽人 "feathered man; xian" with English peri "a fairy or supernatural being in Persian mythology" (Persian pari from par "feather; wing").

Two linguistic hypotheses for the etymology of xian involve the Arabic language and Sino-Tibetan languages. Wu and Davis (1935:224) suggested the source was jinn, or jinni "genie" (from Arabic جني jinnī). "The marvelous powers of the Hsien are so like those of the jinni of the Arabian Nights that one wonders whether the Arabic word, jinn, may not be derived from the Chinese Hsien." Axel Schuessler's etymological dictionary (2007:527) suggests a Sino-Tibetan connection between xiān (Old Chinese *san or *sen) "'An immortal' … men and women who attain supernatural abilities; after death they become immortals and deities who can fly through the air" and Tibetan gšen < g-syen "shaman, one who has supernatural abilities, incl[uding] travel through the air".

The character and its variants

The word xiān is written with three characters 僊, 仙, or 仚, which combine the logographic "radical" rén (人 or 亻 "person; human") with two "phonetic" elements (see Chinese character classification). The oldest recorded xiān character 僊 has a xiān ("rise up; ascend") phonetic supposedly because immortals could "ascend into the heavens". (Compare qiān 遷 "move; transfer; change" combining this phonetic and the motion radical.) The usual modern xiān character 仙, and its rare variant 仚, have a shān (山 "mountain") phonetic. For a character analysis, Schipper (1993:164) interprets "'the human being of the mountain,' or alternatively, 'human mountain.' The two explanations are appropriate to these beings: they haunt the holy mountains, while also embodying nature."

The Shijing (220/3) contains the oldest occurrence of the character 僊, reduplicated as xiānxiān (僊僊 "dance lightly; hop about; jump around"), and rhymed with qiān (遷). "But when they have drunk too much, Their deportment becomes light and frivolous—They leave their seats, and [遷] go elsewhere, They keep [僊僊] dancing and capering." (tr. James Legge)[1] Needham and Wang (1956:134) suggest xian was cognate with wu 巫 "shamanic" dancing. Paper (1995:55) writes, "the function of the term xian in a line describing dancing may be to denote the height of the leaps. Since, "to live for a long time" has no etymological relation to xian, it may be a later accretion."

The 121 CE Shuowen Jiezi, the first important dictionary of Chinese characters, does not enter 仙 except in the definition for 偓佺 (Wo Quan "name of an ancient immortal"). It defines 僊 as "live long and move away" and 仚 as "appearance of a person on a mountaintop".

Textual references

This section chronologically reviews how Chinese texts describe xian "immortals; transcendents". While the early Zhuangzi, Chuci, and Liezi texts allegorically used xian immortals and magic islands to describe spiritual immortality, later ones like the Shenxian zhuan and Baopuzi took immortality literally and described esoteric Chinese alchemical techniques for physical longevity. On one the hand, neidan (內丹 "internal alchemy") techniques included taixi (胎息 "embryo respiration") breath control, meditation, visualization, sexual training, and Tao Yin exercises (which later evolved into Qigong and T'ai chi ch'uan). On the other hand, waidan (外丹 "external alchemy") techniques for immortality included alchemical recipes, magic plants, rare minerals, herbal medicines, drugs, and dietetic techniques like inedia.

The earliest representations of Chinese immortals, dating from the Han Dynasty, portray them flying with feathery wings (the word yuren 羽人 "feathered person" later meant "Daoist") or riding dragons. In Chinese art, xian are often pictured with symbols of immortality including the dragon, crane, fox, white deer, pine tree, peach, and mushroom.

Besides the following major Chinese texts, many others use both graphic variants of xian. Xian (仙) occurs in the Chunqiu Fanlu, Fengsu Tongyi, Qian fu lun, Fayan, and Shenjian; xian (僊) occurs in the Caizhong langji, Fengsu Tongyi, Guanzi, and Shenjian.

Zhuangzi

Two circa 3rd century BCE "Outer Chapters" of the Zhuangzi (莊子 "[book of] Master Zhuang") use the archaic character xian 僊. Chapter 11 has a parable about "Cloud Chief" (雲將) and "Big Concealment" (鴻濛) that uses the Shijing compound xianxian ("dance; jump"):

Big Concealment said, "If you confuse the constant strands of Heaven and violate the true form of things, then Dark Heaven will reach no fulfillment. Instead, the beasts will scatter from their herds, the birds will cry all night, disaster will come to the grass and trees, misfortune will reach even to the insects. Ah, this is the fault of men who 'govern'!"

"Then what should I do?" said Cloud Chief.

"Ah," said Big Concealment, "you are too far gone! [僊僊] Up, up, stir yourself and be off!"

Cloud Chief said, "Heavenly Master, it has been hard indeed for me to meet with you—I beg one word of instruction!"

"Well, then—mind‑nourishment!" said Big Concealment. "You have only to rest in inaction and things will transform themselves. Smash your form and body, spit out hearing and eyesight, forget you are a thing among other things, and you may join in great unity with the deep and boundless. Undo the mind, slough off spirit, be blank and soulless, and the ten thousand things one by one will return to the root—return to the root and not know why. Dark and undifferentiated chaos—to the end of life none will depart from it. But if you try to know it, you have already departed from it. Do not ask what its name is, do not try to observe its form. Things will live naturally end of themselves."

Cloud Chief said, "The Heavenly Master has favored me with this Virtue, instructed me in this Silence. All my life I have been looking for it, and now at last I have it!" He bowed his head twice, stood up, took his leave, and went away. (11, tr. Burton Watson 1968:122-3)

Chapter 12 uses xian when mythical Emperor Yao describes a shengren (聖人 "sagely person").

The true sage is a quail at rest, a little fledgling at its meal, a bird in flight who leaves no trail behind. When the world has the Way, he joins in the chorus with all other things. When the world is without the Way, he nurses his Virtue and retires in leisure. And after a thousand years, should he weary of the world, he will leave it and [上] ascend to [僊] the immortals, riding on those white clouds all the way up to the village of God. (12, tr. Watson 1968:130)

Without using the word xian, several Zhuangzi passages employ xian imagery, like flying in the clouds, to describe individuals with superhuman powers. For example, Chapter 1, within the circa 3rd century BCE "Inner Chapters", has two portrayals. First is this description of Liezi (below).

Lieh Tzu could ride the wind and go soaring around with cool and breezy skill, but after fifteen days he came back to earth. As far as the search for good fortune went, he didn't fret and worry. He escaped the trouble of walking, but he still had to depend on something to get around. If he had only mounted on the truth of Heaven and Earth, ridden the changes of the six breaths, and thus wandered through the boundless, then what would he have had to depend on? Therefore I say, the Perfect Man has no self; the Holy Man has no merit; the Sage has no fame. (1, tr. Watson 1968:32)

Second is this description of a shenren (神人 "divine person").

