Life after Awakening

[9th]

A ZEN STORY

  

A serious young man found the conflicts of mid 20th Century America confusing. He went to many people seeking a way of resolving within himself the discords that troubled him, but he remained troubled.

 

One night in a coffee house, a self-ordained Zen Master said to him, "go to the dilapidated mansion you will find at this address which I have written down for you. Do not speak to those who live there; you must remain silent until the moon rises tomorrow night. Go to the large room on the right of the main hallway, sit in the lotus position on top of the rubble in the northeast corner, face the corner, and meditate."

 

He did just as the Zen Master instructed. His meditation was frequently interrupted by worries. He worried whether or not the rest of the plumbing fixtures would fall from the second floor bathroom to join the pipes and other trash he was sitting on. He worried how would he know when the moon rose on the next night. He worried about what the people who walked through the room said about him.

 

His worrying and meditation were disturbed when, as if in a test of his faith, excrement fell from the second floor bathroom onto him. At that time two people walked into the room. The first asked the second who the man was sitting there was. The second replied "Some say he is a holy man. Others say he is a shithead."

 

Hearing this, the man was enlightened.

[seekingbuddha]

Orion,

    What are the  insights and practices you have gained from this thread, regarding  how to  maintain  your  heightened awareness and mind state,   in  light  of  daily  sufferings  that we face as  part of  life in society ?   Have you gotten input regarding this from your friends  who  claim  to live in  blissful  state  frequently  ?

[Spotless]

Dear Orion

 

You are experiencing an initial stage of Awakening. It can be quite disorienting and much of the advice here while well intentioned - is not based on either experience nor correct translation of translated experiences from the masters.

 

 

Such as the notions of negative emotion and suffering - (quite clearly misunderstood by some of the first posters here).

 

 

You will begin to notice the "negative" emotions will emit within your space but you are not "of them" and they pass through you in an uncommonly quick and relatively unattached way. You will notice that while you are in a position of suffering - you are not within the anxiousness of it. You can be emitting negative emotion and yet you are not - you can be suffering and yet you are not.

 

You have no inertia - hence a pointless ness - yet in this lack of inertia is a silence with no time no space. This may not have dawned on you yet.

 

Part of the bliss for some is a release from attachment and fear - you may not have had as much fear nor as much attachment - it is also a very misleading word - it is better in many ways referred to as a great lightness of being. This will come in many ways - it cannot be mistaken but it is by no means something to ponder from the point of any concern.

 

This lightness of being will also at some point include a great increase in light and other fine sensations and perceptions. It is a bliss not of trance or wild abandon - it is extraordinary - it is walking within spun golden light.

 

In this current state you may have found meditation of no interest - but you may find practices such as Qi Gong extremely useful.

Residual tendencies and some reflexive impulses appear - you may be quite distanced from them for a time - learn to be in this new side of no-inertia - not doing. Intuition and knowing replaces the "positioned" former "tensioned" noise based life.

 

It is only for a time this lack of doing - lack of position - lack of illusion and the pointless drum of noise that you were once a part of that is oddly found you now.

 

I would recommend you disregard most if not all you have been blessed with regarding advice here in this post and be with and explore this "pointlessness" - however - do work to continue to drop the residual old parts of you and labels such as pointlessness.

It is not necessary to replace former labels with new ones. And hopefully your continued growth will continue to expand exponentially.

 

For someone in your area that might be better able to mentor you at this point - look into batgap.com online.

Many of the awakened teachers there are helping newly Awakened people in their next steps. You can listen to them and choose who fits you better than another - some may resonate and some may not.

 

What you are experiencing is as perplexing to you as it is to those who have no real idea what you are going through. It does not translate well does it? You will hopefully go on to experience a great deal more that is even more difficult to translate:)

Edited January 14, 2016 by Spotless

[Aaron]

Before enlightenment you carry water and chop wood. After enlightenment you carry water and chop wood. In between you just try your darnedest not to go crazy. 

