Taichi, Hsing I, Bagua....etc

[shazan]

Hi,

 

What are the difference in physical objectives and energies cultivated by these traditional internal forms.

 

Taichi

Hsing I

Bagua zhang

Liu He Ba Fa

I chuan

[Walker]

Depends who you ask. I have heard many explanations, some extremely complicated. Some even more complicated than that. I prefer the opposite one: no difference.

[Chang]

They are all branches of the same tree, namely, Taoist, Soft, Internal Martial Arts.

 

Whilst we could debate regarding the advantages of one over the others this is entirely arbitrary. If you partake of any of these arts then simply study and practice - they all lead to the same destination.

[cheya]

Not a practitioner of any of these arts, but I love this quote, first run across in Scott Meredith's blogs:

 

"Therefore when learning how to practice the boxing, it starts from emptiness and returns to emptiness. When you reach this point, the notions of Xingyi, Bagua, or Taiji all disappear into nothing but waves and ripples, a vagueness of oneness in which there can no longer be a “Taiji” or a “Xingyi” or a “Bagua”. Therefore the practice of the boxing arts does not lie in the postures, only in the spirit and energy being fully rounded and without gaps."

 

from taiji classics, Sun Fuquan (Lutang): The Voices of Sun Lutang’s Teachers (Che Yizhai), 1924 (transl. Paul Brennan, 2013)

 

(Lifted from http://www.taiji-zlatipetelin.si/en/category/library/quotes/ )

 

Edited January 2, 2016 by cheya

[NotVoid]

Hi,

 

What are the difference in physical objectives and energies cultivated by these traditional internal forms.

 

Taichi

Hsing I

Bagua zhang

Liu He Ba Fa

I chuan

 

The physical self defense approaches for the three main ones, taij quan, xingyi quan, and bagua zhang at least are different in approach. Taiji is very much about non-resistance and redirecting the opponent's force, and attacking once the opponent has been lead off balance or when their attack has otherwise become empty, and that sort of thing. Xingyi uses a lot of diagonal and quick forward stepping and hand deflections to avoid attacks while at the same time attacking. Bagua uses continuous stepping and a lot of spinning and twisting and circling to the side and behind to avoid attacks and then subsequently attacking. Bagua is not something I have really practiced, but it appears to me to work on building up and requiring a lot of whole body flexibility to execute well, so it could be hard for older people to start learning. All three of them require building up flexibility and strength in various different ways however.

 

Yiquan, from what I can gather,  was apparently built up on the 'inner door' zhan zhuang neigong building practices of xingyi, and by very much de-emphasizing the forms practice to the point that set forms are not practiced. I have come across various sources that state that zhan zhuang was also emphasized as an inner door practice by at least some some taiji and bagua masters, if not many,  as well for building the high degree of neigong skill required for these martial arts, so zhan zhuang would appear to be important in building the neigong foundation for the internal martial arts.

 

Liuhebafa, seems to be practiced in various different ways by many teachers these days, some teaching it much like taijiquan, and other teachers having added aspects of bagua and xingyi to the form practice. I have come across one school which claims to be teaching the original liuhebafa system, but the teacher of that school seems to be hunching up and looking down towards his feet area way too much for my liking. The way he practices doesn't look that healthy to me, but it may well still be effective as a martial art. Don't know.

 

As to the internal aspects, no doubt these different arts make use of the internal energy in some different ways, with different emphases, but they are all supposed to be built on developing strong neigong as the foundation, hence the classification of them being internal martial arts, although these days it seems to be getting harder and harder to find teachers who have a high degree of neigong skill them self and who also teach with the emphasis on neigong development.

 

I have encountered teachers of bagua and xingyi who teach these martial arts as if they are external martial arts with no emphasis at all on neigong development, which seems very odd to me, but what they are teaching may still be effective in self defense to some degree. It seems to me however that if you are going to take the neigong foundation out of the internal martial arts, then you are probably better off learning something like karate or taequando or jujitsu or some other external martial art which make effective use of external techniques in self defense. IMO learning these internal martial arts without strong emphasis on developing neigong skill kind of defeats the purpose of these arts as being 'internal' arts, but certainly just practicing the forms itself in taiji, bagua and xingyi can potentially build up some degree of neigong skill if practiced with correct form and with emphasis on proper body relaxation and with using the mind intent to lead movements, etc. I think some schools of xingyi practice xingyi very much like an external martial art, and that might still be quite effective as a martial art, but it seems the roots of xingyi are really as an internal art, although such roots seem to have possibly become lost or at least de-emphasized in some schools.

