ayurvedic medicine pseudo science? What is your experience?

[centertime]

HI all,

 

Provocative title, is it not?  But that is what wikipedia says, "Ayurvedic medicine is considered pseudoscientic"

What is your experience with ayurveda?

 

What do you know about herbs?  For example what is Sukarna?

Can herbs heal?

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

[Orion]

Wikipedia's editor hierarchy is mostly dominated by people whose expertise is in material reductionism. If it's not something based in modern medicine or modern science, there will always invariably be a sub-topic with a brief disclaimer that modern science doesn't take it seriously, or that double-blind studies found it to not be real. I joined the editing process about 5 years ago but gave it up almost immediately when I realized that in order to get anything meaningful posted I would have to argue endlessly with western scientists.

 

Also, it's just a fact that because Wikipedia is always one of the first Google hits for anything that it's going to have major corporate and political interests vying for control of its content. On most of the pharmaceutical drug pages, you'll never see disclaimers saying that such and such thousands of people have died every year from taking such and such drug.

 

Wiki is a decent primary source reference material for summaries, which should then lead you to other research sources. Don't stop at Wiki. If you want to learn about Ayurveda then go to their sources.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Orion

[vonkrankenhaus]

No medicine or herb can heal people.

 

Healing is a function.

 

Some things can "help" healing functions.

 

By far, most do not.

 

Healing is not so important as not making sick.

 

Stop making sick, and "healing" is not necessary.

 

ALL medicine business today is psuedoscience and selling and misinformation.

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[RigdzinTrinley]

Maybe you read Dr. Svobodas books on the subject, if not I can recommend them as a great introduction to the subject (and that's as far as I went)

 

I live in India most of the year and aryuvedic medicine helped me on innumerable occasions

 

I have friends who did panchakama with excellent doctors and could treat disorders that where unfindable in Swizz hospital check ups (and that's why untreatable in the western system, my dharma brother was nonetheless in very bad shape)

[dwai]

HI all,

 

Provocative title, is it not? But that is what wikipedia says, "Ayurvedic medicine is considered pseudoscientic"

What is your experience with ayurveda?

 

What do you know about herbs? For example what is Sukarna?

Can herbs heal?

 

Thanks.

 

Ayurveda is a preventive system and relies on lifestyle changes (diet, sleeping habits, exercise, meditation etc). It has a very rich (6000+ year old) pharmacological database. This database has been mined for decades by western medicine. And then they turn around and malign the source.

 

Ayurveda was the first medical system to develop surgery, including reconstructive surgery.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sushruta_Samhita#Surgical_procedures_described

 

Surgical procedures described[edit]

Sushruta points out that haemorrhage can be arrested by apposition of the cut edges with stitches, application of styptic decoctions, by cauterisation with chemicals or heat. In ancient times, the practice of surgery, and hence its development, were closely associated with warfare. The vrana or injury, says Sushruta, involves the breakdown of body-components and may occur in one or more of the following tissues - skin, flesh, blood-vessels, sinews, bones, joints, internal organs of chest and abdomen and vital structures. Classically vrana, the wound, is considered to be the explosion of the underlying pathological structure. It is, in Sushruta's words, the sixth stage of a continuous process, which starts with sotha (inflammation). Sushruta says that in the first stage, the ulcer is unclean and hence called a dusta-vrana. By proper management it becomes a clean wound, a suddha-vrana. Then there is an attempt at healing and is called ruhyamana-vrana and when the ulcer is completely healed, it is a rudha-vrana. Sushruta has advocated the use of wine with incense of cannabis for anaesthesia.^[2] Although the use of henbane and of Sammohini and Sanjivani are reported at a later period, Sushruta was the pioneer of anaesthesia.

Sushruta describes eight types of surgical procedures: Excision (chedana) is a procedure whereby a part or whole of the limb is cut off from the parent. Incision (bhedana) is made to achieve effective drainage or exposure of underlying structures to let the content out. Scraping (lekhana) or scooping is carried out to remove a growth or flesh of an ulcer, tartar of teeth, etc. the veins, hydrocele and ascitic fluid in the abdomen are drained by puncturing with special instrument (vyadhana). The sinuses and cavities with foreign bodies are probed (esana) for establishing their size, site, number, shape, position, situation, etc. Sravana (blood-letting) is to be carried out in skin diseases, vidradhis, localised swelling, etc. in case of accidental injuries and in intentional incisions, the lips of the wound are apposed and united by stitching (svana).

