Kubba Posted January 4, 2016 You may concider looking for a spiritual teacher to finalise your process. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seekingbuddha Posted January 4, 2016 Thank you so much everyone for your thoughtful and well-considered replies, I really appreciate this. I know that this issue is beyond intellectualization, and the truth resides more in silence. I suppose what I've been seeking here is some kind of external reflection of my experience, like a teaching, a reference, or something else... but there is no real reference better than the prime referent, if you know what I mean. I have many other things to say but due to lack of time I have to stick to this point. Something that stands out is the idea of coming back around again, of the return, and of suffering more if you're already awake but misaligned. That has essentially been my experience this year. Over the past decade I've had many death and rebirth experiences within my body, in terms of near-fatal illness. It's always brought on by resistance, either to change or to truth. The death process brings me back to center, through extreme suffering. I don't want to live this way anymore. I must incorporate and integrate all aspects of my life into the awakeness, if I'm to stay alive. (That's an awkward way of putting it, but you know what I mean.) At the same time I have zero fear of dying, so I guess it is what it is. The realization is either completed or it isn't. Maybe the pointlessness I'm experiencing is my current temporal lifestyle and not the nature of the awakeness. Since my lifestyle has been relatively static / stagnant during these realizations I may be conflating the two. I better stop writing. I'm tired and this is likely to get incoherent. Goodnight! Orion, I am glad to see that you have no fear of dying. I hope to prepare myself for that event, with what i have tagged as "near death meditation". Then, I can pass through that natural process with a clear mind, and ability to transition into a higher being (if you accept certain teachings as true, though not directly experienced by us). I came in because i wanted to say something about suffering. Mental suffering is an ongoing process in my life too, though the mechanism of craving & clinging has been experienced directly, as the root causes of dissatisfaction in this life moments. Having tasted some higher truths (which many in the west seem to prefer to tag as Awakening or Awakened), one strives to maintain that state of mind, in as many life moments as possible. It is impossible to dwell in that state continually, for those of us who still have attachments to mental constructs and various other things. So, the way i think of it is as follows : "I have created all this suffering in my life, and i continue to entertain this suffering in present moment, because i performed certain (bad) actions in the past. Call this karma or bad seeds planted in youth & ignorance. So, this suffering is a natural process, and bliss is being denied as a everyday experience; though my friend seems to live in that blissful experience frequently, if not every day. So what ? My task is to strive on, strive on, to keep things in proper perspective: 1. There is no I/ ME/ SELF/ Soul. 2. This body, mind, experiences are simply a manifestation of THE ONE (call it using any other words you choose). 3. There is nothing but The ONE, and everything is The ONE. As long as i dwell in this realization, frequently and deeply, i am progressing in this life and the next one (if such exists). " So, my decision is to remind myself and meditate on the above everyday, no matter what life presents - suffering or bliss, it does not matter to me. All that matters is that i am established in the "bases" (such as ever deepening awareness) that i have experienced during my meditation retreats. Suffering is becoming a tool, a foundation upon which i can build my bases. Up and downs of life go on, as usual. It is difficult to maintain this awareness, for those of us who are engaged in speech and actions (i.e.. work, social interactions, what must be done while living in society). To the extent the practice is done, to that extent my suffering is being reduced. I try to stop my cravings as they arise, as i look at a beautiful woman or a material thing that i desire, or as i look at the fact that my life lacks bliss/happiness. I tell myself "why crave/desire even that, when i know it is fleeting / ever-changing ?". In the blink of an eye, life span is over, but I can realize this deeply enough, only at the point of death. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