 

Many of the great internal masters of the past started when they were quite young and practiced for many hours each day, so reaching a high degree of skill level in the internal arts is probably not so easy in modern times where many people don't have a lot of time for practicing the internal martial arts every day.  Even if people only practice an hour a day or even less, there can be many health benefits from practicing the internal martial arts however.

Edited January 2, 2016 by NotVoid

[RiverSnake]

The physical self defense approaches for the three main ones, taij quan, xingyi quan, and bagua zhang at least are different in approach. Taiji is very much about non-resistance and redirecting the opponent's force, and attacking once the opponent has been lead off balance or when their attack has otherwise become empty, and that sort of thing. Xingyi uses a lot of diagonal and quick forward stepping and hand deflections to avoid attacks while at the same time attacking. Bagua uses continuous stepping and a lot of spinning and twisting and circling to the side and behind to avoid attacks and then subsequently attacking. Bagua is not something I have really practiced, but it appears to me to work on building up and requiring a lot of whole body flexibility to execute well, so it could be hard for older people to start learning. All three of them require building up flexibility and strength in various different ways however.

 

Yiquan, from what I can gather,  was apparently built up on the 'inner door' zhan zhuang neigong building practices of xingyi, and by very much de-emphasizing the forms practice to the point that set forms are not practiced. I have come across various sources that state that zhan zhuang was also emphasized as an inner door practice by at least some some taiji and bagua masters, if not many,  as well for building the high degree of neigong skill required for these martial arts, so zhan zhuang would appear to be important in building the neigong foundation for the internal martial arts.

 

Liuhebafa, seems to be practiced in various different ways by many teachers these days, some teaching it much like taijiquan, and other teachers having added aspects of bagua and xingyi to the form practice. I have come across one school which claims to be teaching the original liuhebafa system, but the teacher of that school seems to be hunching up and looking down towards his feet area way too much for my liking. The way he practices doesn't look that healthy to me, but it may well still be effective as a martial art. Don't know.

 

As to the internal aspects, no doubt these different arts make use of the internal energy in some different ways, with different emphases, but they are all supposed to be built on developing strong neigong as the foundation, hence the classification of them being internal martial arts, although these days it seems to be getting harder and harder to find teachers who have a high degree of neigong skill them self and who also teach with the emphasis on neigong development.

 

I have encountered teachers of bagua and xingyi who teach these martial arts as if they are external martial arts with no emphasis at all on neigong development, which seems very odd to me, but what they are teaching may still be effective in self defense to some degree. It seems to me however that if you are going to take the neigong foundation out of the internal martial arts, then you are probably better off learning something like karate or taequando or jujitsu or some other external martial art which make effective use of external techniques in self defense. IMO learning these internal martial arts without strong emphasis on developing neigong skill kind of defeats the purpose of these arts as being 'internal' arts, but certainly just practicing the forms itself in taiji, bagua and xingyi can potentially build up some degree of neigong skill if practiced with correct form and with emphasis on proper body relaxation and with using the mind intent to lead movements, etc. I think some schools of xingyi practice xingyi very much like an external martial art, and that might still be quite effective as a martial art, but it seems the roots of xingyi are really as an internal art, although such roots seem to have possibly become lost or at least de-emphasized in some schools.

 

Many of the great internal masters of the past started when they were quite young and practiced for many hours each day, so reaching a high degree of skill level in the internal arts is probably not so easy in modern times where many people don't have a lot of time for practicing the internal martial arts every day.  Even if people only practice an hour a day or even less, there can be many health benefits from practicing the internal martial arts however.

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing your expertise. 

[Astral Monk]

Branches from the same root, expressions of a common foundation. Internally the chi flows from the body out to the limbs. Wuji lies at the root. The martial applications are variations Of strategy, as others noted. Xingyi employs lots of linear power, bagua Zhang uses twisting spiral power, taiji chuan uses the void to entice force into emptyness and nullify power.

 

 

Xingyi also uses animal forms in practice, although bagua does have some animal form applications. Basically, you will find similar themes in all three arts even while the central focus varies.

 

 

Don't know much about the other two mentioned, but the truth is that there could be endless expressions arising from the common root of internal practice.

