Life after Awakening

[Apech]

As someone else previously spotted - folie à deux

 

 

And a folly shared is a folly doubled.

[gatito]

And a folly shared is a folly doubled.

 

I was told that it was 50% of the membership.

 

I think that was just a hollow boast though...

[9th]

A Lament

 

That thread snagged from my magic seat,

Has left me guru-less and incomplete,

And I forever will just be,

A flea on top of other fleas.

 

 

A little late to be worrying about an infestation around here, dont you think??

 

Thats why its best to "bury the bone so deep that the dogs have to scratch for it."

[Michael Sternbach]

No two paths are exactly the same, nor will they lead to exactly the same understanding of the Universe. This is because anyone's full comprehension of their world, or enlightenment, is equivalent to the full realization of their own individuality which is unique to themselves. For the Universe to understand Itself, it needs the myriads of unique perspectives of all the individuals it created. The best spiritual teachers always understood and taught this. They simply serve as a model and guide during a certain stage of one's perfect path.

 

With the words of Kahlil Gibran:

 

"For the vision of one man lends not its wings to another man. And even as each one of you stands alone in God's knowledge, so must each one of you be alone in his knowledge of God and his understanding of the earth."

[Jonesboy]

 

 

Hi Bindi,

 

So are you admitting that Jeff is a guru like the kind I have mentioned?

 

 

 

Hardly. See below. Again you don't answer to the actual issue, your guru's guru/lineage.

 

 

Bindi, on 06 Jan 2016 - 07:03, said:

 

 

This is not about seeds, or readiness, or belief. I asked you a question that you will not answer, because you don't like to admit that your own guru has no guru. 

 

If you don't believe what I am saying I see no reason to continue on with the conversation. I don't see the value in having another thread of back and forth with you.

 

All the best,

 

Tom

Edited January 6, 2016 by Jonesboy

[Bindi]

If you don't believe what I am saying I see no reason to continue on with the conversation. I don't see the value in having another thread of back and forth with you.

 

All the best,

 

Tom

A simple question Jonesboy, who is your guru's guru, and I repeatedly get no answer.

[gatito]

A little late to be worrying about an infestation around here, dont you think??

 

Thats why its best to "bury the bone so deep that the dogs have to scratch for it."

 

Yes...

 

(Love the gif incidentally...)

[Jonesboy]

If you don't believe he is a guru then it is not a real question.

[Bindi]

If you don't believe he is a guru then it is not a real question.

 

I believe he is your guru though. This makes the question "Who is your guru's guru" quite valid. 

[Jonesboy]

Which goes back to my answer..

 

Ask him

[gatito]

Which goes back to my answer..

 

Ask him

 

That would also be entirely pointless.

 

[Bindi]

Which goes back to my answer..

 

Ask him

 

I'm asking you. I never will get an answer though will I?

[Jetsun]

I guess it is possible to have a non human Guru, for example Jigmey Lingpa who is revered as one of the most important Tibetan Dzogchen masters received his transmissions and teachings in visions and dreams, but for most of us that leaves the strong possibility that we are deluding ourselves, or being deluded by some kind of higher dimension spirit or entity. In Tibetan medicine there are all sorts of ranks of spirits, very few of which are qualified to teach and influence us but many may try to do so. At lease with a human Guru we can hold them to human standards to some extent. 

[Apech]

Guru, guru, on the wall,

Who's the wisest of them all?

 

The wisest DaoBum so they say,

Is wise enough to stay away.

[Jonesboy]

[dwai]

I have been contemplating this for some months now and it would be nice to get feedback from the community, whether it's scholarly, experiential, or just friendly advice.

 

I'm feeling kind of existentially frustrated right now, having Realized some major things, but also getting the sense that the process is incomplete. I just wanted to preface this by saying that I'm trying my best to put words to embodied feelings, so it may seem like mind, but the sensations come from a centered, embodied experience and then get translated by mind.