He said that there is a Holy Man living on faraway [姑射] Ku-she Mountain, with skin like ice or snow, and gentle and shy like a young girl. He doesn't eat the five grains, but sucks the wind, drinks the dew, climbs up on the clouds and mist, rides a flying dragon, and wanders beyond the Four Seas. By concentrating his spirit, he can protect creatures from sickness and plague and make the harvest plentiful. (1, tr. Watson 1968:33)

The authors of the Zhuangzi had a lyrical view of life and death, seeing them as complimentary aspects of natural changes. This is antithetical to the physical immortality (changshengbulao 長生不老 "live forever and never age") sought by later Daoist alchemists. Consider this famous passage about accepting death.

Chuang Tzu's wife died. When Hui Tzu went to convey his condolences, he found Chuang Tzu sitting with his legs sprawled out, pounding on a tub and singing. "You lived with her, she brought up your children and grew old," said Hui Tzu. "It should be enough simply not to weep at her death. But pounding on a tub and singing—this is going too far, isn't it?" Chuang Tzu said, "You're wrong. When she first died, do you think I didn't grieve like anyone else? But I looked back to her beginning and the time before she was born. Not only the time before she was born, but the time before she had a body. Not only the time before she had a body, but the time before she had a spirit. In the midst of the jumble of wonder and mystery a change took place and she had a spirit. Another change and she had a body. Another change and she was born. Now there's been another change and she's dead. It's just like the progression of the four seasons, spring, summer, fall, winter."

"Now she's going to lie down peacefully in a vast room. If I were to follow after her bawling and sobbing, it would show that I don't understand anything about fate. So I stopped. (18, tr. Watson 1968:191–2)

Alan Fox explains this anecdote about Zhuangzi's wife.

Many conclusions can be reached on the basis of this story, but it seems that death is regarded as a natural part of the ebb and flow of transformations which constitute the movement of Dao. To grieve over death, or to fear one's own death, for that matter, is to arbitrarily evaluate what is inevitable. Of course, this reading is somewhat ironic given the fact that much of the subsequent Daoist tradition comes to seek longevity and immortality, and bases some of their basic models on the Zhuangzi. (1995:100)

Chuci

The 3rd-2nd century BCE Chuci (楚辭 "Lyrics of Chu") anthology of poems uses xian 仙 once and xian 僊 twice, reflecting the disparate origins of the text. These three contexts mention the legendary Daoist xian immortals Chi Song (赤松 "Red Pine", see Kohn 1993:142–4) and Wang Qiao (王僑, or Zi Qiao 子僑). In later Daoist hagiography, Chi Song was Lord of Rain under Shennong, the legendary inventor of agriculture; and Wang Qiao was a son of King Ling of Zhou (r. 571–545 BCE), who flew away on a giant white bird, became an immortal and was never again seen.

The "Yuan You" (遠遊 "Far-off Journey") poem describes a spiritual journey into the realms of gods and immortals, frequently referring to Daoist myths and techniques.

My spirit darted forth and did not return to me,

And my body, left tenantless, grew withered and lifeless.

Then I looked into myself to strengthen my resolution,

And sought to learn from where the primal spirit issues.

In emptiness and silence I found serenity;

In tranquil inaction I gained true satisfaction.

I heard how once Red Pine had washed the world's dust off:

I would model myself on the pattern he had left me.

I honoured the wondrous powers of the [真人] Pure Ones,

And those of past ages who had become [仙] Immortals.

They departed in the flux of change and vanished from men's sight,

Leaving a famous name that endures after them. (tr. Hawkes 1985:194)

The "Xi shi" (惜誓 "Sorrow for Troth Betrayed") resembles the "Yuan You", and both reflect Daoist ideas from the Han period. "Though unoriginal in theme," says Hawkes (1985:239), "its description of air travel, written in a pre-aeroplane age, is exhilarating and rather impressive."

We gazed down of the Middle Land [China] with its myriad people

As we rested on the whirlwind, drifting about at random.

In this way we came at last to the moor of Shao-yuan:

There, with the other blessed ones, were Red Pine and Wang Qiao.

The two Masters held zithers tuned in perfect concord:

I sang the Qing Shang air to their playing.

In tranquil calm and quiet enjoyment,

Gently I floated, inhaling all the essences.

But then I thought that this immortal life of [僊] the blessed,

Was not worth the sacrifice of my home-returning. (tr. Hawkes 1985:240)

The "Ai shi ming" (哀時命 "Alas That My Lot Was Not Cast") describes a celestial journey similar to the previous two.

Far and forlorn, with no hope of return:

Sadly I gaze in the distance, over the empty plain.

Below, I fish in the valley streamlet;

Above, I seek out [僊] holy hermits.

I enter into friendship with Red Pine;

I join Wang Qiao as his companion. We send the Xiao Yang in front to guide us;

The White Tiger runs back and forth in attendance.

Floating on the cloud and mist, we enter the dim height of heaven;

Riding on the white deer we sport and take our pleasure. tr. Hawkes 1985:266)

The "Li Sao" (離騷 "On Encountering Trouble"), the most famous Chuci poem, is usually interpreted as describing ecstatic flights and trance techniques of Chinese shamans. The above three poems are variations describing Daoist xian.

Some other Chuci poems refer to immortals with synonyms of xian. For instance, "Shou zhi" (守志 "Maintaining Resolution), uses zhenren (真人 "true person", tr. "Pure Ones" above in "Yuan You"), which Wang Yi's commentary glosses as zhen xianren (真仙人 "true immortal person").

I visited Fu Yue, bestriding a dragon,

Joined in marriage with the Weaving Maiden,

Lifted up Heaven's Net to capture evil,

Drew the Bow of Heaven to shoot at wickedness,

Followed the [真人] Immortals fluttering through the sky,

Ate of the Primal Essence to prolong my life. (tr. Hawkes 1985:318)

Liezi

The Liezi (列子 "[book of] Master Lie"), which Louis Komjathy (2004:36) says "was probably compiled in the 3rd century CE (while containing earlier textual layers)", uses xian four times, always in the compound xiansheng (仙聖 "immortal sage").

Nearly half of Chapter 2 ("The Yellow Emperor") comes from the Zhuangzi, including this recounting of the above fable about Mount Gushe (姑射, or Guye, or Miao Gushe 藐姑射).