 

 

There was a lot of cross-style cultivation in the early 1900s, which seems like kind of a golden age.

 

 

 

Lots of great health benefits from these arts and their foundation practices.

 

 

8)

Edited January 2, 2016 by Astral Monk

[Wu Ming Jen]

If you practice any of these disciplines you will be benefited thousands of times over and all illness will vanish to dust.

 

you will be practicing neigong even of it is not your aim then you will be the true source of understanding, no outside authority needed by simple physical practice.

[Samoobramba]

IMHO, they are different methods that uses the same principles.

[opendao]

What are the difference in physical objectives and energies cultivated by these traditional internal forms.

 

Taichi

Hsing I

Bagua zhang

Liu He Ba Fa

I chuan

 

that's a hard question, because nowadays there are a lot of versions that are very far away from the originals of the arts. There are people who do any of them using physical power-Li, there are teachers who mix various styles and so on. 

 

But if we explore these arts to their roots, we'll see that the neigong is similar, fajing is similar, movements are different, and the approach to training is very different. They all come to the same top, but the path is not the same at all. Moreover, it can start at different points.

 

Any ways, find at least one teacher who knows any of these internal systems and can fight, showing skills much above the average, then it really doesn't matter what is the name of the style he teaches 

[zerostao]

this type of thread used to get a fair amount of commentary on this forum

from a basic perspective, basic, which is above my level, and i entered pakua chang play seeking good health and a path to tao rather than martial aspirations, 

and with less than ten years, quite a bit less, play, take it for what it is. basic.

any of the three main styles taiji bagua xingyi, you have developed an internal game hopefully, recognize other center, well acquainted with own center coming from fundamentals. meditation benefits these arts complimentary.

from a center to center perspective, xingyi straight up goes for other center. bagua moves own center while gaining angle on other center, taiji is right in front of other but other can not recognize a good taiji player's center. all of these are on neuro level and spirit level, so higher develop spirit holds sway, so meditate and play.

from each we develop six harmonies, which could lead one to water boxing. there are others as was mentioned earlier, consider extreme fortunate to have these arts so openly available nowadays. 

[Gerard]

They all are very different even though they seem to appear the same. In essence:

 

Taiji: expand-contract a large ball, all parts move equally.

 

Bagua: twist, turn, whirl, internal organs are highly massaged and opening of the meridians is focused upon, move around the centre, return to the Tao.

 

Xingyi: full force forward, nothing gets in my way, develops the ego which is a problem.

 

Yiquan: a simplified version of Xingyi with some very basic Bagua and TJQ principles.

 

No idea about Liu He Ba Fa, as I don't have experience with it.

 

Note:

 

1. If you are looking for an effective martial art: Xingyi is the winner due to its maximum results minimum effort approach. For healing and spiritual purposes, Bagua.

 

2. For a combination of the above, TJQ is the ideal and most complete IMA system but you should expect decades of practice, due to its complexity and steep learning curve. In addition TJ is not the best system to remove deep blockages which explains why some practitioners traditionally supplemented their practice with Xingyi or Bagua for a period of time.

 

3. It wouldn't be fair to leave I Liq Quan out, a awareness-based internal art as in mindfulness applied to IMA principles.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Gerard

[lifeforce]

Xinyiliuhequan cannot be overlooked also. THE most aggressive martial art I've ever seen and experienced. Created for one purpose only : to destroy your opponent without any mercy.

[RiverSnake]

from a center to center perspective, xingyi straight up goes for other center. bagua moves own center while gaining angle on other center, taiji is right in front of other but other can not recognize a good taiji player's center. all of these are on neuro level and spirit level, so higher develop spirit holds sway, so meditate and play.

from each we develop six harmonies, which could lead one to water boxing. there are others as was mentioned earlier, consider extreme fortunate to have these arts so openly available nowadays. 

 

I can dig it. Thanks Zero.

[shanlung]

Cross posting from

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/24575-taijiquan-styles/page-8

 

 

Posted 02 January 2016 - 05:05 PM

I have written about how I was thrown about and learned humility in meeting the ground from different angles from two of my Masters who were almost skin and bones and appeared hardly able to walk about.