To obtain proficiency and acquiring skill and speed in these different types of surgical manipulations, Sushruta had devised various experimental modules for trying each procedure. For example, incision and excision are to be practised on vegetables and leather bags filled with mud of different densities; scraping on hairy skin of animals; puncturing on the vein of dead animals and lotus stalks; probing on moth-eaten wood or bamboo; scarification on wooden planks smeared with beeswax, etc. On the subject of trauma, Sushruta speaks of six varieties of accidental injuries encompassing almost all parts of the body.

Sushruta also classifies the bones and their reaction to injuries, the varieties of dislocation of joints (sandhimukta) and fractures of the shaft (kanda-bhagna). He classifies and details the six types of dislocations and twelve varieties of fractures. He gives the principles of fracture treatment, viz., traction, manipulation, appositions and stabilisation. Sushruta has described the entire orthopaedic surgery, including some measures of rehabilitation, in his work.

As war was a major cause of injury, the name Salya-tantra for this branch of medical learning is derived from Salya, the arrow of the enemy, which in fights used to be lodged in the body of the soldiers. He emphasises that removal of foreign bodies is fraught with certain complications if the seat of the Salya be a marma (vital point).

Sushruta also discusses certain surgical conditions of ano-rectal region, he describes how to manage haemorrhoids and fistulae. Different types of incision to remove the fistulous tract - langalaka, ardhalangalaka, sarvabhadra, candraadha (curved) and kharjurapatraka (serrated) are described for adoption according to the type of fistula.

Sushruta was well aware of the urinary stones, their varieties; the anatomy of urinary bladder along with its relations is well recorded in the chapter on urinary stones. Varieties of stones, their signs and symptoms, the method of extraction and operative complication are given in detail. Apart from the above, surgery of intestinal obstruction (baddha-gudodara), perforated intestines (chidrodara), accidental injuries to abdomen (assaya-bhinna) in which protrusion of omentum occurs are also described along with their management.

A number of Sushruta's contributions to medicine are listed below:

Angina pectoris, mention and treatment of The concept of Hritshoola—literally heart pain—was known to Sushruta. Dwivedi & Dwivedi (2007) hold that: 'It embodies all the essential components of present day definition, i.e. site, nature, aggravating and relieving factors and referral. According to him angina is chest pain which is precordial, temporary, exertional, emotional, burning like and relieved by rest. He also linked this kind of pain to obesity (medoroga).'^[16]Circulatory system, description of The knowledge of circulation of vital fluids (such as blood (rakta dhatu) and lymph (rasa dhatu) through the body was known to Sushruta. He also seems to possess knowledge of the arteries, described as 'channels' by Dwivedi & Dwivedi (2007).^[16]Diabetes, mention and treatment of Sushruta identified diabetes and classified it as Madhumeha. He further identified it with obesity and sedentary lifestyle, advising exercises to help cure it.^[16]Hypertension, mention and treatment of Sushruta also explains hypertension in a manner which matches the modern symptoms of the disease.^[16]Leprosy, mention and treatment of Writing in the Encyclopedia Britannica 2008, Kearns & Nash (2008) state that the first mention of leprosy is described in Sushruta Samhita.^[18] The The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Human Paleopathology (1998) holds that: "The Sushruta Samhita from India describes the condition quite well and even offers therapeutic suggestions as early as about 600 B.C."^[19]Obesity, mention and treatment of Obesity was known to Sushruta who also related it with diabetes and heart disorder. He recommended physical work in order to help cure it and its side effects.^[16]Stones, mention and treatment of The earliest operation for curing stones is also given in the Sushruta Samhita. The operation involved exposure and going up through the floor of the bladder.^[20]

The samhita lays down the basic principles of plastic surgery by advocating a proper physiotherapy before the operation and describes various methods or different types of defects, viz.

1. release of the skin for covering small defects,
2. rotation of the flaps to make up for the partial loss and
3. pedicle flaps for covering complete loss of skin from an area.

He has mentioned various methods including sliding graft, rotation graft and pedicle graft.^[21] Reconstruction of a nose (rhinoplasty) which has been cut off, using a flap of skin from the cheek, has been described.^[22] Labioplasty too has received attention in the samahita.^[23]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charaka

 

 

 

 

 

The extant text has eight sthāna (sections), totalling 120 chapters. These sections are

1. Sūtra (General principles) - 30 chapters deal with healthy living, collection of drugs and their uses, remedies, diet and duties of a physician.
2. Nidāna (Pathology) - 8 chapters discuss the pathology of eight chief diseases.
3. Vimāna (Specific determination) 8 chapters contain pathology, various tools of diagnostics & medical studies and conduct.
4. Śārīra (Anatomy) - 8 chapters describe embryology & anatomy of a human body.
5. Indriya (Sensorial prognosis) - 12 chapters elaborate on diagnosis & prognosis of disease on the basis of senses.
6. Cikitsā (Therapeutics) - 30 chapters deal with special therapy.
7. Kalpa (Pharmaceutics and toxicology) - 12 chapters describe usage and preparation of medicine.
8. Siddhi (Success in treatment) - 12 chapters describe general principles of 'Panchkarma'.

