What is Kung Fu?

[Mudryah]

Good series to watch:

 

[Junko]

 

Kung-fu is one of the martial arts on this planet.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Junko

[Taomeow]

Two meanings which a Chinese speaker would discern from the context. 

 

Kung fu the martial art. 

 

And kung fu the cultivated skill aiming for, leading to, or accomplishing perfection, impeccability, at any task undertaken.  In this sense it always involves conscious and persistent effort whose outcome is effortlessness; often it implies great difficulties voluntarily self-imposed and successfully overcome.  "Excellent kung fu!" is the kind of praise, in this second sense, that may refer to a philosophical syllogism, a culinary creation, a painting, or someone's moral character, or even an apt joke.  Or any martial art besides kung fu for that matter.

[dust]

TM I agree, especially with your second definition. Though rather than "kung fu the martial art" I would suggest that, for most Chinese, it is a general term for Chinese martial arts, pretty much interchangeable with wushu 武术 (literally 'martial arts') in every day speech.

 

Some Chinese sources suggest that it is a term that can encompass the whole of the Chinese tradition of martial arts and personal cultivation. Baidu goes as far as:

 

 

功夫，是民族智慧的结晶，是汉族传统文化的体现，是世界上独一无二的“武化”

 

Gongfu is the crystallization of the people's wisdom, the incarnation of traditional Han culture, a 'martial culture' unique in the world

[Taomeow]

TM I agree, especially with your second definition. Though rather than "kung fu the martial art" I would suggest that, for most Chinese, it is a general term for Chinese martial arts, pretty much interchangeable with wushu 武术 (literally 'martial arts') in every day speech.

 

Some Chinese sources suggest that it is a term that can encompass the whole of the Chinese tradition of martial arts and personal cultivation. Baidu goes as far as:

 

 

功夫，是民族智慧的结晶，是汉族传统文化的体现，是世界上独一无二的“武化”

 

Gongfu is the crystallization of the people's wisdom, the incarnation of traditional Han culture, a 'martial culture' unique in the world

 

Right! 

 

I might have said "third meaning is kung fu the martial art" since it is used in this sense too, but more so by people knowledgeable about "martial styles" which of course practitioners of internal styles are even reluctant to lump together with wushu because of the sports, "for competitions" or "for show" (rather than for personal spiritual cultivation) connotations of the latter.  In fact, among "real" taiji practitioners, a remark "this is wushu" in reference to their performance is a put-down.

 

Now then, kung fu the martial art is not incorrect either, it's just a more narrow specialized distinction, as in, "the art of Shaolin is kung fu and the art of Wudangshan is taiji."  It is a grey zone actually, since some "researchers" may deny a sharp demarcation line between internal and external arts.  However those who have practiced both know the difference one hundred percent.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Taomeow

[dust]

Good series to watch:

 

Pretty good definition in there. I've been wondering about watching it... might give it a go after having seen this!

[Taomeow]

I've seen it.  It's pretty good. 

[soaring crane]

Shaolin/Wudang is Buddhist/Daoist no?

[Chang]

Shaolin/Wudang is Buddhist/Daoist no?

 

Traditionally Shaolin Arts would be Buddhist and Wudang Daoist.

[Taomeow]

Shaolin/Wudang is Buddhist/Daoist no?

 

Yes.  And nothing illustrates the difference between the two better than their approach to martial arts. 

 

Buddhist practices aim at transforming the body so it feels nothing -- martial skill relies on this insensitivity -- Iron Palm, Iron Shirt, Iron Crotch, Golden Bell, sandbags to hit till the hand is one callus, pummeling iron pellets, hitting the body with logs, iron rods, iron beaters, hitting the head against hard objects or breaking hard objects on the head, every inch of the body is made hard, tough, able to withstand and oppose great force and feel nothing.  Your enemy is then up against a formidable force that is only stoppable by greater force, not by pain, fear, or any other human feelings.  An enemy who has figured it out will have to engage greater and greater force to defeat you.      

 

Whereas taoist practices aim at transforming the body so it feels everything -- martial skill relies on this sensitivity, you learn to "know thyself" rather than "change thyself" -- but this knowing is what changes you, feeling "everything" is tapping into your human potential which can't be discovered unless you train yourself to feel more, more, more -- and this increased sensitivity reveals others to you, you learn to feel the opponent's every strength and weakness -- feel his "design" so precisely and in such great detail that to disassemble it you only need to punch a "shut down" key, push a "delete" button, touch the screwdriver to that one crucial screw and the whole back panel falls out.  You don't need to smash that machine with an iron rod to make it stop.  Your opponent is up against no force at all, instead he is attacking an infinitely receptive and perceptive withdrawal of force --- so the only way he can defeat you is by not using his own.  But how can he defeat you if he is not using his force against you?..  An enemy who has figured it out stops attacking.