 

In 1990s, hardly any videos other than heavy weight video cameras were around.  And even if I had, would hardly had taken videos of what I thought were normal occurrences , at least to me , after the initial phase of dis beliefs.  After all, I met my Masters on almost every mornings and 2 sundays on of the month (other sundays were devoted to mountain climbings)

 

All the stuff on weight transfer and muscle forces , waist power etc etc were driven out of me.  Not that that will ever stop folks whose fixations will be that everything and all can and must be explained from the angle of Western sciences or even pseudo western sciences.

 

I have seen a couple of videos where such tossing about reminded me of my times with those Masters.

Let us bear in mind that while many stuff seen can be duplicated via cheating and playactings, and one can easily pooh poohed what is video tape as hogwash and fakes, true events occured.

 

Such as talks of John Chang having some electric shock machine hidden on his body to give electric shocks.  There was yet another Master at the Sun Yat Sen Memorial Hall training at the South Entrance that I had the chance of hands on even if I did not continued on with him.  He was a big fat bloated Chinese man.  His students who touched him were repelled away and I was in disbelief.  He was nice enough to hand on with me and in the next moment, I felt a shock running through my body with me bouncing away.  To be told by full time dedicated debunkers who know not where their mouth end and arsehole start that those events were done by hoax can be hilarious.  They can believe in whatever that they want to believe in.

 

The first video is of Lee Chu Gong of ChengJia taijichuan.  His lineage is from Chen Fah Ker.  Through Hong Jung Seng, CFK student.

 

Do try to convince yourself that his fajing was nothing but sinking of body weight.  Failing that, what you have seen must be a huge attempt to hoax gullible westerners of mysterious powers.  I was thrown away by my Masters more dramatically than that in video as they knew of my judo background and ability to break falls and that I did not feel degraded by being tossed about.

 

 

The next  video is of an elderly gentleman in Bagua Chang.

Do try to convince yourself that it was all mechanics of sinking of weight and bending of waist and alignment of feet and joints.  Failing that it was all another hoax that clever Westerners will never fall for.

 

Fajing is not a property of taijichuan.  That Master Liu of that HsingKongYuan was not a taiji man even if he kept brushing aside  what jia he was.  I believed he was of the liu her bah fah  六 合 八 法 .  He with my other Masters told me whatever jia or pai would not matter once one can ting jing and more important, dong jing.

 

 

 

 

shanlung, on 23 Feb 2013 - 15:47, said:

 

 
Until Tinkerbell came into my life.
And taijichuan went out as a result as I could not even find that 90 minutes daily.
 
But not entirely. 
 But that’s another story.

 

 

 

That was in 2009.  Since I was writing on totally different kind of crowd (birdie/beastie folks) with my son making cameo appearances . I did not mentioned about it then.  But it came into my mind when I was writing above.

 

 

With my son in Budapest and Amsterdam // Setting the foundations for Riamfada's future

 

My son was in Budapest taking part in an IM chess tournament after a lay off of many years.  I took time off my Oman assignment to fly there to give him moral support.  That winter was one of the coldest winter in Europe.

Walking about Budapest left you frozen and after a couple of times, we did just hung about the hotel.

 

My son had a black 1 dan in Aikido.  I laid off my taijichuan since Tinkerbell came into my life and I could not find that 90 mins just to tick over and I thought I forgot it all.  I had not seen him for a few years prior to Budapest and I was curious of his Aikido and talked of martial arts.  

 

We got to the corridor outside the room for a bit more space.  On first hands on together, I was surprised at how stiff I perceived of him, his body and arm.  As he moved in on me, I felt his intentions telegraphed to me.  I thought aikido was soft and therefore aikido players should not be stiff like wood.    

I went into a li.  It felt natural for me to fah jing into my li notwithstanding I laid off even ticking over taijichuan for 9 years.  In the Li, his arm came and in that split second, I knew his body did not.

 

To my horror, I pulled my son's arm out of his shoulder socket  Needless to say, it all came to a stop.

 

After that initial shock, I pop back the joint and to my relief, no lasting damage.  He consoled me that happened before to him.  Even so, I felt so quilty of what I had done.

 

 

Idiotic Taoist who can be very stupid

 

[Gerard]

Yes definitively! It would be like Chen to TJQ as opposed to the softness and more internal nature of the Yang style; or in Bagua the hardness of Yin Fu and the softness of Cheng Tinghua styles.

 

Xinyi: Heart-Mind vs Xingyi: Form-Mind. Xinyi more aggressive/internal, Xingyi more external/form based.

 

Interesting to see how Yin & Yang shape all IMA according to the nature of the practitioners.