 

For me, the embodied sense of emptiness doesn't change with the circumstances anymore. I've felt this way in the midst of some of the highest points of my life, and the lowest. I just wasn't able to put words to the awareness until recently. (This year I had a near death experience and extremely intense suffering which catalyzed the process further.) Whenever suffering gets too intense or happiness gets too extreme, something within me caves in, and I come right back to center, to ground zero, to total presence and awareness. It happens to a lesser extent in other circumstances but even in the midst of passion, I find myself stopping and feeling this embodied sensation of, "What's really happening here? Why am I doing this?" (I'm phrasing it as a thought, but it's a body feeling.) It's like my consciousness can no longer get carried away with idle distractions, even ones that I actively seek. Something in me ceases to believe in what's happening, I unattach, and then go right back to emptiness. It's almost as though people, places, and situations are constantly causing me to suspend my belief and look more deeply, in a very autonomous way. I have some background in psychology and at first I was concerned I might be dissociating, but it turns to such razor sharp focus, presence and clarity that I have ruled that out. For some people, the more intense a situation gets, the more they tune it out... for me it's the opposite, the more intense it gets the more real it becomes and the more the truth is revealed. Maybe it's because intensity suspends all stories and narratives and causes total presence. If it weren't for the crystal clarity of these moments, I would have given up on myself as being insane a long time ago.

 

There are definitely people who abdicate participation in life by spending too much time dwelling on nihilism, or using emptiness as a means to obliterate themselves. For me, it works a bit differently. No matter if I'm enjoying myself and feeling passion, or having the worst day ever, I find it hard to put my belief 100% into anything. I could be fully engaged in "self" and all its machinations, only to be pulled back out of it a moment later. I know everything's temporary and that's not what stops me; what stops me is that having a belief seems like a distraction from the truth. It's as though every story or narrative a person holds about the truth is what stands between them and the real truth. I'd rather not identify with anything. It's not a rationale or a method to excuse lack of productivity or direction. I feel it is pure truth of the situation incarnate. No matter if I'm happy or sad I'm still experiencing it. "It" never changes. It's totally seamless.

 

Now here's where I'm at. I've connected with some others around the world who understand what I'm saying. For some reason they are able to move into a state of pure joy and bliss after realizing "it", but that hasn't clicked for me. I still only see the pointlessness (not in a depressed way, but in a temporal way). I have so much love and compassion for other people and living things, but it doesn't negate that I feel like having to live this life and involve myself in material world tasks seems pointless. Again, I'm not saying I'm above it or anything. I still work, pay bills, etc... I just mean, I dunno... how do you move forward when you see things as they really are, when all stories and all choices seem like narratives? How can I choose another mask to wear when the mask has already been removed?

 

The truth that I feel in the meat and understand without equivocation is that whatever's happening is just what's happening. There's no "trying", just awareness observing arising and dissolving. How this plays out in my life is that suffering doesn't end, it just becomes yet another transient state, like happiness, depression, joy, lust, etc. They are all empty states. It is total freedom and so there's no point in "trying" to be anything within it, as there's no "you" doing it.

 

What I'm having trouble reconciling is that there still seems to be another level to this which I am yet to experience, while at the same time levels seem superfluous. I've met others who are awakened in this manner, but somehow it brings them such joy and bliss. For me the experience is bittersweet... all the pain in the world is beyond my control and so is all the joy. I can free myself of extraneous identities on the one hand which is totally liberating, but on the other hand it's like I am watching an ocean of waves arising and dissolving and all I can do is let it flow through me without trying to grasp. So where is this bliss in that? I don't get how these realized people feel so great about reality. Are they merely making a choice with their freedom, to be happy? Or what's the deal? I'm kind of in this lull of pointlessness despite a life that has the potential to be otherwise meaningful, but I can't get beyond the pointlessness.

 

I hope this makes some kind of sense. Thank you for reading.

 

In my perspective it is a matter of attachment still. If I feel compelled to feel a certain way about something (thereby triggering deep pathos or deep unrest), I am attached to something (values perhaps) that still have a hold on me. 

 

If I feel the absence of (or look for the experience of) another state, I have not really let go of things that are empty in nature (phenomena). But mainly, in my experience, it is a case of attachments. And guilt associated with those attachments. 

 

Being Empty doesn't imply we become psychopaths. Being Empty just means we develop a innate sense of humor about everything and everyone, if I may put it that way. When duality and modifications don't "bother" us any more. 

 

The ecstatic feelings go away. Because ecstasy is in contrast to something else. And that too is a feeling experienced by a "self". It is a paradox because the ecstasy helps us in the process of becoming empty. But it too is a phenomenon. 