The Ku-ye mountains stand on a chain of islands where the Yellow River enters the sea. Upon the mountains there lives a Divine Man, who inhales the wind and drinks the dew, and does not eat the five grains. His mind is like a bottomless spring, his body is like a virgin's. He knows neither intimacy nor love, yet [仙聖] immortals and sages serve him as ministers. He inspires no awe, he is never angry, yet the eager and diligent act as his messengers. He is without kindness and bounty, but others have enough by themselves; he does not store and save, but he himself never lacks. The Yin and Yang are always in tune, the sun and moon always shine, the four seasons are always regular, wind and rain are always temperate, breeding is always timely, the harvest is always rich, and there are no plagues to ravage the land, no early deaths to afflict men, animals have no diseases, and ghosts have no uncanny echoes. (tr. Graham 1960:35)

Chapter 5 uses xiansheng three times in a conversation set between legendary rulers Tang (湯) of the Shang Dynasty and Ji (革) of the Xia Dynasty.

T'ang asked again: 'Are there large things and small, long and short, similar and different?'

—'To the East of the Gulf of Chih-li, who knows how many thousands and millions of miles, there is a deep ravine, a valley truly without bottom; and its bottomless underneath is named "The Entry to the Void". The waters of the eight corners and the nine regions, the stream of the Milky Way, all pour into it, but it neither shrinks nor grows. Within it there are five mountains, called Tai-yü, Yüan-chiao, Fang-hu, Ying-chou and P'eng-Iai. These mountains are thirty thousand miles high, and as many miles round; the tablelands on their summits extend for nine thousand miles. It is seventy thousand miles from one mountain to the next, but they are considered close neighbours. The towers and terraces upon them are all gold and jade, the beasts and birds are all unsullied white; trees of pearl and garnet always grow densely, flowering and bearing fruit which is always luscious, and those who eat of it never grow old and die. The men who dwell there are all of the race of [仙聖] immortal sages, who fly, too many to be counted, to and from one mountain to another in a day and a night. Yet the bases of the five mountains used to rest on nothing; they were always rising and falling, going and returning, with the ebb and flow of the tide, and never for a moment stood firm. The [仙聖] immortals found this troublesome, and complained about it to God. God was afraid that they would drift to the far West and he would lose the home of his sages. So he commanded Yü-ch'iang to make fifteen [鼇] giant turtles carry the five mountains on their lifted heads, taking turns in three watches, each sixty thousand years long; and for the first time the mountains stood firm and did not move.

'But there was a giant from the kingdom of the Dragon Earl, who came to the place of the five mountains in no more than a few strides. In one throw he hooked six of the turtles in a bunch, hurried back to his country carrying them together on his back, and scorched their bones to tell fortunes by the cracks. Thereupon two of the mountains, Tai-yü and Yüan-chiao, drifted to the far North and sank in the great sea; the [仙聖] immortals who were carried away numbered many millions. God was very angry, and reduced by degrees the size of the Dragon Earl's kingdom and the height of his subjects. At the time of Fu-hsi and Shen-nung, the people of this country were still several hundred feet high.' (tr. Graham 1960:97–8)

Penglai Mountain became the most famous of these five mythical peaks where the elixir of life supposedly grew, and is known as Horai in Japanese legends. The first emperor Qin Shi Huang sent his court alchemist Xu Fu on expeditions to find these plants of immortality, but he never returned (although by some accounts, he discovered Japan).

Holmes Welch (1957:88–97) analyzed the beginnings of Daoism, sometime around the 4th-3rd centuries BCE, from four separate streams: philosophical Daoism (Laozi, Zhuangzi, Liezi), a "hygiene school" that cultivated longevity through breathing exercises and yoga, Chinese alchemy and Five Elements philosophy, and those who sought Penglai and elixirs of "immortality". This is what he concludes about xian.

It is my own opinion, therefore, that though the word hsien, or Immortal, is used by Chuang Tzu and Lieh Tzu, and though they attributed to their idealized individual the magic powers that were attributed to the hsien in later times, nonetheless the hsien ideal was something they did not believe in—either that it was possible or that it was good. The magic powers are allegories and hyperboles for the natural powers that come from identification with Tao. Spiritualized Man, P'eng-lai, and the rest are features of a genre which is meant to entertain, disturb, and exalt us, not to be taken as literal hagiography. Then and later, the philosophical Taoists were distinguished from all other schools of Taoism by their rejection of the pursuit of immortality. As we shall see, their books came to be adopted as scriptural authority by those who did practice magic and seek to become immortal. But it was their misunderstanding of philosophical Taoism that was the reason they adopted it. (Welch 1957:95)

Shenxian zhuan

The Shenxian zhuan (神仙傳 Biographies of Spirit Immortals") is a hagiography of xian. Although it was traditionally attributed to Ge Hong (283–343 CE), Komjathy (2004:43) says, "The received versions of the text contain some 100-odd hagiographies, most of which date from 6th-8th centuries at the earliest."

According to the Shenxian zhuan, there are four schools of immortality:

Qì (气—“Pneumas”): Breath control and meditation. Those who belong to this school can

"...blow on water and it will flow against its own current for several paces; blow on fire, and it will be extinguished; blow at tigers or wolves, and they will crouch down and not be able to move; blow at serpents, and they will coil up and be unable to flee. If someone is wounded by a weapon, blow on the wound, and the bleeding will stop. If you hear of someone who has suffered a poisonous insect bite, even if you are not in his presence, you can, from a distance, blow and say in incantation over your own hand (males on the left hand, females on the right), and the person will at once be healed even if more than a hundred li away. And if you yourself are struck by a sudden illness, you have merely to swallow pneumas in three series of nine, and you will immediately recover.

But the most essential thing [among such arts] is fetal breathing. Those who obtain [the technique of] fetal breathing become able to breathe without using their nose or mouth, as if in the womb, and this is the culmination of the way [of pneumatic cultivation]." (Campany 2002:21)

Fàn (饭—“Diet”): Ingestion of herbal compounds and abstention from the Sān Shī Fàn (三尸饭—“Three-Corpses food”)—Meats (raw fish, pork, dog, leeks, and scallions) and grains. The Shenxian zhuan uses this story to illustrate the importance of bigu "grain avoidance":

"During the reign of Emperor Cheng of the Han, hunters in the Zhongnan Mountains saw a person who wore no clothes, his body covered with black hair. Upon seeing this person, the hunters wanted to pursue and capture him, but the person leapt over gullies and valleys as if in flight, and so could not be overtaken. [but after being surrounded and captured, it was discovered this person was a 200 plus year old woman, who had once been a concubine of Qin Emperor Ziying. When he had surrendered to the 'invaders of the east', she fled into the mountains where she learned to subside on 'the resin and nuts of pines' from an old man. Afterwards, this diet 'enabled [her] to feel neither hunger nor thirst; in winter [she] was not cold, in summer [she] was not hot.']