[seekingbuddha]

Orion,

 

you said (in OP).... "I still only see the pointlessness (not in a depressed way, but in a temporal way). I have so much love and compassion for other people and living things, but it doesn't negate that I feel like having to live this life and involve myself in material world tasks seems pointless."

 

I  wonder  how you overcame  this  mental state that  says  ...."Becoming engaged in the material world  is pointless."  From the numerous posts i have read in other threads, the standard reply goes....  "go for a walk or go to gym or do something".   But, in your case, there is an undercurrent of  pointlessness,  in all activities.  Since your feeling  runs deep, i wonder what you collected as insights, in order  to deal with  this  desire for  withdrawal from the material world/activities.

[Bud Jetsun]

Nice post spotless and many others.

 

 

Maybe pointless would be best described as creating the expectation it should be anything more or less than it has always been during this one fleeting moment.

 

The moment itself can only offer some sensory phenomena prior to its ensured conclusion. Therefore the beauty is in our choice to receive and interpret this phenomena with gratitude as a blessing.

 

Even if it has moments of confusion, this is the un-learning and un-programing happen as ones confidence in the illusion of expressable/relatable knowing is replaced by wisdom.

 

If you are choosing to feel sorrowful, be equally grateful, as to know a richness of life experience it requires downs to be capable of appreciation of the ups.

 

Choose to be mindfully grateful of the sensation of confusion and pointlessness.

 

When in doubt or confusion, mindfully appreciate the sensations or phenomena. Be sincere and mindful about it and you will lift perspective above and beyond its fog into the ocean of unlimited perfect bliss thats always been available and awaiting your appreciation given through the most sincere form of worship, your attention.

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[seekingbuddha]

Bud, nice and penetrating wisdom in that post.  I do realize the truth in your words, but practicing those suggestions  requires time devoted to cultivation.   Otherwise, one gets caught up in the worldly affairs that drag awareness and other qualities down.  That is why i mentioned  in previous post,  " ........this  desire for  withdrawal from the material world/activities."   Perhaps this gets easier after one's  retirement;  after one has the basic needs of life (ie. food, shelter, clothing, medical needs guaranteed for rest of life).   Being constantly engaged in the worldly affairs, directly results in compromise of the degree of awareness possible.  

[Spotless]

Bud, nice and penetrating wisdom in that post.  I do realize the truth in your words, but practicing those suggestions  requires time devoted to cultivation.   Otherwise, one gets caught up in the worldly affairs that drag awareness and other qualities down.  That is why i mentioned  in previous post,  " ........this  desire for  withdrawal from the material world/activities."   Perhaps this gets easier after one's  retirement;  after one has the basic needs of life (ie. food, shelter, clothing, medical needs guaranteed for rest of life).   Being constantly engaged in the worldly affairs, directly results in compromise of the degree of awareness possible.  

 

Please examine your words here above.

 

You have fenced off quite a bit and positioned yourself in what you have assumed based on "past".

 

Bud was quite precise in his choice of words - particularly the word "choose".

 

It can be quite a gift to be a householder in this business of Waking. It is obviously a gift you have given to yourself.

Exercise your choice to be in a state of awareness - and as you find yourself removed from it - find it again and again and again.

Gain and lose the world daily.

 

You are not a victim of circumstances - though you may be playing that part for now - you have never been a victim of circumstances.

 

Ones concept of "Worldly Affairs" is often an affair with ones perception of the world - where you are in that is far more a choice than is generally even remotely understood. But in this idea we fail because for the most part we believe "choice" is willfulness and overcoming. This is the person hammering a square peg into a round hole - the positioned life.

 

Life from a defensive positioned tension - it is the coffee in whose reactive base we gain impulse - we know no alternative.

 

This position is not required to function in "Worldy Affairs".

 

 

 

 

[RigdzinTrinley]

I just share what comes to mind after reading many of the posts here... Which are excellent btw

 

I remember when I started ngondro practice I went headlong into "great doubts" I lost all faith in my teacher and the lineage

 

I felt like "shoveling shit" and that I'm standing in an ocean of shit... A freaaaaking ocean

 

So I said to myself "this is not the dharma, this is a sect, they want to brainwash me!!!!" - this tantric stuff is paaaaainful where is the bliss? The blisssssss!!!!! Mahasukha for buddhas sake MAHA SUKHA!!!! Not shit shoveling...