roger Posted January 4, 2016 Orion, I feel that a sense of meaning and significance, and also happiness, are natural states, therefore they would seemingly accompany enlightenment. I've read that a sense of meaninglessness can precede this natural experience of meaning, and that it's necessary to go through the sense of meaninglessness to get to real meaning. I strongly believe that love is the meaning and significance of life. Love is not a means to an end, it's an end in itself. Think about this, if love were a means to an end, what would the end be, but more love? You mentioned a sense of pointlessness, and that's why I'm saying that LOVE IS THE POINT. There's really nothing else worth living for in my opinion. I hope this helps. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orion Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) Hopefully this thread has given you something you can work with in terms of dealing with these difficulties, and I wish you luck - its all part of the process. Perseverance is the key to this work! I have no choice really, heh... but thank you. Yes, it has reminded me that I need to let go of the words, like "awakening", and all of the extraneous explanation, and simply live my life. The inner work, if you can call it that, is going to arise anyway. You may concider looking for a spiritual teacher to finalise your process. I've had many teachers in my lifetime, mostly whom were really dear friends. We connected under unusual circumstances and it has contributed to lifelong learning. I'm not against a formalized student/teacher relationship per se, it just doesn't tend to happen for me. Part of me feels like nobody can help me. It's like trying to grasp onto someone else while everybody is in free fall. Nobody can really save you, they can only direct you to surrender and remembrance. It's at the point now where every day people can provide teachings, without knowing it. Anything that directs you to presence is doing its job, especially that fucking dog that keeps barking its face off across the street every morning at 6am. Orion, I am glad to see that you have no fear of dying. I hope to prepare myself for that event, with what i have tagged as "near death meditation". Then, I can pass through that natural process with a clear mind, and ability to transition into a higher being (if you accept certain teachings as true, though not directly experienced by us). I came in because i wanted to say something about suffering. Mental suffering is an ongoing process in my life too, though the mechanism of craving & clinging has been experienced directly, as the root causes of dissatisfaction in this life moments. Having tasted some higher truths (which many in the west seem to prefer to tag as Awakening or Awakened), one strives to maintain that state of mind, in as many life moments as possible. It is impossible to dwell in that state continually, for those of us who still have attachments to mental constructs and various other things. So, the way i think of it is as follows : "I have created all this suffering in my life, and i continue to entertain this suffering in present moment, because i performed certain (bad) actions in the past. Call this karma or bad seeds planted in youth & ignorance. So, this suffering is a natural process, and bliss is being denied as a everyday experience; though my friend seems to live in that blissful experience frequently, if not every day. So what ? My task is to strive on, strive on, to keep things in proper perspective: 1. There is no I/ ME/ SELF/ Soul. 2. This body, mind, experiences are simply a manifestation of THE ONE (call it using any other words you choose). 3. There is nothing but The ONE, and everything is The ONE. As long as i dwell in this realization, frequently and deeply, i am progressing in this life and the next one (if such exists). " So, my decision is to remind myself and meditate on the above everyday, no matter what life presents - suffering or bliss, it does not matter to me. All that matters is that i am established in the "bases" (such as ever deepening awareness) that i have experienced during my meditation retreats. Suffering is becoming a tool, a foundation upon which i can build my bases. Up and downs of life go on, as usual. It is difficult to maintain this awareness, for those of us who are engaged in speech and actions (i.e.. work, social interactions, what must be done while living in society). To the extent the practice is done, to that extent my suffering is being reduced. I try to stop my cravings as they arise, as i look at a beautiful woman or a material thing that i desire, or as i look at the fact that my life lacks bliss/happiness. I tell myself "why crave/desire even that, when i know it is fleeting / ever-changing ?". In the blink of an eye, life span is over, but I can realize this deeply enough, only at the point of death. Thanks for your reflections. I resonate with what you're saying, in a sense. I spent years affirming to myself that I didn't exist, that my personality was an illusion, etc. And although that's true on the ultimate level, an affirmation is not the same as a realization. All I did was deny myself and my own existence, causing great depression. Ego is seemingly there and seemingly wants love. I see no point in vilifying it any longer since seeing beyond it is not difficult. Ego naturally softens and dissipates as the work becomes more potent. In other words, I spent years pretending ego wasn't there, which in of itself was an attachment to ego. I don't believe in karma or reincarnation, nor do I believe in accumulating merit. There's nothing in here for them to attach to; there's nowhere for me to go when I die because I was never here. This is, for sure, one continuous thing, no separations. Therefore, it never ends, ever. Birth and death are inconsequential. Preparing for death is like preparing to return to what you already are, minus the personality that won't be around to quibble over it. But... that said... even this personality deserves the compassion of a peaceful death before its very holographic nature is deactivated. That's not to say I don't take responsibility or that I'm not upright as much as