The hunters took the woman back in. They offered her grain to eat. When she first smelled the stink of grain, she vomited, and only after several days could she tolerate it. After little more than two years of this [diet], her body hair fell out; she turned old and died. Had she not been caught by men, she would have become a transcendent." (Campany 2002:22–23)

Fángzhōng Zhī Shù (房中之术—“Arts of the Bedchamber”): Sexual yoga. (Campany 2002:30–31) According to a discourse between the Yellow Emperor and the immortaless Sùnǚ (素女—“Plain Girl”), one of the three daughters of Hsi Wang Mu,

“The sexual behaviors between a man and woman are identical to how the universe itself came into creation. Like Heaven and Earth, the male and female share a parallel relationship in attaining an immortal existence. They both must learn how to engage and develop their natural sexual instincts and behaviors; otherwise the only result is decay and traumatic discord of their physical lives. However, if they engage in the utmost joys of sensuality and apply the principles of yin and yang to their sexual activity, their health, vigor, and joy of love will bear them the fruits of longevity and immortality. (Hsi 2002:99–100)

The White Tigress Manual, a treatise on female sexual yoga, states,

“A female can completely restore her youthfulness and attain immortality if she refrains from allowing just one or two men in her life from stealing and destroying her [sexual] essence, which will only serve in aging her at a rapid rate and bring about an early death. However, if she can acquire the sexual essence of a thousand males through absorption, she will acquire the great benefits of youthfulness and immortality.” (Hsi 2001:48)

Dān (丹—"Alchemy", literally "Cinnabar"): Elixir of Immortality.(Campany 2002:31)

Baopuzi

The 4th century CE Baopuzi (抱朴子 "[book of] Master Embracing Simplicity"), which was written by Ge Hong, gives some highly detailed descriptions of xian.

The text lists three classes of immortals:

Tiānxiān (天仙—“Celestial Immortal”): The highest level.

Dìxiān (地仙—“Earth Immortal”): The middle level.

Shījiě xiān (尸解仙—"Escaped-by-means-of-a-stimulated-corpse-simulacrum Immortal", literally "Corpse Untie Immortal"): The lowest level. This is considered the lowest form of immortality since a person must first “fake” their own death by substituting a bewitched object like a bamboo pole, sword, talisman or a shoe for their corpse or slipping a type of Death certificate into the coffin of a newly departed paternal grandfather, thus having their name and "allotted life span" deleted from the ledgers kept by the Sīmìng (司命—"Director of allotted life spans", literally "Controller of Fate"). Hagiographies and folktales abound of people who seemingly die in one province, but are seen alive in another. Mortals who choose this route must cut off all ties with family and friends, move to a distant province, and enact the Ling bao tai xuan yin sheng zhi fu (靈寳太玄隂生之符—“Numinous Treasure Talisman of the Grand Mystery for Living in Hiding”) to protect themselves from heavenly retribution. (Campany 2002:52–60)

However, this is not a true form of immortality. For each misdeed a person commits, the Director of allotted life spans subtracts days and sometimes years from their allotted life span. This method allows a person to live out the entirety of their allotted lifespan (whether it be 30, 80, 400, etc.) and avoid the agents of death. But the body still has to be transformed into an immortal one, hence the phrase Xiānsǐ hòutuō (先死後脱—“The ‘death’ is apparent, [but] the sloughing off of the body’s mortality remains to be done.”)

Sometimes the Shījiě are employed by heaven to act as celestial peace keepers. Therefore, they have no need for hiding from retribution since they are empowered by heaven to perform their duties. There are three levels of heavenly Shījiě:

Dìxià zhǔ (地下主—“Agents Beneath the Earth”): Are in charge of keeping the peace within the Chinese underworld. They are eligible for promotion to earthbound immortality after 280 years of faithful service.

Dìshàng zhǔzhě (地上主者—"Agents Above the Earth"): Are given magic talismans which prolong their lives (but not indefinitely) and allow them to heal the sick and exorcize demons and evil spirits from the earth. This level was not eligible for promotion to earthbound immortality.

Zhìdì jūn (制地君—"Lords Who Control the Earth"): A heavenly decree ordered them to "disperse all subordinate junior demons, whether high or low [in rank], that have cause afflictions and injury owing to blows or offenses against the Motion of the Year, the Original Destiny, Great Year, the Kings of the Soil or the establishing or breaking influences of the chronograms of the tome. Annihilate them all." This level was also not eligible for promotion to immortality.

These titles were usually given to humans who had either not proven themselves worthy of or were not fated to become immortals. One such famous agent was Fei Changfang, who was eventually murdered by evil spirits because he lost his book of magic talismans. However, some immortals are written to have used this method in order to escape execution. (Campany 2002:52–60)

Ge Hong wrote in his book The Master Who Embraces Simplicity,

The [immortals] Dark Girl and Plain Girl compared sexual activity as the intermingling of fire [yang/male] and water [yin/female], claiming that water and fire can kill people but can also regenerate their life, depending on whether or not they know the correct methods of sexual activity according to their nature. These arts are based on the theory that the more females a man copulates with, the greater benefit he will derive from the act. Men who are ignorant of this art, copulating with only one or two females during their life, will only suffice to bring about their untimely and early death. (Hsi 2001:48)

The Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji (鐘呂傳道集/钟吕传道集 "Anthology of the Transmission of the Dao from Zhong[li Quan] to Lü [Dongbin]") is associated with Zhongli Quan (2nd century CE?) and Lü Dongbin (9th century CE), two of the legendary Eight Immortals. It is part of the so-called “Zhong-Lü” (鍾呂) textual tradition of internal alchemy (neidan). Komjathy (2004:57) describes it as, "Probably dating from the late Tang (618–906), the text is in question-and-answer format, containing a dialogue between Lü and his teacher Zhongli on aspects of alchemical terminology and methods."

The Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji lists five classes of immortals:

Guǐxiān (鬼仙—"Ghost Immortal"): A person who cultivates too much yin energy. These immortals are likened to Vampires because they drain the life essence of the living, much like the fox spirit. Ghost immortals do not leave the realm of ghosts.

Rénxiān (人仙—Human Immortal”): Humans have an equal balance of yin and yang energies, so they have the potential of becoming either a ghost or immortal. Although they continue to hunger and thirst and require clothing and shelter like a normal human, these immortals do not suffer from aging or sickness. Human immortals do not leave the realm of humans. There are many sub-classes of human immortals, as discussed above under Shījiě xiān.