[Geof Nanto]

From a Daoist perspective rather than ‘awakening’ I'd express it as 'fulfillment'. We enter into a state of whole of life wu wei. In my own life it's a state I enter at times but cannot maintain. Here’s how Jung describes such a state in his commentary on The Secret of the Golden Flower……

 

Obviously it is always an unfortunate thing to express, in intellectual terms, subtle feelings which are none the less infinitely important for the life and well-being of the individual. In a certain sense, the thing we are trying to express is the feeling of having been " replaced ", but without the connotation of having been " deposed ". It is as if the leadership of the affairs of life had gone over to an invisible centre. Nietzsche's metaphor, "In most loving bondage, free," would be appropriate here. Religious speech is full of imaginative expressions that picture this feeling of free dependence, of calm and devotion.

 

In this remarkable experience I see a phenomenon resulting from the detachment of consciousness, through which the subjective " I live ", becomes the objective " It lives me ". This condition is felt to be higher than the earlier one; it is really as if it were a sort of release from compulsion and impossible responsibility which are the inevitable results of participation mystique. This feeling of release filled Paul completely. It is the consciousness of being a child of God which then frees one from the spell of the blood. Also, it is a feeling of reconciliation with what is happening, and that is the reason that the glance of " one who has attained fulfilment ", according to the Hui Ming Ching, returns to the beauty of nature. 

[johndoe2012]

This thread is gold, thank you everyone.

 

About gurus... it's not that they're unnecessary, or necessary. It's whatever is called for, and whatever's happening. There's no formula. I can't even tell you how I got to this point. I could speculate but who knows. All I can say is that anytime in my life where I thought I was in control, in hindsight I wasn't. Again, it's all stories: the story that you need a guru, the story that you don't need anyone and can do this alone.

 

If you give up the story then whatever's happening, is just what's happening.

 

Some of the same teachers I've had in my life who impacted me profoundly, no longer talk to me... because they wanted to keep relating to me as the same old person, and I became part of their superficial identity. The only gurus who are worth it are the ones who point you to the truth, without conditional dogma... and those come in all shapes and forms.

 

Today I knocked over a plant in my house that I've been procrastinating about transplanting to a bigger pot for a long time. The soil went everywhere. I got angry and then quickly realized there's no reason to be angry, the plant just needed care and a more stable pot. In that moment, was the plant my guru? Just saying.

It reminds me of my own experiences where I 'suddenly' drop something and the illusion of control is further shattered.

 

Slowly but surely the veil goes.

 

Indeed it is just happening :-)

[Orion]

Not a one that you have mentioned is a real guru. A real guru doesn't need books or a system. His presence alone is enough to advance one along.

 

It is truly mind blowing, amazing and one feels very blessed.

 

So we all need a guru, except your guru who apparently has no guru?

 

Sounds plausible.

 

In modern terminology you could say that by virtue of the more coherent energetic form embodied by the accomplished person known as "guru", the less coherent energy of the students is "entrained" or harmonized to the same frequency.  In other words, just by being around the guru or in their sphere of influence, the student is in many ways raised up to that level in their own inner being.  This allows the student to deal with their issues with the full support of realization, even though they have not attained it for themselves.

 

I have always considered the idea of Christianity as one of the most extreme examples of "guru yoga" possible, but in practice of course it is not that way at all.  The idea of giving yourself over to an "avatar" in body, mind and soul - letting them do it for you - letting them "eat your sins", etc. - its an old world idea.  Like training wheels on a bicycle, it is certainly not "necessary" or even beneficial at all past a certain temporary stage - when speaking of evolution and progressive development.  Teddy bears, pacifiers, etc.

 

I've experienced this, as well as provided this for others. I don't consider myself fully realized but in the relativistic hierarchy a lot of people are attracted to my "energy". They become uplifted, have more clarity -- and to be honest, the practice of transmission and helping them activates/uplifts me as well. It's more than just become compassionate, I'm not sure how to describe it. Likewise I've been around others whose transmission helps me greatly, but then I return to where I'm actually at when I leave their presence.

 

An eastern medicine practitioner from Japan that I apprenticed under taught me some acupuncture techniques for clearing the energy body and facilitating heightened potential. When the patient leaves the session, they are more open with heightened awareness. We always tell the person when they leave the session that if they want to do maintain this state, they need to do the inner work. As a result, he had a few patients coming back over and over again, chasing the heightened state, but were unable to attain it themselves. They were expecting the treatment protocol to do it for them. I feel that a lot of guru / student relationships are unfortunately this way.

