an opinion of the Kunlun method

[Sunya]

I introduced a friend of mine to Kunlun recently to get an opinion on it, i trust his knowledge and wisdom on these matters and he gave me a pretty concise answer that i feel many of you will appreciate reading.

 

If I look the cathartic releases of Kunlun - heat, sweating, emotional outbursts - that is what you can get with ungrounded Fire methods: A lot of energy hits a blockage and makes it go in one big release, possibly many. Since every blockage release also can be accompanied by toxin release, this brute force approach can be interpreted like shock to your emotional and energetic system - the sweating is a typical detoxification reaction, the crying and hysterical laughter typical of cathartic methods.

 

In a water method these would have been neutralised and grounded properly, natural flow would have been restored, like applying a bit more water pressure soaks into a sand barrier and then starts to carry it away. In a fire method you simply run as much current as you can over the wire, burning through resistance. If you are not gifted genetically/energetically with a strong enough wire, damage can occur. Side effects are typical of such an approach.

 

Robert's NEW is BTW a very good compromise. Since it offers blockage cleaning methods it can be used to "clean the wire" before "running current".

 

Fire methods are typical for power seekers, while water methods appeal a bit more to insight seekers. Fire builds power, Water relaxes. Fire creates, Water uncovers. Many meditation methods, anything where you gently focus your attention on issues to resolve them, are really Water methods, they just don't spell it out as energy work or name it like that. Many of the explicit energy work schools are more towards the Fire side of the continuum.

 

At least at Level 1 I would categorise Kunlun as pure (if not extreme) Fire method. If you actually aim or welcome side effects, then it is not a Water method. These are typical signs of overworking yourself, true to the goal-oriented nature of Fire methods. Fire sets a goal and works relentlessly towards it, creating it. Water looks what is there already, and uncovers it.

 

Both methods have the potential for enlightenment. Fire offers more pitfalls. It offers power and distracts from true insight. Both in Water and Fire you have to overcome the desire for ego reinforcement, power and attachment. But I found that many Fire schools neglect this aspect. It is very important to be aware of the pitfalls and keep the intent of freeing yourself, It is very important to see the trapping of power and minimise the use of power, to uproot the ego instead of reinforcing it.

 

In the end in any school you have the potential to fall beside the wayside and into the power trip. When a Water scholar uncovers the psychic and causal/karmic bodies the forces of creation and enormous knowledge is within its reach. It is a time of trial, where all that stands between you and the power trap is your own intent.

 

I'm always wary of methods like Kunlun Level 1 because I got burned repeatedly by methods that unwisely work with energy like that. So now I stick with what I do, Dissolving and movement Qigong, and some other methods, like for example NEW Energy Raising/Full Body Circuit or a Shielding Bubble, but I never sit down anymore to do a full half-hour of more of MCO like the followers of Mantak Chia would.

 

Oliver

[Oolong Rabbit]

I introduced a friend of mine to Kunlun recently to get an opinion on it, i trust his knowledge and wisdom on these matters and he gave me a pretty concise answer that i feel many of you will appreciate reading.

 

Kunlun is both fire and water. Level 1-2 = fire and level 3 = water. I would say fire method can be more dangerous, but the results come faster than water method. Vajrayana buddhism practioners say as much. I have a family, a demanding job etc... I need to make every minute of practice count, so that is what makes the fire method more appealing to me at this point in my life (although I still love my tai chi ).

[Yoda]

I'm guessing that Kunlun is a water thing... no consciously directing the flow, no expected outcomes, no goals, the flow that does get set up goes downwards and doesn't feel hot or sexual, at least to me. As opposed to kundalini, it doesn't even feel like light or bright energy.

[Oolong Rabbit]

I'm guessing that Kunlun is a water thing... no consciously directing the flow, no expected outcomes, no goals, the flow that does get set up goes downwards and doesn't feel hot or sexual, at least to me. As opposed to kundalini, it doesn't even feel like light or bright energy.

 

What about the heat burning away the blockages Yoda? Also the movements are very animated and fast paced. More on par with fire method than the slowness and stillness of the water method in my humble opinion. Even the beginning meditation seems to require active concentration/visualizations.

[portcraig]

When I took my first seminar Max kept telling me to be like water. My movements before he told me this were all fast as I have a lot of fire energy built up in my body. I have had to keep working on being more like water. Kunlun deals with the downward flow which is a cooling energy and not the kundalini which is the upward flow and is a fire energy. Maybe the heat one feels is the cooling downward flow mixing with the fire already present in the body. Craig

Edited November 3, 2007 by portcraig

[Mantra68]

Kunlun is a water practice by nature. It is the descent of the spirit into the body which is a very cooling type of feeling. It is a coolness that can literally be felt by others in the room.

