Buddhism and the subtle energy body

[Bindi]

On a side note: dear bindi,

 

In the different vajrayana lineages, sadhanas etc. you will find different numbers of chakras, different ways of visualizing them etc.

 

Why?

 

They don't "really" solidly exist

 

Mind is the main thing and if you visualize in a certain way the impure winds (karmic winds=dualistic thought process) will start to move a certain way and give certain results

 

Clarity, non thought, bliss

 

In the lineage I'm thought in tsalung is seen as the "companion" to realize and stabilize the view

 

My guru also simply said if you are not ready and guided well you'll end up in the lemon factory (maybe you know how people on haldol etc. look? Like they constantly eat lemon...)

 

I put the lemon factory there, Rinpoche wouldn't know what that is

 

I write you all of that because you will find many different maps of the vajra body

 

Method is infinite

Wisdom is wisdom

I do know where you're coming from Rigdzin, and I thank you for your kind post. I do agree that yes there are many different maps of the subtle body (= vajra body?), but I would suggest that as Michael's post implies this confusion will hopefully be resolved through increased study of the Science of the subtle body. 

 

I am no scientist myself, but i do understand that certain energetic fields are generated by anatomical structures, and I do believe that these energy structures that have been known about and referred to in spiritual circles for millenia will be able to be measured with appropriate instrumentation by interested scientists. This in the spirit of increasing knowledge and clarity, and building on the work of generations of spiritual men and women.

 

A quick search of google scholar brought these results from the first page

 

Investigation into gender recognition based on body radiation

 

alil, S.Z.A. ; Razak Sch. of Eng. & Adv. Technol., Univ. Teknol. Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia ; Taib, M.N. ; Karim, M.Y.M.A. ; Abdullah, H.

 

Abstract

Recently, there has been increasing concern about scientific investigations of the endogenous electromagnetic fields generated by and contained in the human body. In this paper, we discuss an initial investigation of frequency characteristic of the human body radiation that based on chakra point radiation of the human body. A chakra is defined as focal points for the reception, absorption and transmission of radiation wave in the human body. Endogenous electromagnetic (EM) fields of human body were studied experimentally from 26 healthy human subjects. The body radiations were taken on seven points of chakra in the human body and were investigated through statistical analysis. Also, the classification of body radiation frequency in chakra on gender dependency was studied and we found that heart chakra is significant to differentiate between male and female.

 

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=5679414&url=http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=5679414

 

The comparison of human body Electromagnetic radiation between Down Syndrome and Non Down Syndrome person for brain, chakra and energy field stability score analysis.

 

Rosdi, M. ; Fac. of Electr. Eng., Univ. Teknol. MARA Malaysia, Shah Alam, Malaysia ; Sheikh Abd Kadir, R.S. ; Murat, Z.H. ; Kamaruzaman, N.

 

Abstract

This paper present a study on the comparison of human body Electromagnetic radiation of Down Syndrome and Non Down Syndrome persons. Frequency data were recorded using human body radiation detector from 15 persons from National Association of Down Syndrome Malaysia and 15 persons from Universiti Teknologi MARA, Shah Alam with age range between 6-28 years old. The body Electromagnetic radiation was analyzed based on three analyses which are brain analysis, chakra analysis and energy field stability score analysis. The data was analyzed using software by converting the frequency into color and categorized the human aura. From these findings, Brain Analysis indicated that Non Down Syndrome persons were slightly relax and creative by 93.33% as compared to Down Syndrome persons by 80%. For Chakra Analysis, Non Down Syndrome persons are better in communication, handling stress and their mind rather than person with Down Syndrome by 80%. For the Energy Field Stability Score Analysis, results demonstrated that 26.67% of Non Down Syndrome persons having a stable personality while 20% persons for Down Syndrome persons. Additionally, 80% of Down Syndrome persons have dynamic personalities while 73.33% for Non Down Syndrome persons. By completing this research, it can be concluded that the human body radiation detector can identify the human body Electromagnetic radiation or aura between Down Syndrome and Non Down Syndrome person.