possible. Just that, I can't do these stories anymore. They all feel like untruths. Who was it that said... "all positions are prisons, if I speak for the serpent, the serpent may speak for the bird; this too, all fictions are true." I have the utmost respect for your process and I'm sure if someone examined my life they could find things that don't work for them as well. All roads lead to Rome... eventually. Everything is just food for thought in the mean time. It's like, "Really? I may have past lives? Interesting! Ok, back to emptiness...!" Orion, I feel that a sense of meaning and significance, and also happiness, are natural states, therefore they would seemingly accompany enlightenment. I've read that a sense of meaninglessness can precede this natural experience of meaning, and that it's necessary to go through the sense of meaninglessness to get to real meaning. I strongly believe that love is the meaning and significance of life. Love is not a means to an end, it's an end in itself. Think about this, if love were a means to an end, what would the end be, but more love? You mentioned a sense of pointlessness, and that's why I'm saying that LOVE IS THE POINT. There's really nothing else worth living for in my opinion. I hope this helps. It really does, thank you. Edited January 5, 2016 by Orion 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
9th Posted January 5, 2016 Life is an economy of energy, with most of it unseen and unheard, and yet vitally fundamental to the core of reality. Exchanges and transactions and so forth - and this movement of energy is the driving force of all things and perceptions. It goes far beyond ideas of input/output, because that is only one dimension of the actuality. However we must start from where we are at, by investigating the principals of affirming, denying, and reconciling. The multidimensional does not play by the same rules that humanity has chosen for themselves, but the basic "building blocks" of reality are the same everywhere. Discussions and descriptions and as you say, stories - are an extremely superficial layer coating the surface of these mechanics. By their reductive nature, they help to impose and reinforce incredibly limited binary outlooks that only contribute to the "me" illusion and its complications in the face of reality. They are not necessarily needed (in most cases), but they have become convenient for people. I would say far too convenient, but that is only IMHO. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seekingbuddha Posted January 5, 2016 Orion, As 9th points out, there is some benefit in discussions and words of intellect, though we all understand that words are not sufficient to fully delineate certain experiences that we discuss. Thanks for your reflections. I resonate with what you're saying, in a sense. I spent years affirming to myself that I didn't exist, that my personality was an illusion, etc. And although that's true on the ultimate level, an affirmation is not the same as a realization. All I did was deny myself and my own existence, causing great depression. Ego is seemingly there and seemingly wants love. I see no point in vilifying it any longer since seeing beyond it is not difficult. True - logical understanding or affirmation, is not the same as realization. One starts with (pariyatti) understanding the logic at intellectual level; Then progresses to get glimpses of realization, even though there are multiple depths to any realization. I do not deny my existence; that is our reality. But i deny the notion that there is anything inside this body+mind, that is ever lasting and permanent, which i can tag as I/ME/MYSELF. This is the teaching of my Supremely Enlightened Teacher; meditation on this teaching will eventually confirm the truth of the teaching beyond intellectualization. Ego naturally softens and dissipates as the work becomes more potent. In other words, I spent years pretending ego wasn't there, which in of itself was an attachment to ego. Even with the above knowledge, I still do not deny my Ego. In fact, i have bigger than average EGO, as affirmed by my friends. This is my karma, which i built up over past decades. Now, i will strive on, to burn away my karma (see below for definition of karma). I see my EGO as one of the main sources of hinderance. I can see that my Ego clings to the notion ME/I/MINE, and it is causing me all kinds of suffering. But, i am unable to let go of my Ego. I keep trying to chip away at my EGO as part of my practice; because that is what my teacher advices. My hope is that as i keep trying, my EGO will diminish over age and wisdom, and provide me a pleasant abiding in this very life. I don't have to necessarily believe in next life. As happy as i can live, i can also pass away happily. It is also my belief that many of us here, the intellectual/spiritual types, carry a good dose of EGO - seems to be part of our personalities, because we realize that "we think" more than an average person does. I don't believe in karma or reincarnation, nor do I believe in accumulating merit. There's nothing in here for them to attach to; there's nowhere for me to go when I die because I was never here. This is, for sure, one continuous thing, no separations. Therefore, it never ends, ever. Birth and death are inconsequential. Preparing for death is like preparing to return to what you already are, minus the personality that won't be around