 

So I stumbled along without the light of certainty trying to practice tantra (suicidal when I think back, but very important as well - because tantra is egocidal anyway, but there are safety mmeasures... didn't believe the warnings really - btw I'm full of ego still but that's another story)

 

Anyway I met my lamas and told them my misery and they said - meditate on death

 

Really? I feel so depressed and hopeless and they tell me that...

 

So I asked some extra gurus

 

Meditate on death

 

OK let's meditate on death and start existing in a world of walking skeletons.. Great

 

While shoveling shit for hours every day.

 

I went from doubt to great doubt

 

From depression to utter f'in depression

 

But there was some trust in those beings so I marched on - like a good little soldier (foolish but devoted... Not a good combination but falling from the sky is not so bad after all)

 

And i marched through - took me a couple of months

 

Still there is shit to shovel

 

But then might as well have fun and sing some songs while working on the great work

 

And remember "you have to go"

 

Awakened or ignorant in your view doesn't matter - this will kill you and if you're lucky nature (as you don't have a formal guru) will kill you before your body dies

 

(I don't say meditate on death or something like that just talking whatever came to mind)

[RigdzinTrinley]

Also I hope this doesn't come off as too harsh, I forgot that you had many experiences of near fatal sickness

 

So my death talk might be a bit much

 

On the other hand I feel a lot of honesty and dedication so why not be a bit more direct

 

Again the instruction to meditate on death was for me from the guru principle for a certain point of the path and I don't feel like giving advice at all, just telling a bit of my story adi hope it helps you keep walking

(I still meditate on death daily, became a habit to remembered I'm dead already - mind you I'm just pretending and don't have that kind of realisation. I'm very much bound by hope and fear, and very much bound by my thoughts and feeling... So obviously I didn't die before I died)

Edited January 25, 2016 by RigdzinTrinley

[seekingbuddha]

Please examine your words here above. You have fenced off quite a bit and positioned yourself in what you have assumed based on "past". Bud was quite precise in his choice of words - particularly the word "choose". It can be quite a gift to be a householder in this business of Waking. It is obviously a gift you have given to yourself. Exercise your choice to be in a state of awareness - and as you find yourself removed from it - find it again and again and again. Gain and lose the world daily. You are not a victim of circumstances - though you may be playing that part for now - you have never been a victim of circumstances. Ones concept of "Worldly Affairs" is often an affair with ones perception of the world - where you are in that is far more a choice than is generally even remotely understood. But in this idea we fail because for the most part we believe "choice" is willfulness and overcoming. This is the person hammering a square peg into a round hole - the positioned life. Life from a defensive positioned tension - it is the coffee in whose reactive base we gain impulse - we know no alternative. This position is not required to function in "Worldy Affairs".

 

Thank you spotless, for bringing me back to contemplation.  I understand most of what you said, though some words are beyond my experience level and hence beyond my understanding.  I understand that it is a "choice" that we make to stay in awareness amidst the daily affairs in society.  But, i do tend to get caught up, and get overwhelmed by the 6 senses when i immerse myself  too deeply  into usual daily grind.  I guess i am not grown enough to withstand the onslaught of the 6 senses, and still dwell  in those wholesome foundations needed for liberation.  So, i spoke of my experience - it has been that my awareness/tranquility/stability/wisdom   is directly proportional to the time i dedicate to meditation, away from the daily grind and  household obligations.   I am open to guidance from experiential  wisdom.

[Spotless]

The six senses to name just a few are no problem - what they encounter are not temptress - your great vehicle is made to take in a great deal.

 

Look at what you resist.

 

You resist the hustle and bustle - it takes you away from yourself - or does the resistance?

 

What is the resistance? Your positions.

 

Examine the necessity of your positions - they wall you off from all that seeks to entwine and play and unfold with you.