 

...B. Results From Chakra Analysis. There are six points of Chakra categories involved in this

research which are Base Chakra (point 35), Sacral Chakra

(point 36), Solar Plexus Chakra (point 37), Heart Chakra

(point 38), Throat Chakra (point 39) and Third Eye Chakra

(point 40)...

For the full article see page 349 https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Nur_Huda_Mohd_Amin/publication/259079462_Stability_Study_of_PD_and_PI_Controllers_in_Multiple_Difference_Disturbances/links/00463529ea15559e06000000.pdf#page=360

I am not promoting the content of these articles as necessarily correct, but I am heartened by the attempt to explore the concrete nature of the subtle body.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Bindi

[seekingbuddha]

 

This picture reminds me of  the  darkness (on skin and otherwise)  that  we can  notice  around a person  who  is struggling with   drug addictions.  I am sure many in this forum can sense the same,  when they come across a random stranger, who is outwardly  bubbly, normal and social,  but has that darkness of addictions  visible  in their eyes.

 

I also remember seeing a video of  Adyashanti,  where he says that "Ego starts from the abdomen area".   Perhaps  there is  an inner organ in the abdomen area,  that stores the negative  feelings  (like EGO) ?  I wonder what  TCM has to say about  organs and what feelings  are stored  in each organ. I  have contemplated  the possibility  that  this  subtle energy body  is what is  referred to as  "the spirit"  in  Christianity.

Edited January 9, 2016 by seekingbuddha

[C T]

Mind mired in delusion is ego; transformed, turns into bodhicitta. Its not two separate drives. 

 

The real science is the transformational process which leads to seeing that they are not two. 

 

It seems very difficult for a western mind to grasp this simple fact. Nagarjuna already made it very clear: Bondage lies in thinking of one's needs above all else - freedom lies in considering the needs of others, over and above self. The source where this particular mode of conduct, of attitude, motivation and drive begins is the same source. This is where Buddhism, specifically Mahayana, differs from other paths - it gives the means to channel negative forces as fuel for inner transformation. As a result, even a person with immense blockages can use certain 'tools' to convert those same blockages into ambrosia, or as Jeff likes to call it, light. Buddhist masters say the greater the blockages, the more fuel for the transformational process. This is because potential is limitless, and also because of inherent buddha nature. This is also what enables the effervescent power of holistic self-healing. Fragmented ideas of things dissolve - the mind and body becomes whole again. 

[blue eyed snake]

Mind mired in delusion is ego; transformed, turns into bodhicitta. Its not two separate drives. 

 

The real science is the transformational process which leads to seeing that they are not two. 

 

thank you

[Apech]

With regard to science and the subtle body - I'm not sure I want lab coated technicians tinkering around with my subtle body - I am happy that subtle energies are beyond the reach of their radar.  Whoever said it is right - that the subtle body is more fluid and responsive to being observed and the intention of the observer.  In fact it's kind of half way between being totally fluid and being fixed.  So differing diagrams of the subtle body which reflect the intent and purpose of the practitioner/observer are all legitimate in their own way.

[Michael Sternbach]

Mind mired in delusion is ego; transformed, turns into bodhicitta. Its not two separate drives. 

 

The real science is the transformational process which leads to seeing that they are not two. 

 

It seems very difficult for a western mind to grasp this simple fact. Nagarjuna already made it very clear: Bondage lies in thinking of one's needs above all else - freedom lies in considering the needs of others, over and above self. The source where this particular mode of conduct, of attitude, motivation and drive begins is the same source. This is where Buddhism, specifically Mahayana, differs from other paths - it gives the means to channel negative forces as fuel for inner transformation. As a result, even a person with immense blockages can use certain 'tools' to convert those same blockages into ambrosia, or as Jeff likes to call it, light. Buddhist masters say the greater the blockages, the more fuel for the transformational process. This is because potential is limitless, and also because of inherent buddha nature. This is also what enables the effervescent power of holistic self-healing. Fragmented ideas of things dissolve - the mind and body becomes whole again. 

 

This transformation of vibrationally lower to corresponding higher states is exactly what Dr. Edward Bach explained in the 1930s, and what his method of using certain flower remedies to induce psychological healing and change (of which I am a practitioner) is based on.

