Dim Mak

[MooNiNite]

The purpose of this thread is to understand the exact nature of The Death Touch, also known as Dim Mak.

 

Dim mak (death touch) is an ancient martial arts move that consists of striking certain points on the body to cause illness or death. The points are usually called dim mak points, but they are also referred to as vital points and pressure points. This move is usually connected to the circulation of life force, also known as chi. 

 

Everyone is encouraged to share information, history, and models/diagrams relating to the move. However, discussion about the validity of the move should be kept minimum. 

 

Any comments not directly sharing information related to the move will be deleted. I will probably hide comments that I dont view as valuable towards understanding or learning the move. 

Edited January 2, 2016 by MooNiNite

[MooNiNite]

Video and Discussion on Dim Mak

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maoy1xCjKXs

 

 

Is the Dim Mak Real? Written By: Da Shi Xiong Matt Talbert September 8, 2008

 

Dim Mak is Cantonese term and is known as Dian Mai (點脈) in Mandarin Dian means to press and exert pressure and Mai is a reference to the blood vessels. This literally is to press on the blood vessels. This is more commonly known in Traditional Chinese Medicine by the term Dian Xue (點血) which also means to press on the blood vessels and should not be confused with Dian Xue (點穴) which means to press on the cavities and references acupressure points. 

 

Most of what is considered Dim Mak is not just a single point on the human body but a collection of points. There are numerous points that can severely injure, debilitate, or kill an opponent. In Chinese Kung Fu these points would be taught in a system of martial knowledge known as the Poison Hands. In classical poison hands there are 108 points that are taught that can cause serious injury. 36 of these points can cause death while the other 72 points can cause unconsciousness or permanent injury. Most of these points, if struck with appropriate force, can not be recovered from and the individual will die within a few days or perhaps a few weeks. If these same points are struck with mild force they can cause permanent debilitating injuries if they are not immediately treated with the appropriate herbal remedies. Most of these points are specific points on the various meridians found within acupuncture. These points often seem random to those who are unfamiliar with the theories behind acupuncture and Traditional Chinese Medicine. Other points are much more common knowledge. Hitting someone very hard in the temple is fairly well known as a potentially fatal strike. The temple is considered one of the 108 points taught within the poison hands.

 

Those struck by one of the 108 points, often would die without seeming to have any external injury at all. This is because many of the points, those that lie on certain meridians, often cause severe damage to internal organs. Other points directly cause damage to the internal organs causing internal bleeding. Most people struck by the Dim Mak did not die immediately as the stories would have you believe. Many would die in a few days to severe internal injury, others would appear to recover their health and then perish several weeks later. For those not initiated in the information of Traditional Chinese Medicine, it often appeared that these people died under mysterious circumstances.

 

For most people just a touch would not be able to deliver the amount of power necessary to cause such severe injury. Ancient masters were more likely to effect such impressive results with a mere touch, but it did not happen overnight. To be able to effect such results masters often had to have mastered the skills of the Iron Palm. With fingers and hands hardened more than bricks and metal, and a deep understanding of internal power these masters could hit points with seemingly little effort. A master that was very accomplished in the Iron Palm would also likely have had a deep understanding of Qi(氣). This would allow them to project their Qi into an opponent. With just a touch, the master could project his Qi into vital acupuncture points disrupting the opponent’s Qi and damaging internal organs.

 

The Dim Mak is not an easy skill to master. The body must be trained so that the hands can deliver the strikes to the appropriate points and must be both tough and very accurate. The spirit must be cultivated so that the exponent can direct his Qi to the appropriate areas of his body and be able to project it into an opponent. There is also a substantial amount of knowledge that must be learned. Theories of acupuncture and Traditional Chinese Medicine require years of study but are essential for knowing how to properly affect the points. Not only must the points and the consequences of striking them be understood, but the exponent must remember which of 12 major meridians are active during what time of day, during which seasons so that the most effective points can be acted upon.

Edited January 1, 2016 by MooNiNite

[Michael Sternbach]

Nungali,

 

I suppose that's a version of the Bubishi?

 

Indeed, 'Dim Mak' doesn't refer to a particular move (except in certain films), but to a whole system of striking the acupuncture points (or a certain number thereof, depending on the style being practised).

 

Also, it is not necessarily about making the opponent succumb to long term effects, although this may be one of its possible applications. More interesting from a modern perspective, however, is its potential to incapacitate (not necessarily kill) an opponent by precisely grabbing or striking a (or a combination of) acupuncture points.