to quibble over it. But... that said... even this personality deserves the compassion of a peaceful death before its very holographic nature is deactivated. I have not seen directly or experienced the reality of rebirth. So, i set it aside without being too pushy about it. There is benefit of practice, right here in this life, as we have all realized and seen directly. Practice leads to higher levels of mind, higher levels of peacefulness in mind; it leads to lessening of suffering, or at least gives us the ability to deal with suffering in this very life, in this very moment. Regardig karma ......I can also restrict my "definition of karma" to "actions i have performed in this very life, in my youth". If i go by this definition, i can easily see that my past actions are affecting my present day. I am suffering this very day, because of the decisions and actions i undertook in some years ago. So again, one does not have to believe in rebirth or past births, to see that karma is actually working; it is a decent hypothesis to work with. I do see and understand your words, and they carry wisdom. The reason i visited this thread now is because of my newfound understanding of "bliss" which you were talking about in your OP. Some of what i said earlier maybe incorrect, because wikipedia definition (of bliss) says .... In the Pali Canon and related literature, the term is used in a general sense to refer to "well-being and happiness". So, if we take this definition of bliss, then yes, I can see that suffering would deny this state of mind. I simply accept my suffering, my lack of bliss, try to work with it, and use it as foundation upon which i can build my practice. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bud Jetsun Posted January 5, 2016 Mid-awakening can be traumatic like a birth. As a being discovers its true Self, but still lives in a world of delusions and constructs made by mis-perceptions of little self, a fissure in conflicting realities may arise. It is equally possible to permit this fissure to destroy you or empower you by your own choice of will alone. Unlimited Love, -Bud 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kubba Posted January 5, 2016 How you had this awakening? through guru? or it just happened? If the first, then come back to him, If the second answer, then also find a teacher. Thats how it has to be completed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bud Jetsun Posted January 5, 2016 (edited) How you had this awakening? through guru? or it just happened? If the first, then come back to him, If the second answer, then also find a teacher. Thats how it has to be completed. There is only an illusion of "has to be completed" and an illusion of "requires a teacher". Those things are perhaps good advice and perhaps a method to spoil oneself by leveraging someone else's path's progress, but not requirements, as ultimately all realization is self-realization and all mindfullness is self-mindfullness and choice in awareness of this moment is self-choice in awareness of this moment alone. If you have the budget and selfish desire to employ hired wisdom and guidance and pamper yourself with weeks or months of dedicated meditation, this may or may not help, it still ultimately hinges on the choice of the individual to choose by will for it to help or not help in ones evolution towards becoming one with the nature of reality. The right teacher for the right person could be an incredible symbiosis of wisdom transfer and mindful evolution of state of being. However, just whole-heartedly looking inside oneself equally offers this same potential, albeit the user must search harder to find it without guidance. Unlimited Love, -Bud Edited January 6, 2016 by Bud Jetsun 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jonesboy Posted January 6, 2016 There have been no great masters that I am aware of without a guru. A real guru is rare but when you find him it is life changing. There really is no comparison. All the best, Tom Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tibetan_Ice Posted January 6, 2016 There have been no great masters that I am aware of without a guru. A real guru is rare but when you find him it is life changing. There really is no comparison. All the best, Tom Buddha and Jesus did not have gurus. I guess you've never heard of them... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted January 6, 2016 Buddha and Jesus did not have gurus. I guess you've never heard of them... I don't know. Didn't Buddha travel around and learn from many masters, the whole Siddhartha journey, from Brahmans to ascetics? Hard to say what teachers Jesus had. Just cause they're not mentioned doesn't mean they didn't exist. Perhaps the high respect he showed John the Baptist means he was used to being with esoteric high level teachers. They didn't stay in the guru system, but they probably had teachers and/or masters. To learn from and reject too. Even the rejection is part of the learning process. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orion Posted January 6, 2016 This thread is gold, thank you everyone. About gurus... it's not that they're unnecessary, or necessary. It's whatever is called for, and whatever's happening. There's no formula. I can't even tell you how I got to this point. I could speculate but who knows. All I can say is that anytime in my life where I thought I was in control, in hindsight I wasn't. Again, it's all stories: the story that you need a guru, the story that you don't need anyone and can do this alone. If you give up the story then whatever's happening, is just what's happening. Some of the same teachers I've had in my life who impacted me profoundly, no longer talk to me... because they wanted to keep relating to me as the same old person, and I became part of their superficial identity. The only gurus who are worth it are the ones who point you to the truth, without conditional dogma... and those come in all shapes and forms. Today I knocked over a plant in my house that I've been procrastinating about transplanting to a bigger pot for a long time. The soil went everywhere. I got angry and then quickly realized there's no reason to be angry, the plant just needed care and a more stable pot. In that moment, was the plant my guru? Just saying. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kubba Posted January 6, 2016 (edited) There is only an illusion of "has to be completed" and an illusion of "requires a teacher". Those things are perhaps good advice and perhaps a method to spoil oneself by leveraging someone else's path's progress, but not requirements, as ultimately all realization is self-realization and all mindfullness is self-mindfullness and choice in awareness of this moment is self-choice in awareness of this moment alone. If you have the budget and selfish desire to employ hired wisdom and guidance and pamper yourself with weeks or months of dedicated meditation, this may or may not help, it still ultimately hinges on the choice of the individual to choose by will for it to help or not help in ones evolution towards becoming one with the nature of reality. The right teacher for the right person could be an incredible symbiosis of wisdom transfer and mindful evolution of state of being. However, just whole-heartedly looking inside oneself equally offers this same potential, albeit the user must search harder to find it without guidance. Unlimited Love, -Bud What is the problem in uplifting someone?Someone can go the hard way, and maybe if you did so you encourage this path, or maybe you just talk to talk, I don't know if thats the case, just free thoughts. Since the guru is embodied true Self which is the same as mine or yours, and he transmits it, and transmits the love - through his grace you own love can start to shine, and love, devotion is crucial. So relation with guru is crucial yet withouth any sense of authority or that he/she is higher than you. Offcours at the end you go on your own. It makes the proces more ballanced, it makes it less dramatic and shorter, but sure, you can spend some lifetimes in samadhi to findout on your own, free choice. Edited January 6, 2016 by Kubba Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jonesboy Posted January 6, 2016 Buddha and Jesus did not have gurus. I guess you've never heard of them... The Buddha had a lot of teachers and Jesus in all ways recognized John as his guru. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jonesboy Posted January 6, 2016 This thread is gold, thank you everyone. About gurus... it's not that they're unnecessary, or necessary. It's whatever is called for, and whatever's happening. There's no formula. I can't even tell you how I got to this point. I could speculate but who knows. All I can say is that anytime in my life where I thought I was in control, in hindsight I wasn't. Again, it's all stories: the story that you need a guru, the story that you don't need anyone and can do this alone. If you give up the story then whatever's happening, is just what's happening. Some of the same teachers I've had in my life who impacted me profoundly, no longer talk to me... because they wanted to keep relating to me as the same old person, and I became part of their superficial identity. The only gurus who are worth it are the ones who point you to the truth, without conditional dogma... and those come in all shapes and forms. Today I knocked over a plant in my house that I've been procrastinating about transplanting to a bigger pot for a long time. The soil went everywhere. I got angry and then quickly realized there's no reason to be angry, the plant just needed care and a more stable pot. In that moment, was the plant my guru? Just saying. Not a one that you have mentioned is a real guru. A real guru doesn't need books or a system. His presence alone is enough to advance one along. It is truly mind blowing, amazing and one feels very blessed. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
9th Posted January 6, 2016 Today I knocked over a plant in my house that I've been procrastinating about transplanting to a bigger pot for a long time. The soil went everywhere. I got angry and then quickly realized there's no reason to be angry, the plant just needed care and a more stable pot. In that moment, was the plant my guru? Just saying. Yes, I would say the world is the guru. Some people might call it the "universe" or whatever, but I often hear that as a code word for "God". When we talk of the "tao" it is not quite the same thing - but in general I dont think people have investigated all these concepts in enough depth to really make the fine discernment needed to understand the differences in the face of what is similar... its usually just an amorphous mystery to which they ascribe various names and ideas according to the whim of the