Dìxiān (地仙—“Earth Immortal”): When the yin is transformed into the pure yang, a true immortal body will emerge that does not need food, drink, clothing or shelter and is not affected by hot or cold temperatures. Earth immortals do not leave the realm of earth. These immortals are forced to stay on earth until they shed their human form.

Shénxiān (神仙—"Spirit Immortal"): The immortal body of the earthbound class will eventually change into vapor through further practice. They have supernatural powers and can take on the shape of any object. These immortals must remain on earth acquiring merit by teaching mankind about the Tao. Spirit immortals do not leave the realm of spirits. Once enough merit is accumulated, they are called to heaven by a celestial decree.

Tiānxiān (天仙—“Celestial Immortal”): Spirit immortals who are summoned to heaven are given the minor office of water realm judge. Over time, they are promoted to oversee the earth realm and finally become administrators of the celestial realm. These immortals have the power to travel back and forth between the earthly and celestial realms.

Śūraṅgama Sūtra

The Śūraṅgama Sūtra, in an approach to Taoist teachings, discusses the characteristics of ten types of xian who exist between the world of devas ("gods") and that of human beings. This position, in Buddhist literature, is usually occupied by asuras ("Titans", "antigods"). These xian are not considered true cultivators of samadhi ("unification of mind"), as their methods differ from the practice of dhyāna ("meditation").[2][3]

Dìxiān (Dìxíng xiān 地行仙, "earth-travelling immortals") – Xian who constantly ingest special food called fuer (服餌).

Fēixiān (Fēixíng xiān 飛行仙, “flying immortals”) – Xian who constantly ingest certain herbs and plants.

Yóuxiān (Yóuxíng xiān 遊行仙, “roaming immortals”) – Xian who “transform” by constantly ingesting metals and minerals.

Kōngxiān (Kōngxíng xiān 空行仙, “void-travelling immortals”) – Xian who perfect their qi and essence through unceasing movement and stillness (dongzhi 動止).

Tiānxiān (Tiānxíng xiān 天行仙, “heaven-travelling immortals”) – Xian who constantly practice control of their fluids and saliva.

Tōngxiān (Tōngxíng xiān 通行仙, “all-penetrating immortals”) – Xian who constantly practice the inhalation of unadulterated essences.

Dàoxiān (Dàoxínɡ xiān 道行仙, “immortals of the Way”) – Xian who achieve transcendence through unceasing recitation of spells and prohibitions.

Zhàoxiān (Zhàoxíng xiān 照行仙, “illuminated immortals”) – Xian who achieve transcendence through constant periods of thought and recollection.

Jīngxiān (Jīngxíng xiān 精行仙, “seminal immortals”) – Xian who have mastered the stimuli and responses of intercourse.

Juéxiān (Juéxíng xiān 絕行仙, “absolute immortals”) – Xian who "have attained the end" and perfected their awakening through constant transformation.

I trust that this satisfies your need for references LaoZiDao

Do the work, and you won't need a book. Books are essential In the beginning, but they only take you so far.

I trust that you're getting your 3+ hours daily of cultivation time, and have the Initial transformations to show for it?

If not, I would politely suggest that you, and everyone else who's serious about this, get to It. Our time here Is limited,

If you don't put the work In.

I want people to be successful In this. You can take, or leave everything I say. I don't want anyone to take what I say at face value.

Believe nothing. ESPECIALLY appeals to authority from books that may, or may not have the real deal in them, and

ESPECIALLY anonymous Poindexters like me!

Find out for yourself.

Do your own research.

Do your own work.

And In time, you'll know.

Cheers!

MooNiNite · March 22, 2016

Why all of the hostility LaoZiDao?

Awesome post!

Where does an Earth immortal go after human body death?

Second,

It is interesting that you refer to the Earth immortal as pure yang. Usually that is only connected with a spiritual immortal, one who has achieved "enlightenment", xiantian fusion...

Why refer to the earth immortal as pure yang?

MooNiNite · March 22, 2016

Rénxiān (人仙—Human Immortal”): Humans have an equal balance of yin and yang energies, so they have the potential of becoming either a ghost or immortal. Although they continue to hunger and thirst and require clothing and shelter like a normal human, these immortals do not suffer from aging or sickness. Human immortals do not leave the realm of humans. There are many sub-classes of human immortals, as discussed above under Shījiě xiān.

Human immortal doesn't suffer from aging? Can you explain? To me, they most certainly do. Even at that level fountain of youth (which doesnt prevent aging, only deters it, hasn't even been reached.)

Usually Human Immortal is associated with simply a long human lifespan.

Edited March 22, 2016 by MooNiNite

Zhou Zhouqi · March 22, 2016

Why all of the hostility LaoZiDao?

{..}

Cheers!

That's very informative exact copy-paste from Wikipedia Infolad1. Thanks, I really appreciate it!

Btw, may just say that after a lot of lurking on this forum I find your writing style and insights incredible similar to SonOfTheGods' , to the point where it almost feels like you two are the same person ) . Is he your teacher or do you two just share remarkably similar ideas?

Infolad1 · March 22, 2016

Human immortal doesn't suffer from aging? Can you explain? To me, they most certainly do. Even at that level fountain of youth (which doesnt prevent aging, only deters it, hasn't even been reached.)

Usually Human Immortal is associated with simply a long human lifespan.

Hi MooNiNite,

I'll have a detailed explanation for you later this afternoon.

As a preview, we have to be clear that we're utilizing models that are based upon speculation.

Unless we experience It, we don't know. It's a belief.

I've found that people on the cultivation path, have a bad habit of stating speculation, belief, and opinion

as truth. It really confuses things for folks.

But the conviction of belief can do some very amazing things, which I'll also touch upon later.

Cheers!

Brian · March 22, 2016

Hi MooNiNite,

I'll have a detailed explanation for you later this afternoon.

As a preview, we have to be clear that we're utilizing models that are based upon speculation.

Unless we experience It, we don't know. It's a belief.

I've found that people on the cultivation path, have a bad habit of stating speculation, belief, and opinion

as truth. It really confuses things for folks.

But the conviction of belief can do some very amazing things, which I'll also touch upon later.

Cheers!

I've found this is true for people in general, Infolad1 -- including those who reject the cultivation path.

Infolad1 · March 22, 2016

That's very informative exact copy-paste from Wikipedia Infolad1. Thanks, I really appreciate it!

Btw, may just say that after a lot of lurking on this forum I find your writing style and insights incredible similar to SonOfTheGods' , to the point where it almost feels like you two are the same person ) . Is he your teacher or do you two just share remarkably similar ideas?

Thanks Zhou Zhouqi!

I trust that my Wiki Gongfu Is adequate. I try to be as exact as possible.