 

Knowledge of Dim Mak has been part of many martial arts, starting with Indian Kalaripayattu, and extending especially to Chinese, Okinawan and some Japanese styles. It is preserved in their forms although their modern 'sportification' is rather detrimental to its dissemination. Much of this knowledge has been preserved and transmitted by certain pioneering individuals such as Hohan Soken, George Dillman and Erle Montaigue.

[NotVoid]

I mentioned this already in another thread recently, but there are several videos with English subtitles on lily lily's youtube channel that explain and demonstrate some of the effects of some dian xue practices, AKA dim mak. Interesting what can be done. It would appear that true dian xue (point striking) involves the ability to send a blast of qi into an acupoint on a person's body. Very dangerous in the wrong hands, it would seem.

The youtube channel with the videos is here:

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVEKAEX2LhqRia7Ry-HI1Hw/videos

[SonOfTheGods]

Knowledge of Dim Mak can be used for healing too.

 

This should be understood right along with the martial application

[Michael Sternbach]

A sample from one of numerous DVDs on which Erle Montaigue teaches DM.

 

[9th]

and then, after many generations of theatrics...

 

[Nungali]

Nungali,

 

I suppose that's a version of the Bubishi?

 

 

yes. 

Indeed, 'Dim Mak' doesn't refer to a particular move (except in certain films), but to a whole system of striking the acupuncture points (or a certain number thereof, depending on the style being practised).

 

Thats what I thought ... 

 

Also, it is not necessarily about making the opponent succumb to long term effects, although this may be one of its possible applications. More interesting from a modern perspective, however, is its potential to incapacitate (not necessarily kill) an opponent by precisely grabbing or striking a (or a combination of) acupuncture points.

 

Yup, but people 'love' the 'death touch '  ...  <holds up one finger >   " Stand back! " 

 

 

Knowledge of Dim Mak has been part of many martial arts, starting with Indian Kalaripayattu, and extending especially to Chinese, Okinawan and some Japanese styles. It is preserved in their forms although their modern 'sportification' is rather detrimental to its dissemination. Much of this knowledge has been preserved and transmitted by certain pioneering individuals such as Hohan Soken, George Dillman and Erle Montaigue.

 

I learnt it via  Hohan Soken >    Koeshi Nishihira ....  who would block sting evade to the outside, do a little hop to ones outside rear blindspot ( while usually having hold of the striking arm, also gripping by applying finger pressure to a point )  and  kick from behind driving his big toe up into one's    CV1 -  Huiyin.  He was also fond of gripping the wrist with  ring finger pressure on Heart 5.

 

I prefer to keep distance and strike at any  offending target that enters my sphere, usually ling 5 or 8.  people being 'silly' ; with my  first two fingers and thumb tips pressed together , people being nasty, with 'Ippon ken'  (but the 2nd finger). 

 

[Taomeow]

 

and then, after many generations of theatrics...

 

 

Theatrics is right.  It's a very nice dance.  Definitely zero martial applications.   Given a choice between the two, I'd rather try kicking someone's ass with yoga. 

[Andrei]

The whole concept of dim mak is bollocks. To really make it work you need that your adversary to be unprepared take it by surprise or a lot weaker than you are. In these conditions just a sucker punch is enough, you don't really need any secret training. Really the whole thing is a waste of time. There are some points that you may use in a realistic fight but rarely you hit them to make it work, and there are just a few max 5 points exception the groin, the solar plexus and the gorge which are not allowed in competitions.

 

[Taomeow]

The whole concept of dim mak is bollocks.

 

Nope.  Not bollocks.  High level skill.  Prerequisites are very demanding. 

 

I can assure you that killing and healing is done with the same scalpel in skillful hands.  You don't do brain surgery without years of study and training.  And you don't do dim mak without years of study and training.  For brain surgery you need to know, among many other things, things that are absolutely not material, but absolutely real.  Ditto for dim mak. 

Edited January 2, 2016 by Taomeow

[Nungali]

Yep !   Mr Nishihira would 'demo' them on students, 'so you know how it feels' , then take the effects away with his ' hot healing hands' thingo he did. 

 

But not on  CV1 .   

[Nungali]

Maybe I never did any dim mak  ?    It was based on nerves ... ???   they may not be acupuncture points .... but boy, do they disable you ! 

 

 

Man , I can relate to the guy on the right here ... assisting with a demo a few times ...    owww !   orrrr !    arrrrgh!       ( like @ 5.00 in clip below ... and  @14.00 ) ...  I also had uncontrollable   hand spasms after some 'taps' . 