Seventeen chapters of Cikitsā sthāna and complete Kalpa sthāna and Siddhi sthāna were added later by Dridhabala.^[11] The text starts with Sūtra sthāna which deals with fundamentals and basic principles of Ayurveda practice. Unique scientific contributions credited to the Charaka Saṃhitā include:

• a rational approach to the causation and cure of disease
• introduction of objective methods of clinical examination
• “Direct observation is the most remarkable feature of Ayurveda (आयुर्वेद), though at times it is mixed up with metaphysics. The Saṃhitā emphasizes that of all types of evidence the most dependable ones are those that are directly observed by the eyes. In Ayurveda successful medical treatment crucially depends on four factors: the physician, substances (drugs or diets), nurse and patient. The qualifications of physician are: clear grasp of the theoretical content of the science, a wide range of experience, practical skill and cleanliness; qualities of drugs or substances are: abundance, applicability, multiple use and richness in efficacy; qualifications of the nursing attendant are: knowledge of nursing techniques, practical skill, attachment for the patient and cleanliness; and the essential qualifications of the patients are: good memory, obedience to the instructions of the doctors, courage and ability to describe the symptoms.”^[12]

Edited January 20, 2016 by dwai

[futuredaze]

Pseudo means "not genuine."

 

The word science shares similar etymology to the word "scissors" - it cuts the whole into small pieces.  I looked up the etymology on etymonline.com --

 

 

 

• science (n.)
• mid-14c., "what is known, knowledge (of something) acquired by study; information;" also "assurance of knowledge, certitude, certainty," from Old French science "knowledge, learning, application; corpus of human knowledge" (12c.), from Latin scientia "knowledge, a knowing; expertness," from sciens (genitive scientis) "intelligent, skilled," present participle of scire "to know," probably originally "to separate one thing from another, to distinguish," related to scindere "to cut, divide," from PIE root *skei- "to cut, to split" (cognates: Greek skhizein "to split, rend, cleave," Gothic skaidan, Old English sceadan "to divide, separate;" see shed (v.)).

 

Now, any system that looks at theory, whether that is CTM or Ayurveda, or even Western psychological theories on personality, it seems that they can be called "pseudoscientific" because it attempts to assemble the pieces into a systemic whole.  Western psychology might not be called "pseudoscientific", and it often incorporates scientific findings, especially now that neuroscience has taken off, but IMO a lot of theoretical stuff that references scientific findings might as well be called pseudoscience.  Science is good at what it does, but without a philosophical and/or psychological framework to make sense of it and apply it, it is pretty much just dead information.  From the point of view of a philosopher, science taken to its extreme might be called "pseudo-living" because living is always subjective, and science always aims at being objective.

Edited January 22, 2016 by futuredaze

[Mudfoot]

Neither ayurveda nor TCM are pseudoscience. But if a practitioner try to explain one of these systems using terms from natural science without being able to back that up with relevant testresults, than that practitioner is guilty of pseudoscience. So, Qi or prana should not be translated as "energy" without specifying which sort of energy you are refering to. To confuse things, the ICF classification system uses the term "energy" in a way that would anger the protectors of Wikipedia.

Pseudoscience is often confused with using another paradigm than Western natural science, especially by proponents of the later one.

 

Some belive they hold the only truth.

[Mudfoot]

And of cause, a treatment can be scientifically proven beyond any doubt to affect a specific system in your body, and at the same time having scientifically proven side effects and poor clinical efficiency.

[Aeran]

I can't speak for the theory behind it, or Ayurvedic medicine as a whole, but I've taken Ayurvedic herbal treatments from two different sources and been amazed by their effectiveness both times. Of course that's only anecdotal - I suspect the best way to find out would be to explore the field yourself.

 

On a side note, I'd take anything on wikipedia about any kind of alternative, spiritual or metaphysical practice (so basically everything discussed on this board) with a grain of salt, as the contributing/editing team on wikipedia have a well known bias against anything which doesn't fit into the current Western, reductionist materialism scientific canon.