 

This principle is also known in Hermetic internal alchemy, see i.e. the Kybalion.

 

Talking about Tibetan Buddhism again, it is further the foundation of the Tonglen meditation.

[Apech]

This transformation of vibrationally lower to corresponding higher states is exactly what Dr. Edward Bach explained in the 1930s, and what his method of using certain flower remedies to induce psychological healing and change (of which I am a practitioner) is based on.

 

This principle is also known in Hermetic internal alchemy, see i.e. the Kybalion.

 

Talking about Tibetan Buddhism again, it is further the foundation of the Tonglen meditation.

 

 

Michael,

 

Could you expand a bit on your last sentence about Tonglen.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Apech

[C T]

This transformation of vibrationally lower to corresponding higher states is exactly what Dr. Edward Bach explained in the 1930s, and what his method of using certain flower remedies to induce psychological healing and change (of which I am a practitioner) is based on.

 

This principle is also known in Hermetic internal alchemy, see i.e. the Kybalion.

 

Talking about Tibetan Buddhism again, it is further the foundation of the Tonglen meditation.

You are right, Tonglen would be one of the applied tools of transformation. Spot on. 

[Michael Sternbach]

Mind mired in delusion is ego; transformed, turns into bodhicitta. Its not two separate drives. 

 

The real science is the transformational process which leads to seeing that they are not two.

 

On another note, I was once confused by different astrological texts referring to the Sun as symbolizing variously the ego or the transpersonal self in a natal chart. Until a fellow astrologer reminded me of the Buddhist teaching that this mind is the 'Buddha mind'! This ultimately holds true but omits the process that fills the mind with the light from the transcendental dimensions and thus transforms one into the other.

[C T]

On another note, I was once confused by different astrological texts referring to the Sun as symbolizing variously the ego or the transpersonal self in a natal chart. Until a fellow astrologer reminded me of the Buddhist teaching that this mind is the 'Buddha mind'! This ultimately holds true but omits the process that fills the mind with the light from the transcendental dimensions and thus transforms one into the other.

This is basically what the Vajra masters try to tell everyone, and what serious Buddhist practitioners across all traditions try to encapsulate if they are anywhere near understanding this very direct notion. The Zen masters put it very simply when they say, "Sitting quietly and composed of mind, you are no different from any buddha". In Vajrayana they speak of non-distraction, which again is pointing to the same thing. Non-distraction means the ability to sustain the View of the vast expanse without falling out into dualistic perceptions. 

[Bindi]

With regard to science and the subtle body - I'm not sure I want lab coated technicians tinkering around with my subtle body - I am happy that subtle energies are beyond the reach of their radar.  Whoever said it is right - that the subtle body is more fluid and responsive to being observed and the intention of the observer.  In fact it's kind of half way between being totally fluid and being fixed.  So differing diagrams of the subtle body which reflect the intent and purpose of the practitioner/observer are all legitimate in their own way.

 

Fair enough you don't want scientists tinkering with your subtle body. Why do you think the subtle body is half way between fluid and fixed?

[Michael Sternbach]

I do know where you're coming from Rigdzin, and I thank you for your kind post. I do agree that yes there are many different maps of the subtle body (= vajra body?), but I would suggest that as Michael's post implies this confusion will hopefully be resolved through increased study of the Science of the subtle body. 

 

I am no scientist myself, but i do understand that certain energetic fields are generated by anatomical structures, and I do believe that these energy structures that have been known about and referred to in spiritual circles for millenia will be able to be measured with appropriate instrumentation by interested scientists. This in the spirit of increasing knowledge and clarity, and building on the work of generations of spiritual men and women.

 

As TCM shows, spread all over the body, there are in fact hundreds of "chakras" or subtle level gateways. In my view, the seeming divergences between the systems mostly boil down to variations in emphasis.

 

For instance, the Svaddisthana chakra (whose elemental attribution is water) coincides pretty much with the "lower dantian point" CV-5 (Shimen), although CV-6 (Qihai, "sea of life force") and CV-4 (Guanyuan) are certainly not far off regarding their location and function, so in this case, the chakra may be understood as an acupoint cluster.

 

Further, Muladhara corresponds with CV-1 (Huiyin), Manipura with CV-14 (Juque) and CV-15 (Jiuwei), Anahata with CV-17 (Shanzhong), Visshudha with CV-22 (Tiantu) and CV-23 (Lianquan), Ajna with the extra point Yintang, and Sahasrara with GV-20 (Baihui).

 

Some systems have various numbers of additional minor chakras that have their equivalents in the Chinese map of the subtle anatomy which is probably the most detailed one available.

[gatito]

On a side note: dear bindi,

 

In the different vajrayana lineages, sadhanas etc. you will find different numbers of chakras, different ways of visualizing them etc.

 

Why?

 

They don't "really" solidly exist

 

Mind is the main thing and if you visualize in a certain way the impure winds (karmic winds=dualistic thought process) will start to move a certain way and give certain results

 

Clarity, non thought, bliss

 

In the lineage I'm thought in tsalung is seen as the "companion" to realize and stabilize the view

 

My guru also simply said if you are not ready and guided well you'll end up in the lemon factory (maybe you know how people on haldol etc. look? Like they constantly eat lemon...)

 

I put the lemon factory there, Rinpoche wouldn't know what that is

 

I write you all of that because you will find many different maps of the vajra body

 

Method is infinite

Wisdom is wisdom

 

Well said!

 

Wisdom is in deed wisdom.

 

It's of vital importance to find someone competent not only to teach these things but also someone who is ready, willing and able to pick up the pieces if the student fucks-it-up.

 

In my book that means regular contact on a personal (in-real-life) basis.

 

It should be obvious that this person (from whom you choose to learn) should have cast-iron integrity, so make sure that you conduct a thorough background check...

 

Furthermore, if you try to learn from a book, how are you going to find competent help if it goes badly wrong? Therefore, find competent help before there's any possibility of it going awry (i.e. before you start messing around with things that you don't really understand).

[Michael Sternbach]

Michael,

 

Could you expand a bit on your last sentence about Tonglen.

 

It is my understanding that Tonglen absorbs a negative emotional state (found either in the practitioner themselves or in their environment) into the heart chakra and transforms it into a corresponding but higher form or, in a sense, "mirror image". The heart (in terms of subtle anatomy) seems to be a suitable place for this transformation due to its nature as a 'singularity' and mediator between the lower and the higher.

[Apech]

It is my understanding that Tonglen absorbs a negative emotional state (found either in the practitioner themselves or in their environment) into the heart chakra and transforms it into a corresponding but higher form or, in a sense, "mirror image". The heart (in terms of subtle anatomy) seems to be a suitable place for this transformation due to its nature as a 'singularity' and mediator between the lower and the higher.

 

 

Thanks.  That's an interesting and valid way of seeing it.  As a Tonglen practitioner I can also say it has a wonderful way of restoring balance in the subtle body.  I think most people who first hear of it think that the opposite might happen - that you might through taking in negative energy become a sort of rubbish dump - but the effect is not this.  For many years in the early days of the Mahayana Tonglen was the main and secret practice and thought sufficient on its own to lead to liberation.

[Brian]

I never cease to be amazed at the way ideas, concepts, teachings, etc., appear at just the right time. I had never (to my recollection) heard of Tonglen before. Without meaning to sound trite or condescending, this -- without reliance on visualization and blending away the breath aspect -- has been one of my cornerstones for longer than I can remember.

 

I think I've practiced Mahayana before; I continue to find evidence of it.

 

EDIT: As an FYI, I spent most of the time between Apech's post and mine digging through the Internet for info on Tonglen...

Edited January 9, 2016 by Brian

[ralis]

I never cease to be amazed at the way ideas, concepts, teachings, etc., appear at just the right time. I had never (to my recollection) heard of Tonglen before. Without meaning to sound trite or condescending, this -- without reliance on visualization and blending away the breath aspect -- has been one of my cornerstones for longer than I can remember.

 

I think I've practiced Mahayana before; I continue to find evidence of it.

 

EDIT: As an FYI, I spent most of the time between Apech's post and mine digging through the Internet for info on Tonglen...

 

Tonglen can be risky for anyone with psychological problems. Some may downplay that aspect, but there are persons that should not practice certain techniques.

[Brian]

 

Tonglen can be risky for anyone with psychological problems. Some may downplay that aspect, but there are persons that should not practice certain techniques.

I can definitely see how that would be a very real concern. Thank you.

[Apech]

This book includes Tonglen as well as other aspects of mind training as it is known in Buddhism.  Its very good.  the author died last year unfortunately.

 

I think ralis is right to point out that care is needed.  But I can say I have found it very helpful when integrated in with my other practices.

[ralis]

I can definitely see how that would be a very real concern. Thank you.

 

There was a Tibetan Lama that gave a weekend teaching here in Santa Fe back in the early 90's, who worked in a psychiatric hospital in London. During the weekend, he was asked as to why he didn't teach meditation to the patients. His response was that meditation in almost any form could have negative effects if a person was not mentally balanced.

 

Ken Wilbur stated similar concerns in an interview in East West Journal back in the 80's. He was responding to the idea that meditation can cure psychological problems. He adamantly stated that psychological problems can be worsened due to the fact that a weak sense of self/ego when undermined by meditation can have serious consequences.

[ilumairen]

There was a Tibetan Lama that gave a weekend teaching here in Santa Fe back in the early 90's, who worked in a psychiatric hospital in London. During the weekend, he was asked as to why he didn't teach meditation to the patients. His response was that meditation in almost any form could have negative effects if a person was not mentally balanced.

 

Ken Wilbur stated similar concerns in an interview in East West Journal back in the 80's. He was responding to the idea that meditation can cure psychological problems. He adamantly stated that psychological problems can be worsened due to the fact that a weak sense of self/ego when undermined by meditation can have serious consequences.

 

I have been wondering if this had ever been addressed. Thank you.

[Brian]

There was a Tibetan Lama that gave a weekend teaching here in Santa Fe back in the early 90's, who worked in a psychiatric hospital in London. During the weekend, he was asked as to why he didn't teach meditation to the patients. His response was that meditation in almost any form could have negative effects if a person was not mentally balanced.

 

Ken Wilbur stated similar concerns in an interview in East West Journal back in the 80's. He was responding to the idea that meditation can cure psychological problems. He adamantly stated that psychological problems can be worsened due to the fact that a weak sense of self/ego when undermined by meditation can have serious consequences.

Yes, I have observed this firsthand as well (or maybe secondhand? I've seen it happen to people I know...)

 

Same holds true for "mind-enhancing drugs" as well.

[Orion]

Just wanted to say that I agree acupuncture can mess a person up, especially if the practitioner is intentionally trying to influence the subtle energy body. A practitioner who knows a bit (but not enough) about this energy body is more dangerous than a practitioner who knows nothing and only does deep, physical needling.

 

There are only two people in the entire city I live in who I will let treat me. I have seen some very disturbing practices by people combining incomplete understandings with TCM, and even worse by new agers who get their hands on a little bit of acupuncture knowledge. The problem is that people want to demonstrate "powers", but don't want to put in the necessary discipline to hone them. As any practitioner worth their salt can tell you, "powers" are just a manifestation along the path, you're not supposed to get attached to having them.

 

In the beginning when I was ignorant, I got messed up by a few such practitioners. If you're lucky enough to see auras or have a deeply rooted intuition for spotting people with some level of attainment, then you can use those gifts as barometers for finding the right practitioner.

 

IMO 95% of people practicing TCM should not be. They're doing it in a biomedical way with no knowledge of the energetic repercussions. A person should not be treating an aspect of the being that they themselves have not resolved in their own being. Thus we see people working on "crown chakras" from a completely materialistic, "I am this" standpoint without any ability to step out of that.

 

I'll never forget one patient who came in during my schooling years... he had a bright gold aura (quite rare) everywhere except his throat, because recently he had the flu and was feeling run down. He was over the flu but there was a smoldering pathogen in his lungs, also visible in his aura. The teacher correctly assessed the hidden pathogen, but then she instructed students to put 4 needles on his head in what are tantamount to the emanation points of the crown. After they were in, great disagreement erupted about which herbal formula to give this patient. There were literally students standing at his crown arguing, while his crown was being forced open.