 

Like I said, I like to stay back out of range and attack any offending arm hand or leg that enters my sphere   (like @ 14.57 ....  but a bit further away ... then move in closer while they are in shock ) ; 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2016 by Nungali

[Andrei]

It is based on nerves, which actually proves my point. All acupuncture points are nervous terminations. A hit in a point sends a pain signal to the brain, and the area is swollen and is disabled. In reality there are only 5 areas where the nerves are at the surface of the skin. One is side of the neck carotid plexus, another one is facial nerve under the ear, the ulnar nerve under the arm, sciatic nerve on the inside of the leg and a ramification that goes on the lateral exterior of the knee. All the other "points" are small muscles that are squeezed on the neighbouring bone like the small muscle on the exterior of the arm between biceps and triceps, or nerves in between the muscles. Another point is the side of the cage is actually the floating rib that covers the kidney. But this one, and all the points on the body if you train iron shirt become invulnerable, because you learn to take the hit and dampen the effect in the surrounding tissues, tendons and bones. All these demos on youtube are done on people who are relaxed and expect to be hit. This is the key, brain surgery does not work on a un-cooperative patient. To have a brain surgery you have to sign a paper beforehand that you agree with the procedure, you are sedated and willing to proceed. So this is the key, the subject has to be relaxed for this to work. A guy who has the adrenaline surge to the roof does not feel anything, and the brain doesn't react. The nerves works with neurotransmitters, all signals are modulated through neurotransmitters. If you train zhan zhuang/iron shirt/golden bell/whatever they call it, your levels of adrenaline and serotonin are so high you don't feel anything, even if you have a crushed muscle you still can fight 3 minutes or even more so you still can win or escape. The demos I saw until now are on chickens, rabbits that have to be relaxed and skinny guys facing a heavy weight guy.

[Andrei]

If you "fill the abdomen with Qi" - in reality you don fill with any qi, it's just the way the muscles are tensed so that they provide a shape similar to a ball filled with air - then you obtain this ball bouncing effect that is just pure physics, so that any hit directed at you is redirected back:

 

http://youtu.be/6xftdgXU3DA

 

And if there's any "qi" in the abdomen that for sure is the serotonin produced in the guts and the adrenaline produced in the adrenal glands.

[9th]

 If you train zhan zhuang/iron shirt/golden bell/whatever they call it, your levels of adrenaline and serotonin are so high you don't feel anything, even if you have a crushed muscle you still can fight 3 minutes or even more so you still can win or escape. The demos I saw until now are on chickens, rabbits that have to be relaxed and skinny guys facing a heavy weight guy.

 

There is quite a bit more to actual iron shirt nei gung than that.  The problem with modern medical explanations is that they do not have nearly enough understanding about how the human energetic system operates at levels beyond the visible physical form.  Yes, the nerves are one of the components, but that is like looking at a footprint and saying you know where the person is and what they look like.  The nervous and endocrine systems are an end result of the energetic system.  We inhabit a world of energy (infrared, microwave, photonic, etc.) as well as a world of material objects, and the world of energy can be effectively "prior" to the material world in terms of cause and effect due to the properties of energy as opposed to matter.

 

For example, techniques involving fa jing are utilizing the energetic system of the environment as well as the body - most notably the gravitational field of the earth, and sometimes the electro-magnetosphere as well.  True masters can actually "borrow" energy from the earth to magnify the expelled force many more times than what is possible using the body alone. It begins with using the body as a whip, but after much practice and internal work, the body is only the point of issue and the foundation of striking power comes from the earth itself.  However, such achievements are not necessarily commonplace, and there are of course many pretenders.

 

I suspect your fundamental issue is that you believe mind to be a side effect of brain activity.  Whereas in actuality it is the other way around.

[Michael Sternbach]

As The Ancient Art of Life and Death: The Book of Dim Mak by Rick Bauer and Flane Walker discusses at length, there have been various attempts to explain the system of the meridians in terms of nerves and blood vessels etc. As to be expected when two very different perspectives on the human being meet, there is no full congruence. Despite numerous parallels, it doesn't seem to be possible to fully explain one system in terms of the others.

 

Of course, some individuals will maintain that modern materialistic Western science has all the answers, whereas ancient Eastern knowledge is full of superstitions and only valid as far as it can be explained by the former. This is not my position. And if it is yours, I probably won't be able to help you.

 

According to aforesaid book, rigorously, there are actually three types of strikes to be distinguished, although there is often just a thin line between them and they commonly get mixed up in martial arts parlance.

 

Dim mak: Death strikes - defined rather by their effect than by the way they work.

Dim hsueh: Bloodgate strikes - they connect to the circulatory system in some manner.

Dim ching: Incapacitating strikes - generally attacking nerve plexi.