 

You have been in the zone - remember the zone - not the full bore Hunter Thomson hell bent for leather metallic stuff - but the no effort free floating incredible zone.

 

Resistance is like a magnet for exactly what you resist - it is the frequency of the tuning fork - the willfulness in tune with the repulsion. It is a frequency you chose - until you no longer are IN that play and you have moved on - not moved on by choice as in doing - moved on because it has played out - you've outgrown it. It may have taken lifetimes because you really believed in that position and the inertia held its imprint over many lives.

 

Step aside for a moment from your resistance - all the fear is false - the entire world will do fine if you hold no opinion or give no judgement. Try a diet of no judgement.

 

Try a diet of no media when you can.

 

If meditating is difficult go to a movie and listen to non-vocal music - choose a clean headspace - go driving.

 

I have an 8 year old - I'm a householder - a business owner and husband. The worlds that I used to choose were tensioned and rigid and sharp with critique - they fell away but slowly they came back and in the process of settling into this awakened awareness a miraculous life has transpired.

 

It was always miraculous - but I was rigidized and afixed on noise - and on keeping the buzz buzzing. If I was not buzzing and creating a buzz it felt like I had given up - been beaten, thwarted or failed.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Spotless

[johndoe2012]

I find listening to eg Papaji satsangs very helpful in quieting the mind.

 

You can find many on Youtube.

 

One clip here

 

 

EDIT: not sure why only a link appears here and not the video.

Edited February 4, 2016 by johndoe2012

[Jonesboy]

Hi johndoe,

 

Just an off-topic comment about your internal fire energy practice http://community.livingunbound.net/index.php?/topic/349-primordial-foundation-energy-practice-internal-fire/ in your signature above. That practice is quite concerning to me. Anyone who does that meditation 8 times a day is undermining their spiritual life. There is no need to incorporate that much sun energy or that much earth energy into one's energy body. It might feel life envigorating, but the results are more like an internal sunburn. Please practice with caution.

 

Best to you --

I have found no issues with Internal fire.

 

I agree 8 times can be a lot which is why you will see my post saying to start off slow . Like 5 minutes before meditation and work from there.

 

I found it to be really grounded and I loved how the energy would flow through my heart.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Jonesboy

[Jetsun]

[C T]

I dont think energetic practices can be harmful if one has the correct motivation, a primary one being to gain strength so as to be able to genuinely help others by sharing with them one's progressive wisdom and compassion. Then it will always have merit, and will tend to bear fruit quicker. 

 

Even the most sublime energetic practice will be poisonous if its solely based on self-centred needs. 

Edited February 5, 2016 by C T

[dawei]

--- Topic Split on Internal Fire Practice here ---

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/40423-internal-fire-practice/

[seekingbuddha]

Getting  back to the  original  topic.....

 

Spotless,  thank you for your wisdom.  I found resonance with the following words:  "Try a diet of no judgement.  Try a diet of no media when you can. If meditating is difficult go to a movie and listen to non-vocal music - choose a clean headspace - go driving."    So, i will keep these in my mind.  Ups and downs are waves of existence one must face.

 

I will have to arouse energy to strive further in my path, and to integrate practices into my life.   As you said,  these positions/views  have been built over many lifetimes and are not easy to let go.  Sometimes i feel that it is ridiculous to think that one  can  overcome  lifetimes of  karma,  with  just my volition / free-will / energy / aspiration.  Put another way,  how can i  think that my thinking/effort is enough to overcome  the will of the cosmos/universe/God/karma/whatever-else-you-call-it.    This has been a topic of  my contemplations  for some time now.  I have found some answers/thoughts in this regard, but do not want to derail this thread further.   Contemplations and theories  should not interfere with  practice and effort to further myself along THE PATH.

[seekingbuddha]

Jetsun,  Thanks for that  wonderful quote from Tolle.  It has expressed with clarity a feeling that i have not been able to express in words so clearly to even myself.  I think the  key word is found in the final  sentence of that quote -  "Purpose".  

 

In my contemplations,  I have not been able to find any other "purpose"  that is so luminous, as the "purpose of doing good to other living beings".  This maybe just doing good to our family, or to our friends or to our  nearby society,  or to humanity itself  (if one has the energy and ability to extend their reach that far). 