moment. It is widely known amongst those who practice in such a way that the "outer guru" is only a bridge to the "inner guru", which isnt to lessen the status or position of such teachers, but rather to indicate the objective of the practice. However depending on the style of the tradition involved and the people engaged in it, the "outer guru" may be worshipped in a devotional way which tends to obscure the point, at best, IMHO. In the worst cases, people can become literally addicted to the satsang and the energy of the guru (shaktipat, etc) exactly like any other drug experience. In modern terminology you could say that by virtue of the more coherent energetic form embodied by the accomplished person known as "guru", the less coherent energy of the students is "entrained" or harmonized to the same frequency. In other words, just by being around the guru or in their sphere of influence, the student is in many ways raised up to that level in their own inner being. This allows the student to deal with their issues with the full support of realization, even though they have not attained it for themselves. I have always considered the idea of Christianity as one of the most extreme examples of "guru yoga" possible, but in practice of course it is not that way at all. The idea of giving yourself over to an "avatar" in body, mind and soul - letting them do it for you - letting them "eat your sins", etc. - its an old world idea. Like training wheels on a bicycle, it is certainly not "necessary" or even beneficial at all past a certain temporary stage - when speaking of evolution and progressive development. Teddy bears, pacifiers, etc. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted January 6, 2016 There have been no great masters that I am aware of without a guru. A real guru is rare but when you find him it is life changing. There really is no comparison. All the best, Tom You state categorically that no great master is without a guru... what of your own guru, what is his lineage? Who is his guru? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
9th Posted January 6, 2016 The Buddha had a lot of teachers and Jesus in all ways recognized John as his guru. All true statements. In a somewhat related note, it seems that the "baptism" which John advocated, and which has become so famous through the Christian tradition - was a manufactured near-death experience. John didnt just dunk people in the river, he held them down until they began to drown - then pulled them back up to be "born again". This was perhaps a bit extreme, but that was the way of the apocalyptic cults known to be operating in this area at this time. It wasnt haphazard or reckless, but it certainly was dangerous - which is the point of a "life and death" encounter. It can really crystallize your inner essence. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jonesboy Posted January 6, 2016 Hi Bindi, You know where he hangs out, where we all hang out. http://community.livingunbound.net/index.php?/ If you want to ask questions about his experience then ask him in the chat room. Not really my place to speak for him. You know I believe in the guru and the ability to work mind to mind to help others. Just like I know you have your issues with it. All I ever do is throw out the seeds and every once in awhile someone comes along and it is a beautiful experience. Life changing. I also understand that not everyone is ready for such a thing. All the best to you Bindi, Tom Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted January 6, 2016 Hi Bindi, You know where he hangs out, where we all hang out. http://community.livingunbound.net/index.php?/ If you want to ask questions about his experience then ask him in the chat room. Not really my place to speak for him. You know I believe in the guru and the ability to work mind to mind to help others. Just like I know you have your issues with it. All I ever do is throw out the seeds and every once in awhile someone comes along and it is a beautiful experience. Life changing. I also understand that not everyone is ready for such a thing. All the best to you Bindi, Tom This is not about seeds, or readiness, or belief. I asked you a question that you will not answer, because you don't like to admit that your own guru has no guru. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jonesboy Posted January 6, 2016 Hi Bindi, So are you admitting that Jeff is a guru like the kind I have mentioned? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatito Posted January 6, 2016 As someone else previously spotted - folie à deux Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted January 6, 2016 Hi Bindi, So are you admitting that Jeff is a guru like the kind I have mentioned? Hardly. See below. Again you don't answer to the actual issue, your guru's guru/lineage. This is not about seeds, or readiness, or belief. I asked you a question that you will not answer, because you don't like to admit that your own guru has no guru. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted January 6, 2016 This is not about seeds, or readiness, or belief. I asked you a question that you will not answer, because you don't like to admit that your own guru has no guru. A Lament That thread snagged from my magic seat, Has left me guru-less and incomplete, And I forever will just be, A flea on top of other fleas. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites