Buddhism and the subtle energy body

[ilumairen]

Same holds true for "mind-enhancing drugs" as well.

 

Yes, and not just mind enhancing drugs. The meds administered to myself during an operation this summer seriously threw everything out of whack for me.

[Orion]

There was a Tibetan Lama that gave a weekend teaching here in Santa Fe back in the early 90's, who worked in a psychiatric hospital in London. During the weekend, he was asked as to why he didn't teach meditation to the patients. His response was that meditation in almost any form could have negative effects if a person was not mentally balanced.

 

Ken Wilbur stated similar concerns in an interview in East West Journal back in the 80's. He was responding to the idea that meditation can cure psychological problems. He adamantly stated that psychological problems can be worsened due to the fact that a weak sense of self/ego when undermined by meditation can have serious consequences.

 

Makes me wonder what's going to happen to all these children who are being drugged in the education system. I've met many of the early patients of ritalin and the ones with enough self-awareness can tell you that the drugs stunted key phases of development which are now severely hindering their adult lives.

 

In another thread I just posted to we were helping a guy to see that he needs to take action in life and be less reliant on his parents now that he's over 25. I'm wondering what drugging children does to the development of their ego, and in turn how that affects their ability to be a force in the world, among other things.

[ralis]

Makes me wonder what's going to happen to all these children who are being drugged in the education system. I've met many of the early patients of ritalin and the ones with enough self-awareness can tell you that the drugs stunted key phases of development which are now severely hindering their adult lives.

 

In another thread I just posted to we were helping a guy to see that he needs to take action in life and be less reliant on his parents now that he's over 25. I'm wondering what drugging children does to the development of their ego, and in turn how that affects their ability to be a force in the world, among other things.

 

Thom Hartmann has written a number of books on this subject and are well worth the read.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Edison-Gene-ADHD-Hunter-Child-ebook/dp/B004GEAWOK/ref=la_B000AQ449C_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1452361827&sr=1-6

[3bob]

dropping back in: nothing wrong with a healthy ego that serves it purpose and realizes it limits, in fact I'd say that is (obviously) an important factor in all of this mystic stuff...

[Michael Sternbach]

There was a Tibetan Lama that gave a weekend teaching here in Santa Fe back in the early 90's, who worked in a psychiatric hospital in London. During the weekend, he was asked as to why he didn't teach meditation to the patients. His response was that meditation in almost any form could have negative effects if a person was not mentally balanced.

 

Ken Wilbur stated similar concerns in an interview in East West Journal back in the 80's. He was responding to the idea that meditation can cure psychological problems. He adamantly stated that psychological problems can be worsened due to the fact that a weak sense of self/ego when undermined by meditation can have serious consequences.

 

Meditation can have such an effect, but it can also help an unbalanced mind to settle. Much depends on the kind of meditation, and other factors.

[Tibetan_Ice]

Here is an example of people in a forum who can at least stay on topic.

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=19713&p=285724&hilit=tsa+lung#p285724

[Tibetan_Ice]

From The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying

SOGYAL RINPOCHE

 

"In short," writes Kalu Rinpoche, "it is from mind, which embodies the five elemental qualities, that the physical body develops. The physical body itself is imbued with these qualities, and it is because of this mind/body complex that we perceive the outside world—which in turn is composed of the five elemental qualities of earth, water, fire, wind and space."

 

The Tantric Buddhist tradition of Tibet offers an explanation of the body that is quite different from the one most of us are used to. This is of a psycho-physical system, which consists of a dynamic network of subtle channels, "winds" or inner air, and essences. These are called, respectively: nadi, prana, and bindu in Sanskrit; and tsa, lung, and tiklé in Tibetan. We are familiar with something similar in the meridians and ch'i energy of Chinese medicine and acupuncture.

 

The human body is compared by the masters to a city, the channels to its roads, the winds to a horse, and the mind to a rider. There are 72,000 subtle channels in the body, but three principal ones: the central channel, running parallel to the spine, and the right and left channels, which run either side of it. The right and left channels coil around the central one at a number of points to form a series of "knots." Along the central channel are situated a number of "channel wheels," the chakras or energy-centers, from which channels branch off like the ribs of an umbrella.

 

Through these channels flow the winds, or inner air. There are five root and five branch winds. Each of the root winds supports an element and is responsible for a function of the human body. The branch winds enable the senses to operate. The winds that flow through all the channels except the central one are said to be impure and activate negative, dualistic

thought patterns; the winds in the central channel are called "wisdom winds."