[Gerard]

In the light of Taomeow's post, this is kung fu:

 

1.

 

2.

 

KF is very deep and as old as Chinese civilisation; spend your entire lifetime polishing and perfecting the mind with KF.

[Michael Sternbach]

Two meanings which a Chinese speaker would discern from the context. 

 

Kung fu the martial art. 

 

And kung fu the cultivated skill aiming for, leading to, or accomplishing perfection, impeccability, at any task undertaken.  In this sense it always involves conscious and persistent effort whose outcome is effortlessness; often it implies great difficulties voluntarily self-imposed and successfully overcome.  "Excellent kung fu!" is the kind of praise, in this second sense, that may refer to a philosophical syllogism, a culinary creation, a painting, or someone's moral character, or even an apt joke.  Or any martial art besides kung fu for that matter.

 

Kung fu as "hard work" or, as you say, "self-imposed great difficulty" seems to be conceptually more in line with the hard Shaolin approach than with the soft Wudang approach. Maybe that's why the term is not used as commonly for the internal styles.

[9th]

You could call it the application of continuously progressive force in an increasingly skillful way, I suppose.  I prefer for multidimensional ideas to remain that way, if possible.  Especially if its hard to "wrap your head around".

 

Bodhidharma

 

Padmasambhava

[shanlung]

In the West, kungfu seemed only to apply to martial arts.

 

That is not the case.

 

If you do exquisite calligraphy be it Chinese , Arabic or even Western copperplate script, that will also be kungfu.

Or in artwork or carving of rhino horns or hornbills, even if rhinos or hornbills disagree.

 

 

 

 

One other aspect of life where kungfu is also used.

 

If a guy has 4 wives and 6 concubines and able to keep them all happy, he is said to have very good kungfu.

Or if he got 20 kids regardless of number of wives and concubines, his friends will pat him on his back with thumbs up for his kungfu.

 

Idiotic Taoist with only one son will not be regarded as having good kungfu

Edited January 6, 2016 by shanlung

[Taomeow]

Kung fu as "hard work" or, as you say, "self-imposed great difficulty" seems to be conceptually more in line with the hard Shaolin approach than with the soft Wudang approach. Maybe that's why the term is not used as commonly for the internal styles.

 

The soft arts are also mastered via hard work and self-imposed great difficulty, just of a different nature.  Some of it is physical -- e.g. masters of old used to do Single Whip under the table and stand like that for the longest time -- it does not leave cuts and bruises on the outside, but try a very low stance for a very long time and you'll be begging to be clubbed on the head instead!   Calligraphy masters suspended a string from the ceiling and tied their elbow to its end, to teach their forearm to be perfectly horizontal as they write.  (I don't have a string from the ceiling, but just minding this alignment is really hard work -- and the mind works harder not letting this arm tense up, stiffen, go numb.)  But then this calligraphy-trained hand can put down the brush and take the sword, and "effortlessness arrived at via great effort" will be wielding it.  

 

And a lot of difficulty is involved in mastering and controlling your own "everything," including things that are not your strong suit -- persistence, discipline, full awareness at all times, not getting dragged by your thoughts and ideas away from your intent, keeping the mind and the body together as one unit, and a lot more.  I remember being surprised and then shocked when I discovered that in taiji, the hardest thing to master is my own mind.  I was a very experienced meditator and my emotions were a "know thyself" bonanza, but taiji revealed all the weak spots, hard to notice until they are in the way of your progress, and then hard to overcome -- the easy ones are already gone, and your tasks in mastering your mind and your intent get progressively more difficult.  So, "soft" does not mean "flaccid," "fluffy," or "merciful to the practitioner."  Soft art, harsh taskmaker...

Edited January 6, 2016 by Taomeow

[centertime]

And a lot of difficulty is involved in mastering and controlling your own "everything," including things that are not your strong suit -- persistence, discipline, full awareness at all times, not getting dragged by your thoughts and ideas away from your intent, keeping the mind and the body together as one unit, and a lot more.  I remember being surprised and then shocked when I discovered that in taiji, the hardest thing to master is my own mind.  I was a very experienced meditator and my emotions were a "know thyself" bonanza, but taiji revealed all the weak spots, hard to notice until they are in the way of your progress, and then hard to overcome -- the easy ones are already gone, and your tasks in mastering your mind and your intent get progressively more difficult.  So, "soft" does not mean "flaccid," "fluffy," or "merciful to the practitioner."  Soft art, harsh taskmaker...