 

The poor guy left the school that day with a lacklustre aura, his divine connection was messed up. I couldn't say anything because talk of auras is quack talk in institutions.

 

One of my classmates would, without fail, contract the symptoms of whoever she treated. If she treated leg pain, she'd get leg pain the next day. If she treated someone with heart problems, she would develop arrhythmia for a time. A teacher pulled her aside and taught her, "off the record", that she needed to strengthen her wei qi. This student was addicted to asking for health advice but never using it. She went on to be the highest graded student in the school and passed her licensing exam with flying colours. I would never, ever in a million years let that student touch me.

 

Credentials mean nothing. Anyone can pay money, do the intellectual thing, and pass an exam. There are "healers" in my city who charge hundreds of dollars for koolaid, and might even be messing people up. If only I could be a crooked materialist, I'd be raking it in right now. Seems like people who do things the right way tend to toil in obscurity

Edited January 9, 2016 by Orion

[ralis]

I have been wondering if this had ever been addressed. Thank you.

 

It has been decades since I read this book and if I remember correctly, it may touch on this subject. Although, I can't be absolutely certain.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Choices-Problem-Recognizing-Transformation/dp/0913729191/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1452359635&sr=1-1&keywords=spiritual+choices

[ralis]

Just wanted to say that I agree acupuncture can mess a person up, especially if the practitioner is intentionally trying to influence the subtle energy body. A practitioner who knows a bit (but not enough) about this energy body is more dangerous than a practitioner who knows nothing and only does deep, physical needling.

 

There are only two people in the entire city I live in who I will let treat me. I have seen some very disturbing practices by people combining incomplete understandings with TCM, and even worse by new agers who get their hands on a little bit of acupuncture knowledge. The problem is that people want to demonstrate "powers", but don't want to put in the necessary discipline to hone them. As any practitioner worth their salt can tell you, "powers" are just a manifestation along the path, you're not supposed to get attached to having them.

 

In the beginning when I was ignorant, I got messed up by a few such practitioners. If you're lucky enough to see auras or have a deeply rooted intuition for spotting people with some level of attainment, then you can use those gifts as barometers for finding the right practitioner.

 

IMO 95% of people practicing TCM should not be. They're doing it in a biomedical way with no knowledge of the energetic repercussions. A person should not be treating an aspect of the being that they themselves have not resolved in their own being. Thus we see people working on "crown chakras" from a completely materialistic, "I am this" standpoint without any ability to step out of that.

 

I'll never forget one patient who came in during my schooling years... he had a bright gold aura (quite rare) everywhere except his throat, because recently he had the flu and was feeling run down. He was over the flu but there was a smoldering pathogen in his lungs, also visible in his aura. The teacher correctly assessed the hidden pathogen, but then she instructed students to put 4 needles on his head in what are tantamount to the emanation points of the crown. After they were in, great disagreement erupted about which herbal formula to give this patient. There were literally students standing at his crown arguing, while his crown was being forced open.

 

The poor guy left the school that day with a lacklustre aura, his divine connection was messed up. I couldn't say anything because talk of auras is quack talk in institutions.

 

One of my classmates would, without fail, contract the symptoms of whoever she treated. If she treated leg pain, she'd get leg pain the next day. If she treated someone with heart problems, she would develop arrhythmia for a time. A teacher pulled her aside and taught her, "off the record", that she needed to strengthen her wei qi. This student was addicted to asking for health advice but never using it. She went on to be the highest graded student in the school and passed her licensing exam with flying colours. I would never, ever in a million years let that student touch me.

 

Credentials mean nothing. Anyone can pay money, do the intellectual thing, and pass an exam. There are "healers" in my city who charge hundreds of dollars for koolaid, and might even be messing people up. If only I could be a crooked materialist, I'd be raking it in right now. Seems like people who do things the right way tend to toil in obscurity

 

That fits my city of Santa Fe quite well. What city are you in if I may ask?