 

The "essences" are contained within the channels. There are red and white essences. The principal seat of the white essence is the crown of the head, and of the red essence at the navel.

 

In advanced yoga practice, this system is visualized very precisely by a yogin. By causing the winds to enter and dis- solve in the central channel through the force of meditation, a practitioner can have a direct realization of the luminosity or "Clear Light" of the nature of mind. This is made possible by the fact that the consciousness is mounted on the wind. So by directing his or her mind to any particular point in the body, a practitioner can bring the winds there. In this way the yogin is imitating what happens at death: when the knots in the channels are released, the winds flow into the central channel, and enlightenment is momentarily experienced.

 

So, you should be looking for tsa, lung and tigles, or winds and wheels...

[doc benway]

This level seems to be rarely discussed in Tibetan Buddhism (or any Buddhism for that matter), but it is the level I'm interested in, and why I tend to pursue Hindu Yoga approaches instead.

 

Is Dzogchen considered to be superior perhaps, a more direct path or so?

Another question I have along the same lines, where does the Tibetan Buddhist concept of ajna as the end point fit in, again it's never mentioned in dzogchen discussion, or any Buddhist discussion I've come across.

 

 

The Bönpos emphasize working with the subtle energies in dzogchen (and tantric) practice. 

The 9 Breathings of Purification, Tsa Lung, and Trul Khor are a core part of the method.

 

Here is an upcoming online course on the subject I would highly recommend.

Here is a

Alternatively, there are lots of free resources available here and a great book on the subject.

 

 

[liminal_luke]

I tried tonglen last night for the first time in years following the instructions of Pema Chodren. It helped me feel better about something that had been bothering me, and I was able to take constructive action today. Think I will add this to the things I do.

Edited January 11, 2016 by liminal_luke

[Bindi]

There are plenty of books about Tibetan channels, drops, winds, lung, practices and "psychic anatomy".

 

Here are some

 

http://www.amazon.com.au/The-Bliss-Inner-Fire-Practice-ebook/dp/B003XF1LH0

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Six-Yogas-Naropa-Inspirations/dp/1559392347

 

http://www.amazon.com/Heart-Drops-Of-Dharmakaya-Tradition/dp/1559391723

 

http://www.amazon.com/Clear-Light-Bliss-Mahamudra-Vajrayana/dp/0948006218

 

http://www.amazon.com/Wonders-Natural-Mind-Dzogchen-Tradition/dp/1559391421

 

 

Pretty much all of them say that the central channel terminates at the brow.

The brow is also known as the best place to separate mind and the clear light.

Have you come across any further information apart from what you mention here about the actual result of the central channel terminating at the brow instead of the crown?

[Tibetan_Ice]

Have you come across any further information apart from what you mention here about the actual result of the central channel terminating at the brow instead of the crown?

Hi Bindi,

Here is another excerpt from a Vajtayana text which outlines the psychic architecture of wheels, prana, etc.

 

It is from "Secret of the Vajra World":

 

http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Vajra-World-Tantric-Buddhism/dp/157062917X

 

 

The idea of chakras may be explained approximately as follows. Human beings typically enter into various states of awareness and, although we are not usually aware of it, these states are associated with different regions of our body. For example, when we are overcome with very strong love, tenderness, or yearning, we experience particularly intense energy in the area of our heart. When we speak, our awareness is focused in our throats. When we are preoccupied with thinking, our energy moves to our head. Thus, we may refer to people who are very conceptual as being “mental” or “out of touch with their bodies.” When we are hungry and contemplating a tasty meal, it is our belly that is thinking; and at the moment of orgasm, our awareness may be particularly oriented to our genital area. Our usual awareness of these centers is samsaric—that is, it is filtered through the interpretive and filtering system of ego. However, in the Vajrayana teaching, as we have seen, samsara is just a “cover” for nirvana. In fact, just beneath the samsaric overlay, each of these areas embodies a vast domain of selfless awareness, a reservoir of wisdom and compassion.

 

It is important to realize that the samsaric cover and the enlightened wisdom uncovered in the different chakras are not purely internal but have their counterparts in the external world. In this regard, Trungpa Rinpoche remarks that “the feeling of these centers should not be particularly centralized in the physical body as such, but it should be related to their essence in the universe, in the cosmos.”4 And he adds, “There is an external chakra principle in every situation.”5 The chakras, then, represent different dimensions of enlightened wisdom. While these aspects of enlightenment are found everywhere in the external and internal worlds, their existence in the body means that they are accessible to the practitioner in a uniquely immediate and direct way.

 

The chakras are linked by various nadis, or energy pathways, that run throughout the body.6 It is along these that consciousness travels, riding on the prana, the psychic energy or “winds.” Although Buddhist tantra identifies a multitude of nadis, three are of particular importance in the practice of inner yoga: (1) The central channel, known as the avadhuti, which is dark blue and runs parallel to the spinal column, just in front of it; (2) the lalana, white in color and located on the left side of the avadhuti, close to it but not touching, corresponding to the feminine principle; and (3) the rasana, which is red, an equal distance on the right side, corresponding to the masculine principle. The avadhuti is said to be about the thickness of a whipcord, while the rasana and lalana are said to be about the width of an arrowshaft. One text remarks that “all three channels are hollow, straight, clear, and transparent.”7 The lower end of the Avadhuti reaches down to a place below the navel, the exact location of which varies according to tradition. Its upper end travels over the top of the head and curves down to a point between the two eyebrows. The rasana and lalana, parallel to the avadhuti, run upward, also curving over the top of the head, and lead down to the right and left nostrils respectively. On their lower ends, these two nadis join the avadhuti below the navel center.

 

Six chakras are of importance in the practice of Buddhist tantric yoga. Four, in particular, are of special prominence, the nirmana-chakra, or “transformation chakra,” located at the navel; the dharma-chakra in the heart center; the sambhoga-chakra, or “enjoyment chakra,” in the throat; and the svabhavika-chakra, or “self-existent” chakra, in the head (sometimes also called the mahasukha-chakra, or “great bliss” chakra). The central nadi runs through these chakras and is linked with them through branch nadis extending to them like spokes from the center of a wheel. Each chakra has different numbers of these spokes and they face either up or down. In addition, also coming into play at various points in the yogas are two additional chakras, one in the “secret center” at the bottom of the avadhuti and the other at the crown of the head.

 

The nadi structure of the body is extensive. The lalana and rasana feed into the avadhuti, as mentioned, below the navel. The avadhuti is connected with the nadis radiating out from it at each of the chakras. And these radiating nadis connect outward some 72,000 nadis that run throughout the body, from the toes to the top of the head. It is important to realize that these nadis are not a theoretical or abstract structure. As the tantric yogin soon discovers, the nadis are real and really are there experientially as the channels or avenues through which our awareness flows in the practice of inner yoga. In ordinary samsaric functioning, the consciousness is scattered and dispersed. The goal of yogic practice is to collect its dispersed energies into the central channel, which corresponds to the experience of the innate buddha-mind within.

 

Trungpa Rinpoche:

 

Because of dualistic thinking, prana enters the lalana (Tib.: rkyang.ma) and rasana (ro-ma), the left and right channels. This divergence of energy in the illusory body corresponds to the mental activity that falsely distinguishes between subject and object and leads to karmically determined activity. Through yogic practice, the pranas can be brought into the central channel (avadhuti; dbu.ma), and therefore transformed into wisdomprana. Then the mind can recognize the fundamental nature, realizing all dharmas as unborn.8

 

The practice of the inner yogas, then, is a method toward the experience of the essence of mind itself. Once one has dissolved one’s blockages and obscurations through the practice of the yogas, the practitioner gains access to the wisdom mind. At that point, the inner visualization of the illusory body is dissolved and he or she can then rest in the unborn awareness itself. “Once the meditator is well established in the experience of the fundamental nature of mind, he can meditate on it directly, dissolving the nadi, prana, and bindu visualization.”9

 

 

I have thought about your question for a few days.

In Buddhism (tantra), they use the crown as a gateway for phowa, which is ejecting the mind out of the top of the head. They also use the crown for other purposes, because it is where the white drop is stored.

 

It could be that the fact that Tantra in Buddhism says that the central channel terminates at the brows is just a Buddhist convention which does not influence the functionality.

 

For example, in Shamar Rinpoche's seminar, he taught to visualize the breath coming in through the nose, going up and over the top of the brain but under the skull, and then down the center of the head and neck. So, it is kind of following the idea that the path through the crown is a curve.

 

And then many Buddhist books say that the central channel actually starts just below the navel, not at the root. So, the Hindu chakra system and the Buddhist system are somewhat different.

 

One does wonder, though, what significance this difference of termination point has. One possible case might be that the Kati channel from the heart to the eyes terminates at the eyes and perhaps (I think I read somewhere) that by gazing upwards towards the brow, you connect the Kati to the central channel.

 

If I find anything else out or can remember anything else I will let you know.

[rex]

Have you come across any further information apart from what you mention here about the actual result of the central channel terminating at the brow instead of the crown?

If I may stick my nose in. The central channel does not terminate at the brow, it's more down to the function of a particular practice. In phowa the central channel goes to the crown.

 

 

Edit: changed 'goes beyond the crown' to 'goes to the crown' in the last sentence.

Edited January 11, 2016 by rex

[Bindi]

You asked
 

Could you expand on this?  

 
referring to this post:
 

I cannot help but find it interesting that Tibetan Buddhism reverses the order of the last 2 chakras. It completely changes the whole focus of certain spiritual practices, and makes me think of Ramana saying that releasing kundalini to go straight up through the crown is useless.

 
Ramana said:
 

The Yogis attach the highest importance to sending the Kundalini up to the Sahasrara, the brain centre or the thousand petalled lotus…
…If one concentrates on the Sahasrara there is no doubt that the ecstasy of Samadhi ensues.

The Vasanas, that is the latent mental tendencies, are not however destroyed. The yogi is therefore bound to wake up from the Samadhi because release from bondage has not yet been accomplished. He must still try to eradicate the Vasanas inherent in him so that they cease to disturb the peace of his Samadhi. So he passes down from the Sahasrara to the Heart through what is called the Jivanadi, which is only a continuation of the Sushumna. The Sushumna is thus a curve. It starts from the lowest Chakra, rises through the spinal cord to the brain and from there bends down and ends in the Heart. When the yogi has reached the Heart, the Samadhi becomes permanent. Thus we see that the Heart is the final centre.
 
http://www.hinduism.co.za/kundalin.htm

I largely agree with Ramana except that I believe that the central channel passes from the crown chakra to ajna and on to the forehead, not the heart.

 

In thinking this, my concern is to clear and balance the channels before kundalini is fully released, so that when it does ascend it can follow the cleared way to the forehead, as opposed to  straight up through the crown. At least this is the theory, I have yet to see if the theory plays out in practice.

[doc benway]

I think it's important to recognize that any system of defining and labeling the energetic body is simply a convention created by human thought.

There are many different systems - which is correct?

All and none...

 

No need to get hung up on energetic anatomy, that is a distraction and a dead end.

Much better to start with what you feel and go from there.

If this is about kundalini - that is the frame of reference you should focus on.

Kundalini is not something to play with without expert guidance, IMO.

[Bindi]

I think it's important to recognize that any system of defining and labeling the energetic body is simply a convention created by human thought.

There are many different systems - which is correct?

All and none...

 

No need to get hung up on energetic anatomy, that is a distraction and a dead end.

Much better to start with what you feel and go from there.

If this is about kundalini - that is the frame of reference you should focus on.

Kundalini is not something to play with without expert guidance, IMO.

In my particular quote from Ramana he says that The Vasanas (the latent mental tendencies) need to be destroyed as opposed to concentrating on kundalini, Ramana is decidedly against working directly with kundalini, and I stated very clearly that I agreed with him, so I'm not sure why you counsel me to not play with kundalini, which I am already convinced of. I wouldn't play with kundalini even with expert guidance, let alone without.

 

When you say "start with what you feel and go from there", do you have something like working on destroying the Vasana's in mind, or something else?

 

As far as the anatomy of the subtle body being a distraction and a dead end goes, I agree that this may be a distraction at the start of the spiritual journey, but in my experience at a certain point knowledge of the subtle body may be not a distraction but a way forward. A certain level of knowledge though even when starting out such as understanding Ramana’s admonition to not focus on kundalini but on the Vasana’s can direct an entire spiritual path in a positive direction.

[doc benway]

You asked

 

 

referring to this post:

 

 

Ramana said:

 

 

I largely agree with Ramana except that I believe that the central channel passes from the crown chakra to ajna and on to the forehead, not the heart.

 

In thinking this, my concern is to clear and balance the channels before kundalini is fully released, so that when it does ascend it can follow the cleared way to the forehead, as opposed to  straight up through the crown. At least this is the theory, I have yet to see if the theory plays out in practice.

 

 

In my particular quote from Ramana he says that The Vasanas (the latent mental tendencies) need to be destroyed as opposed to concentrating on kundalini, Ramana is decidedly against working directly with kundalini, and I stated very clearly that I agreed with him, so I'm not sure why you counsel me to not play with kundalini, which I am already convinced of. I wouldn't play with kundalini even with expert guidance, let alone without.

Because of the highlighted passage above. If I misinterpreted you, my apologies and it's good to hear you are respectful of the kundalini practice. Too many folks have been harmed by it. 

 

 

When you say "start with what you feel and go from there", do you have something like working on destroying the Vasana's in mind, or something else?

What I think I'm trying to say is that we have a tendency to superimpose a discrete mental construct on a somewhat amorphous, ever-changing reality. If we are too focused on the overlay, we naturally direct our experience to fit an expectation. This is limiting and misleading in terms of experiential possibilities. I think it is valuable to have an open mind and heart and to approach experiential practices with as few expectations as possible. After the fact, we can reflect and apply intellectual analysis and conceptual models to the experience. If we focus more on this after the experience, it is less likely to influence the experience. 

 

 

As far as the anatomy of the subtle body being a distraction and a dead end goes, I agree that this may be a distraction at the start of the spiritual journey, but in my experience at a certain point knowledge of the subtle body may be not a distraction but a way forward.

No question about that. The entire purpose of creating a mental image of the "subtle body" is so that it can support our practice. There is a fine line between support and distraction sometimes. I guess I'm putting that caution out there, especially in the context of a discussion of whether the central channel terminates at the crown or the 3rd eye. The correct answer is both and neither. It really doesn't matter because it is what we want it to be when and where we need it to be. The anatomy should be a description of our experience but not define that experience. At least in my admittedly limited experience and knowledge, that is the case.

 

 

A certain level of knowledge though even when starting out such as understanding Ramana’s admonition to not focus on kundalini but on the Vasana’s can direct an entire spiritual path in a positive direction.

For sure - what really counts in our practice is how our lives and the lives of those around us can be improved by this work. Focusing on our personal (and collective) problems and opportunities is a way to see the true potential in energy practices and to keep them fresh. Focusing too much on our concept and image of what energy is, where it is flowing, and so forth has value but without the personal piece (working with the vasanas, kleshas, etc), I think we are missing a big opportunity.

[Tibetan_Ice]

I think it's important to recognize that any system of defining and labeling the energetic body is simply a convention created by human thought.

There are many different systems - which is correct?

All and none...

 

No need to get hung up on energetic anatomy, that is a distraction and a dead end.

Much better to start with what you feel and go from there.

If this is about kundalini - that is the frame of reference you should focus on.

Kundalini is not something to play with without expert guidance, IMO.

 

You seem to think that chakras and psychic architecture are some kind of mental creation that don't really exist.

 

The fact that there are different colors, functions for chakras between the disciplines in no way denies their existence.

 

Chakras are not a mental invention that one overlays or superimposes upon the self. They really do exist. If you were accomplished, you could seem them.

 

There are common charactistics with all the psychic architectures: They all have a sushumna, central channel, advadhuti which is the main channel. They all have the right and left channels, ida and pingala.  All chakras can be influenced mentally.

 

The reason there are variations with how people describe chakras is because chakras interpentrate the various bodies, the physical, the physical-etheric, the psychical/astral, the psychical/astral etheric, the noetic, the noetic-etheric.  Depending on which body you examine, the chakra, nadis, channels appear differently.

 

Since when is knowing less about something better?  That is a defeatist attitude. There are great benefits to learning about psychic architecture. The more you learn and understand, the more knowledge you gain and can apply. There is a common ground between all the disciplines concerning chakras/channels/types of chi/prana/ethers. 

 

Energetic anatomy is not a distraction and a dead end. You have to know some energetic anatomy to perform tummo, phowa, and many of the other practices (Buddhist and Hindu, New Age etc).

 

Even in Trecko, you have to know about the brow chakra, the heart chakra, visualizing the blue HUM (depending on which body of teachings), the drops, etc. 

 

 I little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but with a whole lot of knowledge you become a master, a PHD, an adept.  Isn't that what it's all about?  The highest level of accomplishment in Buddhism is refered to as "primordial wisdom". Not "primordial ignorance". Knowledge and practice. An invaluable combination.