LaoZiDao asked for references, and I gave them. Wikipedia had them all In one location,

which saved me a lot of time. I'll have the actual books listed In my "The Energy Cultivator's Handbook"

thread, over the next month, or so.

I'm here to help.

I like what you did there. You're a funny guy.

SOTG Is my spiritual brother, and fellow traveler, so thanks for the complement.

I'm based In Philadelphia. He's not. So no, we are not the same person.

I'm not a teenager, or a 20 something. I don't Indulge In silly games of that sort.

It's a waste of time, and I don't have time to waste.

Cheers!

Infolad1 · March 22, 2016

I've found this is true for people in general, Infolad1 -- including those who reject the cultivation path.

Excellent point Brian!

Most folks don't realize that about 90% of what they believe to be "true", Is actually

just hearsay, usually from figures of authority (School, Church, Parents, etc.).

It's THE primary source of problems In this world.

I've got to run, and teach a Tai Chi/Self-Defense class. I'll be back after 2pm EDT.

Cheers!

MooNiNite · March 22, 2016

Hi MooNiNite,

I'll have a detailed explanation for you later this afternoon.

As a preview, we have to be clear that we're utilizing models that are based upon speculation.

Unless we experience It, we don't know. It's a belief.

I've found that people on the cultivation path, have a bad habit of stating speculation, belief, and opinion

as truth. It really confuses things for folks.

But the conviction of belief can do some very amazing things, which I'll also touch upon later.

Cheers!

Who says what im saying is based on belief?

Infolad1 · March 22, 2016

Who says what im saying is based on belief?

If you're saying that you've had direct experience with these realities,

then no, It's not a belief. Which is what I said:

"Unless we experience It, we don't know. It's a belief."

Is that what you're saying? That you've experienced some of these levels?

Please clarify. Thanks.

Cheers!

Infolad1 · March 30, 2016

Awesome post!

Where does an Earth immortal go after human body death?

Second,

It is interesting that you refer to the Earth immortal as pure yang. Usually that is only connected with a spiritual immortal, one who has achieved "enlightenment", xiantian fusion...

Why refer to the earth immortal as pure yang?

Hi MooNiNite,

I apologize for the delay in replying. I had to do some research for the second part.

In answer to your first question, according to the model, once you shed the human form,

the Earth Immortal can travel throughout the Earth realm, until such time as they build

enough energy to transform Into a spiritual Immortal.

Our neck of the woods has some Interesting things about It, so I'm sure they won't get bored.

Great second question. I noticed that also. So I did some research. I hope that this answers It:

"By Hu Xuezhi

The Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji (鐘呂傳道集/钟吕传道集; Anthology of the Transmission of the Dao from Zhong[li Quan] to Lü [Dongbin]) is associated with Zhongli Quan (second century C.E.?) and Lü Dongbin (ninth century C.E.), two of the legendary Eight Immortals. It is part of the so-called “Zhong-Lü” (鍾呂) textual tradition of internal alchemy (neidan). The text, which probably dates from the late Tang (618-906) dynasty, is in question-and-answer format, containing a dialogue between Lü and his teacher Zhongli on aspects of alchemical terminology and methods.

The book emphasizes the united practices of xing and ming. As the contents said, "Just to practice the xing without any of ming is the first illness toward the practices of Tao, just to practice the inherited xing without any practice of dan 丹 (cinnabar) will result in the difficulties of transcending the yin spirit into the Saint even though generations passed. On the other hand, achieving the end processing of the practices of body but losing the inherited xing will be as same as the moment when we wish to see our faces we have no mirrors. This is just like an idiot who has got the longevity like the heaven and earth, or the one who has got the authority of the house treasures lacks of the power of decision making.”

The claims obviously denoted the important practices of both xing and ming. The transformation during the practices of ming kung, in the inner alchemy of Zhong-lu, is not like that of Quan Zhen sect; while as in the former, the body is a real physical body that can last as long as the heaven and earth. It implies that the ming kung is the training which can change the physical human body and not just deal with the xin and shen. The suppressing of the xin and the practices of xing kung only remains on the subjective level of changing in mind. This idea can also be found in the book:

"The burning of the three dan-tiens 丹田 (the storing pools of cinnabar) results in acquiring the dan 丹 (cinnabar) which permanently located in the lower abdomen. Further practices of the human form will finally attain the immortal body and becomes the De-xian 地仙 (the Earth Immortal)… When the entire yin transforms into the pure yang, it happens that a new body appears beyond the original body. At this moment the yang will turn the body into the immortal and thereafter, all other routines on earth will not be cared any more and then he returns to three mountains. We call it Shen-xian 神仙 (the Spirit Immortal)… (Emphasis Mine)

However, the Shen-xian hates to stay on earth and so, he passes the Tao to an extent that he accumulates the merits on the way with the widespread virtues. One day when he achieves the required level he will be honored with a heavenly memorial and back to the dong-tien 洞天 (the palace of the heaven).”

Here the immortal states are actually divided into five levels, named Gui-xian 鬼仙 (the Ghost Immortal), Ren-xian 人仙 (the Human Immortal), De-xian (the Earth Immortal), Shen-xian 神仙 (the Spirit Immortal) and Tien-xian 天仙 (the Heaven Immortal). The achievement of De-xian, Shen-xian and Tien-xian is entirely based on the level of practices toward the yang. But the most important point we have to concern is that those practices will transform the body into various states of immortality. This is a factual transformation. It thus shows the distinct arguments in the methodology of Wang Chung-yang. However, as said in his discourses, he still argued that the efforts of the practices would result in the appearance of dan-sha 丹砂 (cinnabar). And the brightness of this dan-sha was interpreted as the shen 神 (the pure yang) that could finally free from the body (shell) and wander through the space. This shen, as he said, is the lotus flower and the body left behind is the lotus root. The argument here is clearly a contradiction. Dan-sha should be the origin of the energy that could transform the body into the immortal state. And this should be a real physical change."

So the translation of the Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji I originally used should've been clearer of the fact that there's transitional stages between the various Immortal levels, and that's what's being described, the stages from Earth Immortal, the transitional

state, and then the Spirit Immortal level.

But It's all speculation, theory, and opinion at this point, until we get to these levels ourselves.

Here's some additional pitfalls to avoid, when cultivating.

This is a long excerpt from Bill Bodri's "The Insider’s Guide to the World’s Best and Worst Spiritual Paths and Practices":

"The Secrets to How the Seers Cultivated Immortal Bodies

There are many roads of spiritual practice you might pursue after you begin to correctly cultivate your chi and mai and initiate the kundalini phenomenon. Some ofthese roads of practice can be considered proper, and others can be considered inappropriate or improper. One particular path that will become open to you is the path of physical immortality that was a trademark of early Chinese Taoism.