Hi Taomeow,

LIke what kind of weak spots are revealed?

[Taomeow]

Hi Taomeow,

LIke what kind of weak spots are revealed?

 

It's individual and unique to the person.  The important thing is, they are your weak spots, and strengthening yourself in this particular area may mean gaining or losing something, physical, mental, spiritual, or even financial.  I wasn't strong enough when I started, so for me, it was about gaining physical strength at that point.  A few guys coming from hard MA, on the other hand, were physically very strong but completely unable to yield, to get out of the competitive mindset, to "invest in loss" -- and in taiji it means your strength is "borrowed" or "hijacked" by the more skillful opponent and used against you.  So they had to work on something entirely else in the course of their gongfu -- kung fu -- acquisition.  

 

I started out, the way the teacher put it years ago, "too flexible," I thought it's about the body and was surprised that it was referred to as a problem -- no, it was about the mind.  Too flexible.  Too adaptable.  That's a difficult spot to work on because basically that's what is required of you in taiji -- but then you have to also know how to stand your ground, protect your space, and not adapt obligingly in each and every situation but make it necessary for the opponent to adapt to you.  In other words, you need will, you can't be a doormat in MA! -- but you need to be humble too!-- otherwise you're overboard with your confidence and physically it will translate into hardness and forcefulness and a skilled opponent will immediately use this against you. 

 

And so on...  There's a lot actually...  mercifully no one person has "all" the countless possible weak spots all at once.           

Edited January 6, 2016 by Taomeow

[Michael Sternbach]

The soft arts are also mastered via hard work and self-imposed great difficulty, just of a different nature.  Some of it is physical -- e.g. masters of old used to do Single Whip under the table and stand like that for the longest time -- it does not leave cuts and bruises on the outside, but try a very low stance for a very long time and you'll be begging to be clubbed on the head instead!   Calligraphy masters suspended a string from the ceiling and tied their elbow to its end, to teach their forearm to be perfectly horizontal as they write.  (I don't have a string from the ceiling, but just minding this alignment is really hard work -- and the mind works harder not letting this arm tense up, stiffen, go numb.)  But then this calligraphy-trained hand can put down the brush and take the sword, and "effortlessness arrived at via great effort" will be wielding it.  

 

And a lot of difficulty is involved in mastering and controlling your own "everything," including things that are not your strong suit -- persistence, discipline, full awareness at all times, not getting dragged by your thoughts and ideas away from your intent, keeping the mind and the body together as one unit, and a lot more.  I remember being surprised and then shocked when I discovered that in taiji, the hardest thing to master is my own mind.  I was a very experienced meditator and my emotions were a "know thyself" bonanza, but taiji revealed all the weak spots, hard to notice until they are in the way of your progress, and then hard to overcome -- the easy ones are already gone, and your tasks in mastering your mind and your intent get progressively more difficult.  So, "soft" does not mean "flaccid," "fluffy," or "merciful to the practitioner."  Soft art, harsh taskmaker...

 

I thought you might say something like that. And sure enough, mastering a soft style is as difficult as mastering a hard style - if not more so. Nevertheless, as I have been training years in two external styles of Karate as well as in the internal arts of Taiji and Aikido, I feel the unquestionable effort required by the two latter to be more... effortless.

[Taomeow]

I thought you might say something like that. And sure enough, mastering a soft style is as difficult as mastering a hard style - if not more so. Nevertheless, as I have been training years in two external styles of Karate as well as in the internal arts of Taiji and Aikido, I feel the unquestionable effort required by the two latter to be more... effortless.

 

I've encountered practitioners like that, accomplished hard MA folks who take on taiji.  From what I've seen (and pushed hands with), I believe it's extremely difficult to combine the two, more so than either one by itself, you do like a challenge, don't you?    

 

I also came from TKD, but not a whole lot of it.  The first thing I had to do was unlearn all of it .  It's much harder (not just physically but conceptually, first and foremost) to unlearn for someone who has invested a lot into acquiring it though. 

 

I do know a formidable taiji player who used to be a Western style wrestler.  Forty years of taiji later, all that remains from that earlier art is killer qinna that is distinctly flavored with wrestling holds, but the rest is pure taiji, very high level, excellent kung fu!    

[PLB]

I don't have the skill  to claim the matter can be decided by anything I have observed but I have had the good fortune of seeing the Chen and Yang side by side (and in front of me in sparring matches) and what strikes me is how the styles break down components in different ways. The differences are interesting.