Edited February 6, 2016 by seekingbuddha

[Spotless]

I dont think energetic practices can be harmful if one has the correct motivation, a primary one being to gain strength so as to be able to genuinely help others by sharing with them one's progressive wisdom and compassion. Then it will always have merit, and will tend to bear fruit quicker. 

 

Even the most sublime energetic practice will be poisonous if its solely based on self-centred needs. 

 

------

 

There are a great many energetic practices that are "harmful".

 

Harmful to health as well as in creating great detours - detours that can last lifetimes.

 

Well intentioned has little to do with it - at some point their isn't sanctity in ignorance.

 

"A primary one being to gain strength"

 

The definition for most energetic practice regarding "gaining strength" is to increase vibration. You can do this with many practices - you can also take some Crack and increase your vibration. You can take Acid with great intentions and then Ayawaska and Mushrooms and pretty soon you are on a road of artificial ideas about yourself and your accomplishments and what you have to offer others in Wisdom and Compassion all done in the sport of good intentions and exploration.

 

These things are highly addictive and like Fox News and many of our Religions - they are infectious and riddled with dis-ease and poor means.

 

In this propensity the inertia of many energetic practices make one blind to the feast before them.

 

Their is nothing wrong with energetic practice per se - but good intentions often have no merit - Fox News believes it is well intentioned - most religions believe they are well intentioned - what exactly is "good intention"?

 

Read the Socratic dialogs on Virtue if you think that is an easy one to answer.

 

Their is a certain knowing regarding the overal thinking in this quote - the idea that wishing to steer in the direction of the expansion of awareness is an undeniable "good intention" and this has a strong patina of truth in it.

 

In practice - the vehicle - our great vehicle - is used as a sort of car and we hyper fuel it and like the feel of the ride and speed - it's exciting. Like riding a horse - nothing wrong with a well intentioned whip to get moving.

 

But our great vehicle is not a car - and a horse unfolds as a far greater spirit if not beaten.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[C T]

------ There are a great many energetic practices that are "harmful". Harmful to health as well as in creating great detours - detours that can last lifetimes. Well intentioned has little to do with it - at some point their isn't sanctity in ignorance. "A primary one being to gain strength" The definition for most energetic practice regarding "gaining strength" is to increase vibration. You can do this with many practices - you can also take some Crack and increase your vibration. You can take Acid with great intentions and then Ayawaska and Mushrooms and pretty soon you are on a road of artificial ideas about yourself and your accomplishments and what you have to offer others in Wisdom and Compassion all done in the sport of good intentions and exploration. These things are highly addictive and like Fox News and many of our Religions - they are infectious and riddled with dis-ease and poor means. In this propensity the inertia of many energetic practices make one blind to the feast before them. Their is nothing wrong with energetic practice per se - but good intentions often have no merit - Fox News believes it is well intentioned - most religions believe they are well intentioned - what exactly is "good intention"? Read the Socratic dialogs on Virtue if you think that is an easy one to answer. Their is a certain knowing regarding the overal thinking in this quote - the idea that wishing to steer in the direction of the expansion of awareness is an undeniable "good intention" and this has a strong patina of truth in it. In practice - the vehicle - our great vehicle - is used as a sort of car and we hyper fuel it and like the feel of the ride and speed - it's exciting. Like riding a horse - nothing wrong with a well intentioned whip to get moving. But our great vehicle is not a car - and a horse unfolds as a far greater spirit if not beaten.

its easy to take something simple and spin it out of its intended premise.

[Spotless]

Getting  back to the  original  topic.....

 

Spotless,  thank you for your wisdom.  I found resonance with the following words:  "Try a diet of no judgement.  Try a diet of no media when you can. If meditating is difficult go to a movie and listen to non-vocal music - choose a clean headspace - go driving."    So, i will keep these in my mind.  Ups and downs are waves of existence one must face.