In the Buddhist Surangama Sutra, which recorded a number of interesting dialogues between Shakyamuni Buddha and several of his students, there is a chapter that mentions ten types of Indian seers (rishis) or “immortals” who can live extremely long physical lives, even as long as several thousand years. These practitioners usually achieved their super-longevity through a particular set of cultivation practices that involved one or more of the following:

·special diets

·special herbs and medicines

·special mineral substances

·special breathing practices

·cultivating the hormones of the body

·absorbing the planetary essences of the sun and moon

·special mantras

·special mental practices

·certain types of sexual practice

·application of secret types of heavenly and earthly transformations

Even though these immortals can perpetuate their life in the human realm for incredibly long periods of time, and while the cultivation practices they use can sometimes lead beyond the Desire Realm, they only produce phenomenological results, rather than lead to the goal of enlightenment.

In effect, the adepts or seers known as “long-lived Immortals” achieved their longevity because they mastered a special form of one-pointed concentration. However, Buddha said that their spiritual practice is actually improper because they become fixed, or actually “stuck” in concentrating upon some particular delusion, and fixedly hold onto this thought with single-minded devotion. In other words, they cultivate samadhi incorrectly because they cling to the samadhi realm they reach. Nonetheless this single-mindedness of mental fixation, after their energy channels have been transformed, is actually strong enough to pull them through hundreds or even thousands of years of life.

This is an example of how powerful the mind can be, especially when the powers of the mind are connected to our chi, or life force. In other words, you can cultivate your mind to the stage where you can live almost forever in a physical form, but Shakyamuni did not say that this was the right type of samadhi you should be cultivating. He said it was not right because these Immortals cultivated samadhi incorrectly. This means there is a right way to cultivate samadhi, and a wrong way to do it.

Modern medicine will never be able to extend our life spans to the extent of the Immortals, but life extension is a definite possibility on the road of spiritual cultivation. To accomplish this physical immortality, spiritual practitioners must refrain from losing their jing (seminal essence) and chi, and must open up all the body’s chi channels clear to the bottom of their feet. They must also clean their small and large intestines so that they become empty of putrefied material. Furthermore,they must also accumulate the merit necessary for being able to live a long life, and must master the required level of one-pointed samadhi concentration.

These are all the requirements for super life extension, but you absolutely can achieve this sort of gong-fu with practice. However, that does not mean that this constitutes the correct road of spiritual practice. Rather, it is simply another of the many by-roads that branch off the one direct trail of pure spiritual cultivation.

Buddha mentioned that many of the Indian Immortals resorted to special herbs, minerals, mantra and mystical practices to lengthen their lives, but the most important point was that they all had to master a certain type of one-pointed samadhi concentration. This is actually why the long lived elders of most cultures are always mentioned in conjunction with a particular spiritual religion. In other words, if you want to cultivate health and longevity then you have to go about it by cultivating samadhi, and that sort of practice falls under the province of religious (spiritual)striving. This is why the long lived elders of most cultures are usually mentioned in conjunction with spiritual streams that emphasize samadhi attainments.

China, like India, also had a tradition of immortality seekers in Taoism, and these people are roughly equivalent to the class of Indian seers mentioned by Shakyamuni. The Chinese, who called them “Immortals,” classified these individuals differently than the Hindus and recognized five different classes or stages of these beings: Ghost Immortals, Human Immortals, Earthly Immortals, Heavenly Immortals, and Great Golden Immortals.

Most of these individuals were very advanced in their spiritual cultivation practice, but they lived apart from the human world so that they were not bothered by human beings and other human concerns. Other countries, such as Egypt, also have egendary accounts of immortality seekers. Modern day Burma still has a cultivation tradition of deathless immortals that is called the weikza-lam, which means that the individuals within this tradition follow “a path of occult knowledge.”

Whether an Immortal has achieved single-pointed concentration through mantra practice, visualization exercises, through cultivating their chi and mai (chi channels), or some other meditative method is not really the important thing. It does not matter because in settling for the cultivation of physical immortality, it indicates they have not achieved any great stage of transcendental wisdom. In fact, there is even a stage of immortality that is physically attainable by the great Arhats of Buddhism who have actually reached a very high stage of spiritual enlightenment, but it, too, is considered an “outside path” to the true enlightenment way.

The practices of the Immortals can definitely enable them to live very long lives,which is why they are classified as “Immortals” in the first place. In fact their special designation – this special accomplishment – indicates they should not be considered as either mortals, heavenly beings, or even asuras. Although they can be considered a special class of human beings above the ordinary rank, the Immortals definitely cannot be considered enlightened. In fact, most of these individuals remain stuck within the Realm of Desire because they still cannot attain to the Realm of Form with their meditative accomplishments.

To attain a stage of samadhi that reaches into the Realm of Form, it is necessary to rid oneself of any overt or even secret hidden desires for food and sex. This is one of the requirements for being able to mentally free oneself from the Desire Realm, as is the idea of being or possessing a physical body. You can understand that achieving samadhi is not an easy feat to attain, and because the continuity of its spiritual transmission is quite fragile, samadhi cultivation usually becomes a protected practice enveloped or enshrouded by an outer coating of religion for the masses.

On an esoteric level, samadhi not only requires a transformation of your chi, and the ability to detach from your body and sexual desire, but we can also say you cannot accomplish a samadhi attainment unless you open up the heart chakra to some extent. Thus if someone tells you that you have opened your heart chakra but you still have not been able to enter samadhi and meditatively attain to the Realm of Form, they are just deceiving you, or you are just cheating yourself.

In particular, if you cannot attain to the Realm of Form in meditative cultivation, you are not yet capable of becoming enlightened, nor of even generating an Enjoyment body (sambhogakaya or bao-shen) from transforming your energies as mentioned in Esoteric Buddhism. This is why the Zen masters, who seek enlightenment as directly as possible, many times advise practitioners to recite the Zhunti mantra1 in their cultivation. This is one of the two mantras that can help open up your heart chakra and enable you to access prajna transcendental wisdom.

Even though most Immortals remain within the Realm of Desire, because they have highly developed their powers of one-pointed concentration for such a long period of time, it is possible that they can become enlightened in an instant if they are shown the correct path of cultivation and given a chance to reach the proper sort of awakening. If they are lucky enough to meet a good teacher, and all the right circumstances come together, they can become enlightened immediately.

This was the case of the Taoist immortal Lu Ch’un-yang, who was author of the “Hundred Word Inscription” which describes the cultivation practices that will bring about the stage of the Immortals and yet higher spiritual attainments. This poem collapses the entire road of spiritual cultivation into just a few words, and has been used to train countless generations of spiritual adepts.