I am pretty sure that there is no form above all others. The people I see getting the furthest are not concerned with forms for their own sake. All the teachers who have looked at my progress point to what is most lacking.

 

It is not a correction of something I am doing.

[shanlung]

I've encountered practitioners like that, accomplished hard MA folks who take on taiji.  From what I've seen (and pushed hands with), I believe it's extremely difficult to combine the two, more so than either one by itself, you do like a challenge, don't you?    

 

I also came from TKD, but not a whole lot of it.  The first thing I had to do was unlearn all of it .  It's much harder (not just physically but conceptually, first and foremost) to unlearn for someone who has invested a lot into acquiring it though. 

 

 

It is impossible to combine hard MA with taijichuan.  Especially if you are very good in hard MA.  The lingering influence from hard MA is even more difficult to discard , and must be discarded to get into the inner MA world.

 

It was only when I got to know Masters as against masters that it dwelled on me the fairy tales I had known of fajing were absolutely true.  That the heart-mind was not just in martial arts movies shot in HongKong.

 

I mentioned in my intro

http://thedaobums.com/topic/24575-taijiquan-styles/page-4

 

I was martial arts inclined. Started with Korean TKD and Goju ryu. And later with Shaolin Kungfun passed down indirectly by a Shaolin Monk Sek Koh Sum who came from China to be Abbot in Singapore Suan Lin Tse. That Abbot died before my interest in martial arts was kindled. One of his tudi was my friend. I got to where I could snap the top half with a chop or reversed punch  of a brick  placed on palm of a hand.  With Judo done in school and Western boxing done in my Army days, I had my share of real knocks and bumps. 

 

Sek Koh Sum  释高参  was a remarkable Master 

 

 

http://www.sekkohsam.tk/

 

Try to find the time to see more of that true shaolin fighting monk & abbot.

It might read like a fairy tale.  But then truth is always stranger than fiction.

 

I was 4 years or so in Shaolin, after 4 years or so in TKD and Goju.

 

I wrote often enough that I was throw about like a bloody rag doll left and right by Taiwan Masters who seemed to me like bag of bones.

 

This was what I looked like in those days of 1990-1994 in Taiwan.  Before I was send off to Guangzhou on that MRT system there.  So if you think I must be a cream puff to be tossed about, the 2 photos below might amuse you.

 

Extracted from

Tinkerbell Summertime2011 Wuling Nong Chang & leaving Taiwan

 

CH then showed me on his Ipad some old photos of us. I was delighted as those photos showed a much younger me. With head full of black hairs and my chest larger than my stomach.

 

Above taken in summer 1991. CH was in training for iron man contest after I worked with him how to swim. He was going to do a sea crossing of a bay. I was going to be his safety with my fins.

 

 

 

Yet another old photo of 1991 where we were at LungTung (Dragon Cove) doing rock climbing and traversing. Scary now when I think back of that. No safety harnesses and lines. Luckily we were all super fit and gods smiled on us all then.

 

 

I was 5 feet 11 inches or 1.8034 meters.  My weight then was 90 kg .

 

You also see why much as I love taijichuan, I love many other things too much to spend all my Sundays with the Master Liu of Hsingkongyuan.

 

Prior to meeting those Masters who convinced me in no uncertain terms that hard kungfu is a joke when faced with true inner kungfu of people who can ting jing, dong jing and fah jing.

 

Idiotic Taoist on peng li ji ann

[vonkrankenhaus]

To me, gongfu is "work".

 

The work we must do.

 

The work is to render the body and universe and all of creation to consciousness, to mind.

 

Same way "yoga".

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Michael Sternbach]

I've encountered practitioners like that, accomplished hard MA folks who take on taiji.  From what I've seen (and pushed hands with), I believe it's extremely difficult to combine the two, more so than either one by itself, you do like a challenge, don't you?    

 

I also came from TKD, but not a whole lot of it.  The first thing I had to do was unlearn all of it .  It's much harder (not just physically but conceptually, first and foremost) to unlearn for someone who has invested a lot into acquiring it though. 

 

I do know a formidable taiji player who used to be a Western style wrestler.  Forty years of taiji later, all that remains from that earlier art is killer qinna that is distinctly flavored with wrestling holds, but the rest is pure taiji, very high level, excellent kung fu!  

 

If you visit schools teaching external and internal arts, respectively, you will in fact notice great differences between them. However, if you stick around long enough, you will find more and more overlap. In fact, on the very advanced levels, their differences tend to blur. An accomplished master in any art will be expressing both 'hard' and 'soft' elements which have been in their art all along - but they are brought out in reversed order.