 

When you find someone climbing the ladder by learning, acquiring knowledge, examining phenomenon and trying to understand, a good thing to do is encourage them.  Perhaps they will attain higher level than you.

[doc benway]

You seem to think that chakras and psychic architecture are some kind of mental creation that don't really exist.

 

The fact that there are different colors, functions for chakras between the disciplines in no way denies their existence.

 

Chakras are not a mental invention that one overlays or superimposes upon the self. They really do exist. If you were accomplished, you could seem them.

I think a lot of different things depending on when and where you catch me and the context.

 

The primordial wisdom you refer to later in your post is the realization of emptiness.

Believing that "they really do exist" is inconsistent with the empty nature of things that is at the heart of the Buddhist view.

 

Our conceptualization, whatever the flavor or topic, is a label or an image, not the reality.

That applies to chakras, channels, deities, etc... 

And, for the record, I'm absolutely convinced of the power of working with the channels and chakras, I do it in waking and dream practices daily.

 

 

There are common charactistics with all the psychic architectures: They all have a sushumna, central channel, advadhuti which is the main channel. They all have the right and left channels, ida and pingala.  All chakras can be influenced mentally.

 

The reason there are variations with how people describe chakras is because chakras interpentrate the various bodies, the physical, the physical-etheric, the psychical/astral, the psychical/astral etheric, the noetic, the noetic-etheric.  Depending on which body you examine, the chakra, nadis, channels appear differently.

You can attach yourself as deeply to any model as you like...

they are all conceptual constructs.

And they are valuable as long as they support our practice.

 

 

 

Since when is knowing less about something better?  That is a defeatist attitude.

When the information is inaccurate or misleading or causing difficulties in your practice.

Not intended as defeatist but more experiential.

Sometimes the intellect can get in the way.

 

 

 

There are great benefits to learning about psychic architecture. The more you learn and understand, the more knowledge you gain and can apply. There is a common ground between all the disciplines concerning chakras/channels/types of chi/prana/ethers. 

I agree...

And even greater benefits to also do the practices skillfully, with expert guidance, along with learning about them. 

 

 

Energetic anatomy is not a distraction and a dead end. You have to know some energetic anatomy to perform tummo, phowa, and many of the other practices (Buddhist and Hindu, New Age etc).

Energetic anatomy is not a distraction and a dead end but getting hung up on it is... which is what I said.

Bindi seemed to be getting blocked by the relationship of the central channel, heart chakra, 3rd eye, and crown.

When the words get you tied up, I think it's good to let the words go and start with what you feel.

That is my message.

 

 

Even in Trecko, you have to know about the brow chakra, the heart chakra, visualizing the blue HUM (depending on which body of teachings), the drops, etc. 

No you don't. The concepts are useful if they help you to connect with the natural state. If you can do it without the concepts, that is even better... more direct.

 

 

 I little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but with a whole lot of knowledge you become a master, a PHD, an adept.  Isn't that what it's all about? 

No, it doesn't work that way in experiential practices.

There are many people with extraordinary knowledge of taijiquan who can't push their way out of a wet paper bag.

They have information but not skill, therefore no mastery of taijiquan.

 

Many scholars have never experienced the natural state. They can't be said to have mastered anything but information!

 

Since you mentioned dzogchen earlier, the word knowledge is often used to translate rigpa (eg Jean Luc Achard) but it's important to distinguish information from realization, both of which can be implied by the word knowledge. Having a "whole lot of knowledge" is useful when information is the currency. However, in the natural state information is a worthless currency.

 

 

The highest level of accomplishment in Buddhism is refered to as "primordial wisdom". Not "primordial ignorance". Knowledge and practice. An invaluable combination.

Yes, primordial wisdom which is the realization of emptiness.

It is not the accumulation of knowledge, it is more related to letting go of all knowledge and all concepts.

And much ignorance is based on the accumulation and utilization of information in an unskilful fashion.

All that said, I agree that knowledge and practice are both valuable on the path, for sure. 

 

 

When you find someone climbing the ladder by learning, acquiring knowledge, examining phenomenon and trying to understand, a good thing to do is encourage them.  Perhaps they will attain higher level than you.

I agree!

I was trying to do just that and I apologize if I came off as critical.

[Tibetan_Ice]

I think a lot of different things depending on when and where you catch me and the context.

 

The primordial wisdom you refer to later in your post is the realization of emptiness.