Lu Ch’un-yang’s story is a very instructive one. For years he had cultivated his internal chi energy to the point where he had reached the stage of the Immortals. He could live forever in the world without dying, and had attained many spiritual powers such as making himself invisible and projecting a double of his physical self. Becauseof his internal energy, like the Tibetan adept Milarepa he could even fly through the air. One day he was actually flying through the sky and noticed a particularly auspicious aura around a mountain. When he dropped down to investigate the source of the aura, all he could find was what appeared to be an unimpressive old monk, Zen master Huang-lung Nan, lecturing to a group of students.

When the monk found out that the visitor was Lu Ch’un-yang, he insulted his famous visitor by saying, “I thought from your reputation that you were someone special,only now I see you are just a ghost guarding a corpse.” In other words, “You have cultivated this body of yours so that it might go on living forever, but since this is not the real you, you are just clinging to a dead material shell.

”Lu Ch’un-yang shot back: “The true man possesses the elixir of immortality inside. What is that useless body of yours worth compared to this?” but Zen master Huang-lung Nan calmly countered, “Even if you can drag your corpse through eternity without dying, in the end this is of little significance.”

Lu Ch’un-yang became very angry at this slight and drawing upon his superpowers, threw his sword at the Zen master to frighten the old monk. The sword sliced through the air headed at the master but surprisingly, stopped in front of the monk,reversed itself, and then started to fly back toward Lu Ch’un-yang! Lu Ch’un-yang was incredulous at this turn of events. How was this counter-feat possible from an old bald-headed monk who did not exhibit any signs of superpowers at all? Lu Ch’un-yang never imagined that a Zen monk could be so powerful.

Lu Ch’un-yang relaxed his defenses and opened up a little at this event, and then started to engage the old monk in dialogue to see what he had to say. Zen master Huang-lung Nan challenged him to reveal what he had learned through his many years of cultivating his physical nature. Master Huang-lung Nan said, “You do not have to resort to this sort of technique. Just a moment ago you said you had some real ability. Tell me what spiritual truth you have realized.”

Because of the subsequent conversation, Lu Ch’un-yang realized that he had been holding tightly onto the view of an inherent ego, and clinging to his physical body rather than cultivating emptiness. When Master Huang-lung Nan taught him that Zen meant emptying the mind of concepts, judgements, opinions and ego, Lu Ch’un-yang finally awakened in enlightenment, and later wrote a verse to commemorate his realization:

I throw away the gourd and drop the zither,

I don’t long for the gold in the mercury any longer.

After I saw Master Huang-lung just once,

I finally realized that I had always been wrongly using my mind.

There are many stories like this which all show that enlightenment requires adherence to consistent and determined spiritual practice, and continually working until the right circumstances come together for an awakening. From this story we can also see that laying a correct spiritual foundation through consistent training and practice can result in instantaneous enlightenment when one is prompted correctly.

Simply “practicing the physical nature,” which includes cultivating your body’s energy channels and chi, will not result in spiritual enlightenment. However, it can indeed banish sickness and help prolong life. These results correspond to a physical purification that can in turn help you to progress on the spiritual path. The ultimate inadequacy, however, of cultivating your physical form is the big problem we have been trying to emphasize for those who practice yoga, Taoism, Tantra and Esoteric Buddhism. As an ancient saying tells us:

Merely to cultivate your physical body in order to prolong life, but not to practice to realize your self-nature, is the first type of cultivation mistake. But to practice only to realize the self-nature, while neglecting to support

the alchemical transformations within the human body, will result in you cultivating for aeons without becoming enlightened."

I hope that this Is helpful.

Cheers!

Orion · April 2, 2016

I've gone through periods of intense near-death illness in my life and I can attest to being harassed by low life presences during those times. Can't say that my body was ever possessed but I did experience disturbances in my consciousness, and the sense that there were presences around who were feeding off my pain or even enhancing it for their own amusement. When I was younger I had no defense but I learned techniques as I got older to protect myself.

In classical acupuncture there are 13 Ghost Points, as expounded upon by Sun Si-Miao. In modern acupuncture they are used exclusively to treat physical health conditions. Traditionally, it was believed that if the body's treasures (yin, yang, qi, blood, jing, shen) were severely depleted, then spirits could enter the body or at the very least mess with you. The ghost points were used to expel these influences, and seal up the body from invasion. The core, foundational reason that spirits can invade is either because the body becomes too weak to house the shen (spirit) completely and so the vessel becomes partially vacant, or the shen itself becomes highly disturbed (trauma, emotions, etc.) and can no longer govern the stable functions of the qi dynamic.

I've been having OBEs and astral travel since I was a kid, it just happened naturally. As a child I had some highly disturbing experiences - not possession related, but not being able to fully "come back". In modern science they attribute night terrors in children to not being able to properly exit REM sleep, so you linger in between REM and wakefulness; but in my experience it was an inability to fully re-enter my body. It really sucked. It went away into adulthood.

I question if the body can be possessed by something else during an OBE. Your weiqi fields do not disappear just because you leave. You'd have to already be pretty weak + out of body to maybe get fully invaded, and even then there are psychic mechanisms which would immediately fling you back into your body if something goes wrong. That's been my experience. There's also a difference between being invaded, and something being attached to you that's influencing you. One can look like the other, but one is way more severe than the other. Attached things are way more common than true possession.

That said, I've encountered things in the astral plane that, to my impression, posed a serious threat. One was a portal or vortex of some kind that strongly, magnetically was sucking everything into it, and it was alive. I knew that if I went inside that thing I might never come back. I've also encountered astral low lives trying to attack me, but all you really have to do is raise your vibration and go "above" them, and they can't follow you. It's what I've always naturally done... I don't know if it's something people normally have to train to do or not.

The main risk with astral travel, in my opinion, is not that you can be invaded or encounter scary things, it's that things can follow you back to your body and just mess with your life in general. The cord that joins your astral form to your body is like a highway that tells them exactly where to find you. So although they may not invade you, they may hang around your home and try to mess with your life for their own amusement. If your life in general is balanced, your home and person are purified, and you are of strong character, they usually lose interest pretty fast though.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Orion

SpiritME · April 2, 2016

I have a question: What is the light that Ghosts that get stuck here have to go in?

Is that the doorway to the spiritual realm and why can they go through on there own?

MooNiNite · April 3, 2016

I have a question: What is the light that Ghosts that get stuck here have to go in?

Is that the doorway to the spiritual realm and why can they go through on there own?

I'm not sure. But bringing entities to the light is an occurrence that is referenced by mediums all over the world. Not just daoists, but even people in Iceland.

Wells · April 3, 2016

.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Wells

Ghost immortality

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