 

I will have to arouse energy to strive further in my path, and to integrate practices into my life.   As you said,  these positions/views  have been built over many lifetimes and are not easy to let go.  Sometimes i feel that it is ridiculous to think that one  can  overcome  lifetimes of  karma,  with  just my volition / free-will / energy / aspiration.  Put another way,  how can i  think that my thinking/effort is enough to overcome  the will of the cosmos/universe/God/karma/whatever-else-you-call-it.    This has been a topic of  my contemplations  for some time now.  I have found some answers/thoughts in this regard, but do not want to derail this thread further.   Contemplations and theories  should not interfere with  practice and effort to further myself along THE PATH.

 

In the above quote you mention:

 "Sometimes i feel that it is ridiculous to think that one  can  overcome  lifetimes of  karma,  with  just my volition / free-will / energy / aspiration.  Put another way,  how can i  think that my thinking/effort is enough to overcome  the will of the cosmos/universe/God/karma/whatever-else-you-call-it."

 

This is an incorrect view of Karma - it is the punishment/debt view of karma - and it is a false view. It is a common view and I am not finding fault with your particular position here but karma is something else altogether:

 

It is much more like the resonance that you are most saturated in - you can move past "vast amounts of karma" relatively quickly because it is not an accumulation but more like a proclivity and patterning - patterning often willfully compressed sometimes outrageously so.

 

But it is not debt per se - it is not a sentence in payment for misdeeds - it has no judgement on it.

 

it is an engine of energy that is driven by the inertia of the vibrations you are habituated to, familiar with and in accord with.

 

Their is not really any such thing as good karma and bad karma - this is a quaint referral - though I am not interested in arguing the topic - many love their punishments and love their rewards.

 

As one moves through the wheel of karma - the spectral compressions heat us and stretch us and compress us and we are in constant refinement. We are the spirit being distilled in a sense.

 

In your practice you are not "gaining merit" in the sense of some deliverable purchasing trade currency. You do not buy down your "karmic debt". You move beyond it - and it is not debt - it does not exist.

 

Ones entire Karmic Load is zero - ones propensities and the strength/compression/rigidity of them is ones Karma.

 

Merit is not accumulated and no one can take merit from you and merit does not exist per se - it is of the same nature as Karma.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jeff]

In the above quote you mention:

 "Sometimes i feel that it is ridiculous to think that one  can  overcome  lifetimes of  karma,  with  just my volition / free-will / energy / aspiration.  Put another way,  how can i  think that my thinking/effort is enough to overcome  the will of the cosmos/universe/God/karma/whatever-else-you-call-it."

 

This is an incorrect view of Karma - it is the punishment/debt view of karma - and it is a false view. It is a common view and I am not finding fault with your particular position here but karma is something else altogether:

 

It is much more like the resonance that you are most saturated in - you can move past "vast amounts of karma" relatively quickly because it is not an accumulation but more like a proclivity and patterning - patterning often willfully compressed sometimes outrageously so.

 

But it is not debt per se - it is not a sentence in payment for misdeeds - it has no judgement on it.

 

it is an engine of energy that is driven by the inertia of the vibrations you are habituated to, familiar with and in accord with.

 

Their is not really any such thing as good karma and bad karma - this is a quaint referral - though I am not interested in arguing the topic - many love their punishments and love their rewards.

 

As one moves through the wheel of karma - the spectral compressions heat us and stretch us and compress us and we are in constant refinement. We are the spirit being distilled in a sense.

 

In your practice you are not "gaining merit" in the sense of some deliverable purchasing trade currency. You do not buy down your "karmic debt". You move beyond it - and it is not debt - it does not exist.

 

Ones entire Karmic Load is zero - ones propensities and the strength/compression/rigidity of them is ones Karma.

 

Merit is not accumulated and no one can take merit from you and merit does not exist per se - it is of the same nature as Karma.

 

Very well said and worth repeating.

[seekingbuddha]

Since we are discussing karma, i have continued this discussion in the new thread that someone has started regarding "karma".  We don't want to derail this thread topic.

[RigdzinTrinley]

Yes but what spotless said there was indeed very good!!! Well said