Believing that "they really do exist" is inconsistent with the empty nature of things that is at the heart of the Buddhist view.

 

...

 

Again with the nihilism? Emptiness and appearances cannot be separated.

[Apech]

If I might interject here - it isn't very Buddhist to talk about things really existing and yet at the same time it is a mistake to think this applies more to subtle things than physical objects.  Since all phenomena are empty of self then everything is illusory including the internet and this message board.  But of course in a relative sense - a conventional sense these things do exist - and I'm not saying that from the 'two truths' perspective but more practical common sense.  The thing about chakras and the subtle body is that while I would say they exist as much as our physical bodies do - they are responsive, fluid, communicative energy structures.  So they respond more easily to the observer and any concepts held by the observer.  Hence we have a number of similar but slightly different systems for describing the structure of the subtle body, the number and position of chakras or other foci within it.

 

And as a side note - we think we know what our physical bodies are because familiarity breeds contempt but actually they also are a fascinating mystery.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Apech

[Bindi]

I think a lot of different things depending on when and where you catch me and the context.

 

The primordial wisdom you refer to later in your post is the realization of emptiness.

Believing that "they really do exist" is inconsistent with the empty nature of things that is at the heart of the Buddhist view.

 

Our conceptualization, whatever the flavor or topic, is a label or an image, not the reality.

That applies to chakras, channels, deities, etc... 

And, for the record, I'm absolutely convinced of the power of working with the channels and chakras, I do it in waking and dream practices daily.

 

You can attach yourself as deeply to any model as you like...

they are all conceptual constructs.

And they are valuable as long as they support our practice.

 

 

 

When the information is inaccurate or misleading or causing difficulties in your practice.

Not intended as defeatist but more experiential.

Sometimes the intellect can get in the way.

 

 

 

I agree...

And even greater benefits to also do the practices skillfully, with expert guidance, along with learning about them. 

 

 

Energetic anatomy is not a distraction and a dead end but getting hung up on it is... which is what I said.

Bindi seemed to be getting blocked by the relationship of the central channel, heart chakra, 3rd eye, and crown.

When the words get you tied up, I think it's good to let the words go and start with what you feel.

That is my message.

 

I wouldn't say I am getting blocked by the relationship of the central channel, heart chakra, 3rd eye, and crown, just that i have a very specific order in mind, and i am interested in any and all information that addresses this order, and the difference that this order might make. I am not playing a mind game, I am examining information I have been given to test its validity, though I do believe this information explicitly, still I like to look around and compare what I believe with what other people describe. In this process, if something I believe has never been described by anyone on a legitimate spiritual path, then I would be inclined to keep examining this particular belief.

 

So far, everything else I have come across I have found can be validated quite easily according to Yoga knowledge of the subtle body, this particular issue of the order of the chakras is harder to validate though, and discussing it here I thought perhaps someone might have read a reference to it that they might share.

 

The only other reference apart from Tibetan Buddhism I have come across is Edgar Cayce, his readings identify the seventh chakra as ­the third-eye chakra, which he further identifies with the Pituitary Gland. Identifying the third eye with the pituitary gland also makes a big difference. He described the arrangement of the chakras as being in the shape of a shepherd’s crook. When he was asked about his order which didn’t concur with the typical Yoga order, he said that he did not care what others were saying, but he was giving the correct arrangement. 

 

This is just one person's information, I would still love to talk to a Tibetan Master about this issue, but where I am they are in short supply. In one sense I can just wait and see, but curiosity tends to be stronger in me than disinterest. 

 

 

 

No you don't. The concepts are useful if they help you to connect with the natural state. If you can do it without the concepts, that is even better... more direct.

 

 

No, it doesn't work that way in experiential practices.

There are many people with extraordinary knowledge of taijiquan who can't push their way out of a wet paper bag.

They have information but not skill, therefore no mastery of taijiquan.

 

Many scholars have never experienced the natural state. They can't be said to have mastered anything but information!

 

Since you mentioned dzogchen earlier, the word knowledge is often used to translate rigpa (eg Jean Luc Achard) but it's important to distinguish information from realization, both of which can be implied by the word knowledge. Having a "whole lot of knowledge" is useful when information is the currency. However, in the natural state information is a worthless currency.

 

 

Yes, primordial wisdom which is the realization of emptiness.

It is not the accumulation of knowledge, it is more related to letting go of all knowledge and all concepts.

And much ignorance is based on the accumulation and utilization of information in an unskilful fashion.