 

A strike in one of the two latter categories in many cases can be elevated to a Dim mak strike, that is, if it kills the recipient, either immediately or later. Strikes in the Dim Ching category are generally the ones used in what came to be widely known as Kyusho-jitsu. This is mostly based on Okinawan Kempo and represented in the West by George Dillman, Evan Pantazi and some others.

 

Nerve strikes as used in Kyusho-jitsu are considered non-fatal, in fact quite harmless, even when they knock people out, thus more suitable for modern self-defence. They are typically delivered with what looks more like a touch than a strike. This is certainly one of the reasons why their effectiveness on a non-compliant opponent is often questioned. However, it should be borne in mind, that a strong looking blast doesn't always do the damage one would expect (brick crushing Kyokushin full contact fighters in tournaments usually keep bashing each other for quite awhile before one of them drops - sometimes). On the other hand, a technique that looks weak in the layman's eye might in truth have a lot of penetration and  knock the wind right out of you!

 

A little story to illustrate: A drunk 'friend' of mine in a bar shaking my hand used the opportunity to apply a finger lock on me that he had probably seen in a Steven Seagal movie. He knew I was doing martial arts and probably thought of himself as being funny while he gave me a big grin. I couldn't slip out of the lock and it was increasingly painful. So, before he was going to do some real damage, using my free hand, I delivered a fairly 'soft' vertical punch to his solar plexus. At no stage did I tense my muscles as I didn't want to do any real harm to him. The instant my lose fist connected, he let go of my hand as if struck by a lightning. "You're never gonna touch me again!" he squeezed out angrily. I thought to myself: Neither will you...

 

It should be mentioned that Kyusho-jitsu demonstrations on non-compliant outsiders are not always successful. Of course, you could say this of other strikes as well; some men can even take a substantial hit to the groin. So much depends on the susceptibility of the person struck, the level of mastery on side of the striker, and other circumstances.

 

Also, the alleged harmlessness of Kyusho-jitsu nerve strikes is often being questioned, especially by traditional practitioners of Chinese styles. I would be especially worried about long term effects the practice might have. I sometimes wonder if the high reliability of the strikes on other Kyusho practitioners is based on their nerve system having become overly sensitive due to being struck that way in training for years... Personally, I wouldn't join that kind of training, for being on the safe side. But I do watch the videos with interest.

 

Chinese practitioners like Erle Montaigue emphasize that to use Dim Mak to full effect, the techniques must be delivered with Fa-jin ("explosive force") which (it has been mentioned on this thread before) is more than a matter of body mechanics although the latter is an indispensable foundation for it.

[Michael Sternbach]

Yep ! Mr Nishihira would 'demo' them on students, 'so you know how it feels' , then take the effects away with his ' hot healing hands' thingo he did.

 

But not on CV1 .

Given its anatomical location, the big toe kick to CV1 you described should work well when fighting against an asshole...

 

Sorry, that was a little graphic. Definitely below the belt.

[Andrei]

There is a Korean research team that found the anatomical evidence for meridians I think this past year 2015, there are some transparent tubules that pass through the muscular tissue. Not to mention that meridians were evidenced long time ago with contrast substance and then having an x-ray or through infrared photography.

And the death strike can be explained by the huge levels of cortisol such a strike can produce,it is well known that you can die from stress.

 

[9th]

And the death strike can be explained by the huge levels of cortisol such a strike can produce,it is well known that you can die from stress.

 

your entire life can be explained as an absolutely meaningless blip inside a whirlwind of chaos you have no hope of ever comprehending whatsoever...

 

now, is that the whole truth? 

[Nungali]

Cricket player gets hit , at back of neck , just  below ear,  stands there a bit wincing ...  then goes down , dies two days later . 

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2b717z_phillip-hughes-hit-by-a-bouncer-on-head-video-phil-hughes-dies-from-head-injury_news

 

That happened about a week after a  thing at training;  one of the guys rushed me, I deflected and moved forward to the outside , turned and punched him in that same spot as he we passed ... but controlled- just a tap  ... and he was 'Whoa !  That didnt feel good, even a tap ! "   Then this cricket incident happened,  we discussed it next training session and decided not to do that technique anymore. 

 

Michael ,   those spots becoming overly sensitive  ?     Yes !      But now  with my hip problem I am not demonstration dummy like I used to be.    Also ... ineffective on some people ?  Yes.    Then again .... some people   ! 

 

I saw a big Maori guy in a brawl once, get clouted with a running swing with glass flagon,  ka-boosh !  right upside his head - giant explosion of glass and a a horrible noise ... he shook his head like a wet dog and then shaped up to his attacker