 

With Kunlun you have an emptiness practice where one starts with a form and then lets it go. The form activates the "reset" function in the body that is fundamental to all of us. Once this process activates one can go through feelings of heat, twisting into spontaneous postures, speaking in tongues, laughing, crying, and sublime void.

 

So, in the beginning you may experience the full range of energetic possibilities, but you will ultimately be brought to a place of deep harmony. If you have fire in you it will be purged. If you have emotional blockages, they will be released. Raising your fire is not necessary to achieve these results. This is the true power of water.

 

Kunlun brings order out of chaos.

Edited November 3, 2007 by Mantra68

[thelerner]

Fire or Water? I guess it depends on the practitioner. Where they direct their consciousness and how energy sensitive they are(& how long there sessions are) To me Level One feels like an emptiness meditation done while holding a large battery.

 

I find it watery . Ofcourse I never found the Micro cosmic orbit to be particularly hot. To me it always felt like a circular skin mantra.

 

 

Michael

[agharta]

To me it always felt like a circular skin mantra.

Michael

 

I practice another circular skin mantra, in addition to that one.

[Spectrum]

The form activates the "reset" function in the body that is fundamental to all of us. Once this process activates one can go through feelings of heat, twisting into spontaneous postures, speaking in tongues, laughing, crying, and sublime void.

 

Actually that is wuji. Kunlun is subject to wuji, it's not the otherway around. The rest of it is pour form.

Edited November 3, 2007 by Spectrum

[Smile]

Oliver has a good insight but lacks wisdom to see the whole picture. Kunlun level 1 is not just about the posture, smiling and letting go. It's also 20 minutes of sitting afterwards.

[Spectrum]

Kunlun brings order out of Chaos

 

How does Kunlun do that?

 

Kunlun level 1 is not just about the posture, smiling and letting go. It's also 20 minutes of sitting afterwards.

 

In the beginning there was nothing. Stillness is good anytime during practice. Even when you're giggling up a smile. Sometimes you can just pause in the Taiji form, it's so beautiful in composition, that you can just release into one of the 13 postures, find wuji's connection through the 8 energies 5 directions, suspend, sung, sum or one. You know Ravi would agree. Music is movement.

 

Everytime emptiness is brought back into the center of the movement, alignment and relaxation generate internal movements, things you can't see, things you feel. Stillness works SOOO good for centering if you keep feeling a wobble while surfing the breath of the movements. Those wobbles on the horizontal plane, their thoughts between heaven and earth. Warbles to the Top stop nothing in the Way.

 

Wuji. Yin-Yang. TaiJi. PaKua.

 

Nothing Empty Nothing Full Blends The Perfect Move

 

Once you learn anything worthwhile mixing and matching is how you play the game. 10,000 forms of chi gung? Then again we have Bikram copywriting the order of his Yoga poses.... that's like copywriting a specific configuration of irrigation ducting for water to flow. Hmghd.

 

I'm going to copywrite the stillness ....pause.... Anytime I feel stress at work, I pause, breath into wuji, and boing. Perhaps I can hit up Gaia for a booty call on the way home from the patent office.

 

Spectrum

[Korpo]

With Kunlun you have an emptiness practice where one starts with a form and then lets it go. The form activates the "reset" function in the body that is fundamental to all of us. Once this process activates one can go through feelings of heat, twisting into spontaneous postures, speaking in tongues, laughing, crying, and sublime void.

 

All of these are signs of ungrounded energy practice, except the last. These are energy discharges, ungrounded, upsetting the energetic system. A method that does not properly ground the energy can IMO never be a Water method.

 

IMO the difference between Fire and Water methods is not the direction of the energetic current. The direction of the current is just a safety measure. Anytime you overwork your energetic system it is not a Water method, though. The Water aspect of gentleness, dissolving is what makes a Water method what it is. Respecting your limits, learning them, and allowing you to stay relaxed. You cannot properly relax something that you work to 100% or beyond (i.e. overwork beyond its innate capacity).

 

Spontaneous Qigong is its very own thing, it is not necessarily Water either. Nothing in the Water method prevents you from directing energy. If you do it like Bruce Frantzis teaches it, you actually direct the energy downward as a safety measure against side effects like the ones above.

 

I think the above discernments are too strongly fixated on alchemical aspects, but while the downward current has a cooling effect and can help stabilise your energetic system, this alone does not prevent forcing, strain, overworking, going beyond the limit or burn-out systems. It does however help in grounding. A method is Water if it focuses on uncovering of what is there (removing blockages of physical/etheric, emotional, mental nature) instead of focusing on creating power by activating power by visualisations, forceful energy leading, opening of special channels and so on.

 

Strong grounding is an important component in a method aiming for insight, because only when you ground agitated energies you can see subtler energies.

 

I find it irrelevant whether you sit for 20 minutes after such a practice or not - at least to whether it is Fire or Water. First you upset the energetic system, and then you try to sit? It's like the remedy for the damage done by the method itself. I'd guess if you'd leave out that component the method would leave you agitated and over longer periods a nervous wreck.

 

BTW, I did not practice nor know Kunlun in detail, I just was citing the promised effects the practice has - sweating, speaking in tongues, crying, hysterical laughter and so on. Anyone welcoming such effects in practice is already on the Fire path, no mistake. These effects always happen as side effects of improper grounding and overworking, and are only signs of progress for those who do not care what they actually do to their body, mind and soul in the search of power.

 

Oliver

[Sahaj Nath]

i think you're on to some good stuff here, oliver.

 

but i think your perspective is WAY too rigid! particularly that last paragraph of yours. power-hungry people don't tend to be very good at surrender. and it's not at all uncommon for the spontaneous, cathartic expressions of the body to induce miraculous healings, both physically and psychologically.

 

i don't know how far along you are in your practice, but the vast majority of the highest forms are formless and involve surrender and allowing the body to do as it will.

 

water can be turbulent in places where there is resistance.

 

 

i like your perspective; i just think it could benefit from being tempered with more openness.

 

for whatever that's worth.

[Sunya]

can't kunlun be combined with some water methods to balance out?

[Cameron]

The "close down" of Kunlun=water method.

 

Sitting still for 20 minutes with your hands over your navel and just watching the breath or doing nothing.

 

Don't see how much more water you can get than that.

 

If it makes you feel better ask your all knowing friend to dump a bucket of water over your head as you sit.

[90_1494798740]

can't kunlun be combined with some water methods to balance out?

 

I can't relate to this critical judgement. My own expericence is that the closing down in Kunlun has a cooling and grounding effect. The chi is stored properly and you don't have any weird energy running around in your system. That's something I have only succeded with moving forms before.

 

I didn't have any extreme experience at all - so far. It's more stillness meditation than anything else. The energy feels very subtle, but is still very powerful. Lack of energy is no issue anymore. The heat reminds me more of condensing water/steam than of burning fire.

 

Just my personal two cents ...

[Spectrum]

The "close down" of Kunlun=water method.

 

Sitting still for 20 minutes with your hands over your navel and just watching the breath or doing nothing.

 

Have you tried doing that before practice to see what happens?

[Cameron]

I do more.

 

The way I am doing it is however long I do Kunlun I do close down.

 

So 20 minutes Kunlun=20 minutes close down

 

1 hr Kunlun=1 hr close down

 

But the close down=practice time thing is something I plan on sticking to.

[Sahaj Nath]

I do more.

 

The way I am doing it is however long I do Kunlun I do close down.

 

So 20 minutes Kunlun=20 minutes close down

 

1 hr Kunlun=1 hr close down

 

Chris doesn't mention this on the Kunlun flyer but Max "shot out" for 6 months after learning Kunlun. If I can get my stuff somewhat together by the Phoenix workshop that will be 2 months for me..I can't afford 6 months

 

But the close down=practice time thing is something I plan on sticking to.

 

 

shot out? i don't know what you're alluding to.

Edited November 4, 2007 by Hundun

[Cameron]

Yup.

 

I don't know the details.

 

My opinion is this should be gone over in detail before the workshop.

 

In my case the first 6 weeks after the workshop I have been spacey and "out there" to say the least.

 

But I am hopeful things are returning to the lower tan tien and get balanced.

 

There is really ALOT that can be improved in the way the material is being presented. I guess it is up to Max and Chris at this point.

 

Don't get me wrong I am still glad I went and am doing the workshop in Phoenix but yes..things need to be explained a little bit more thoroughly so sensitive people like me can cope.

[Sunya]

 

 

Chris doesn't mention this on the Kunlun flyer but Max "shot out" for 6 months after learning Kunlun. If I can get my stuff somewhat together by the Phoenix workshop that will be 2 months for me..I can't afford 6 months

 

 

 

i can now see why you were so attracted to Kunlun in the first place. fast results, fast enlightenment eh? a little obsessive are we. why the rush? do you expect a medal ceremony at the end?

[Cameron]

I have been doing this for the last 12 years wiseass.

 

Your a little punk

[Sahaj Nath]

I have been doing this for the last 12 years wiseass.

 

Your a little punk

 

lol!

[Sunya]

good luck

i hope you win.

[Cameron]

good luck

i hope you win.

 

 

Win what?

 

Don't put words in my mouth.