All that said, I agree that knowledge and practice are both valuable on the path, for sure. 

 

 

I agree!

I was trying to do just that and I apologize if I came off as critical.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Bindi

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

 

 

 

 

Tibetan_Ice, on 19 Jan 2016 - 12:59, said:

Even in Trecko, you have to know about the brow chakra, the heart chakra, visualizing the blue HUM (depending on which body of teachings), the drops, etc.

 

No you don't. The concepts are useful if they help you to connect with the natural state. If you can do it without the concepts, that is even better... more direct.

If you don't know about chakras, what would you understand this is all about?

 

From Heart Drops of Dharmakaya:

The third channel, the fine twisted thread, starts in the central channel at the level of the heart and then goes down to the base before rising again through the centre of the four wheels (navel, heart, throat and crown chakras) to pass over the outside of the brain to the left eye doorway. It supports all the visions of the natural clear lights that shine directly.

 

Finally the crystal tube travels from the heart to the eye; it supports the dissolving of all the visions into their nature.

Thoughts are generated when the unification at the heart level meets the winds from the channel from the lungs.

Four fires give equal heat

 

This refers to the four lamps—the lamp of water called Gyangzhag (rgyang zhags chu'i sgron ma); the lamp of the empty tigle {thig le stongpa 7 sgron ma); the lamp of pure emptiness (dbyings mam daggi sgron ma) and the lamp of self wisdom {shes rab rang byunggi sgron ma). These four lamps produce the visions of the mandalas and the forms of the divinities, and whatever vision comes they are clear. Whatever vision comes all of them are equally encompassed with wisdom and the ripening of the three kayas. Thus, as in the proverb, the great fire of existence makes all warm equally and produces fruits and leaves on the bushes. This is the important teaching for insight into the natural state.

 

. ? .

[Bindi]

If I might interject here - it isn't very Buddhist to talk about things really existing and yet at the same time it is a mistake to think this applies more to subtle things than physical objects.  Since all phenomena are empty of self then everything is illusory including the internet and this message board.  But of course in a relative sense - a conventional sense these things do exist - and I'm not saying that from the 'two truths' perspective but more practical common sense.  The thing about chakras and the subtle body is that while I would say they exist as much as our physical bodies do - they are responsive, fluid, communicative energy structures.  So they respond more easily to the observer and any concepts held by the observer.  Hence we have a number of similar but slightly different systems for describing the structure of the subtle body, the number and position of chakras or other foci within it.

 

And as a side note - we think we know what our physical bodies are because familiarity breeds contempt but actually they also are a fascinating mystery.

 

In terms of the confusion surrounding the structure of the subtle body, it is also the case that most people just pass on information that has been handed down to them in the first place, and in that sort of system certain issues get lost and others are embellished. Plus some people just like to make things up to sound knowledgable and advanced, and i am thinking here of all the extra chakras that new agers like to toss around, and then this stuff is quoted somewhere else as fact. No wonder there's so much confusion. 

Edited January 20, 2016 by Bindi

[Tibetan_Ice]

 

...

 

The only other reference apart from Tibetan Buddhism I have come across is Edgar Cayce, his readings identify the seventh chakra as ­the third-eye chakra, which he further identifies with the Pituitary Gland. Identifying the third eye with the pituitary gland also makes a big difference. He described the arrangement of the chakras as being in the shape of a shepherd’s crook. When he was asked about his order which didn’t concur with the typical Yoga order, he said that he did not care what others were saying, but he was giving the correct arrangement.

...

 

Yes, that is true!

 

[MooNiNite]

There are plenty of books about Tibetan channels, drops, winds, lung, practices and "psychic anatomy".

 

Here are some

 

http://www.amazon.com.au/The-Bliss-Inner-Fire-Practice-ebook/dp/B003XF1LH0

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Six-Yogas-Naropa-Inspirations/dp/1559392347

 

http://www.amazon.com/Heart-Drops-Of-Dharmakaya-Tradition/dp/1559391723

 

http://www.amazon.com/Clear-Light-Bliss-Mahamudra-Vajrayana/dp/0948006218

 

http://www.amazon.com/Wonders-Natural-Mind-Dzogchen-Tradition/dp/1559391421

 

 

Pretty much all of them say that the central channel terminates at the brow.

The brow is also known as the best place to separate mind and the clear light.

 

The third one looks interesting, did you like it?