 

I do believe gurus can facilitate the entrainment you're talking about, but I'm not totally convinced that the realizations disciples attain in that environment are necessarily complete. The true test is when they are on their own, or go back out into the world of distractions and temptations. At the end of the day, we're all on a solo journey.

 

From a Daoist perspective rather than ‘awakening’ I'd express it as 'fulfillment'. We enter into a state of whole of life wu wei. In my own life it's a state I enter at times but cannot maintain. Here’s how Jung describes such a state in his commentary on The Secret of the Golden Flower……

 

Obviously it is always an unfortunate thing to express, in intellectual terms, subtle feelings which are none the less infinitely important for the life and well-being of the individual. In a certain sense, the thing we are trying to express is the feeling of having been " replaced ", but without the connotation of having been " deposed ". It is as if the leadership of the affairs of life had gone over to an invisible centre. Nietzsche's metaphor, "In most loving bondage, free," would be appropriate here. Religious speech is full of imaginative expressions that picture this feeling of free dependence, of calm and devotion.

 

In this remarkable experience I see a phenomenon resulting from the detachment of consciousness, through which the subjective " I live ", becomes the objective " It lives me ". This condition is felt to be higher than the earlier one; it is really as if it were a sort of release from compulsion and impossible responsibility which are the inevitable results of participation mystique. This feeling of release filled Paul completely. It is the consciousness of being a child of God which then frees one from the spell of the blood. Also, it is a feeling of reconciliation with what is happening, and that is the reason that the glance of " one who has attained fulfilment ", according to the Hui Ming Ching, returns to the beauty of nature. 

 

This is perfect, thank you.

 

One thing this thread has helped with is to provide some words to an experience. I'm resonating with much that has been said here.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Orion

[9th]

Usually, we rely upon reference points, conceptual ideas, and feedback to give us guidelines as to how to be good or bad boys and girls, but such dependence is questionable. If you say to your doctor, "I have insomnia; how can I fall asleep?" the doctor responds by saying, "Take these pills. Then you will have no problem". In America in particular, that approach has become a problem. 

 

In tantra, the point is not how to handle ourselves but that we simply have to do it. We cannot trick ourselves into realizing the state of immovability, or indestructibility. Indestructibility is based on our experience, which is solid, dynamic, and unyielding. In that way, tantric discipline does not cooperate with any deception at all; therefore, it is regarded as indestructible, immovable. 

 

The tantric approach of non-participation in the games that go on in the samsaric world, however, is something more than boycotting. When we boycott something, we do so in the name of a protest. We disagree with certain systems or certain ideas, and therefore, we make a nuisance of ourselves. In this case, instead of boycotting the samsaric setup, we are fully and personally involved with it. We realize all the so-called benefits that the samsaric world might present to us - spiritual, psychological, and material goods of all kinds. We are fully aware of all the alternatives, but we do not yield to any of them at all. We are straightforward and hardheaded. That is the quality of immovability. 

 

The word hardheaded is very interesting. When we say somebody is hardheaded, we mean that he is not taken in by anything. That is precisely what is meant by the term vajra nature: hard-headedness, vajra-headedness. Vajra is a quality of toughness and not being taken in by any kind of seduction. We also talk about "hard truth." Such truth is hard, unyielding, and uncomplimentary. When we receive news of someone's death, it is the hard truth. We cannot go back and say that it is not true. We cannot hire an attorney to argue the case or spend our money trying to bring the person back to life, because it is the hard truth. In the same way, vajra nature is hard truth. We cannot challenge or manipulate it in any way at all. It is both direct and precise. 

 

- Chogyam Trungpa

[Jonesboy]

So we all need a guru, except your guru who apparently has no guru?

 

Sounds plausible.

 

 

I said a real guru can speed someone along and not by preaching, talking, teaching some system of practice that one has to do for an hour at a time. With a real guru there is no issue of power or control. A real guru is way beyond that.

 

Interesting how all you got out of it was, my guru has no guru but everyone needs a guru.

 

All the best to you,

 

Tom

[seekingbuddha]

This is a good thread,  let us carry on with posts relevant to original topic

[子泰]

you show me your guru and i'll show you my guru

[Michael Sternbach]

you show me your guru and i'll show you my guru

 

[johndoe2012]

Hey the Playboy Channel can be a good thing, although it is probably a bit too soft core...