Your views about DAN TIAN!

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Hi Guys,

 

I just read the Magus of Java book of Kosta about his teacher John Chang and i had alot of thinking to do about how they build the Dan Tian and or create one maybe a better word.

 

So far from all my years of training, reading and understanding that Dan Tian we all have and is one of our power sources. From training the chi kung, nei kung etc we can build more chi and then allow it to settle or return back to the root (dan tian).

 

John Chang says that we need to create one and fill it up! This has intruiged me and im looking for what others can understand and share about Dan Tian.

 

 

Do we need to create one?

 

Does the Dan Tian build upon itself as meditate and train chi kung naturally or do one needs to force or use intent to store the chi there?

 

I would like to read what other have to say about this if you would like to share your views.

 

WYG

[Sunya]

i think the point of the dan tien isn't just to store chi, but to convert jing, sexual energy, into chi, life energy.

this isn't the end of the line though, the chi is then converted to shen, spiritual energy, in the middle dan tien in the heart. this is alchemy.

Edited November 4, 2007 by mikaelz

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Thanks Mik,

 

I understand those concepts, i guess what im asking is at a basic level do you feel that you have to create the dan tian like John Chang has said or do you think we all have a supply of chi in the dan tian already?

 

cheers

WYG

[宁]

I guess one should ask oneself what are the functions of the Dan Tian. If one has the abilities that go together with having a Dan Tian, then logically, the Dan Tian exists. If not, not.

The function of power source is mainly in the food we eat and air we breath. So there is not necessarely that we need a Dan Tian. Same with meridians, same with chakra, same with spirit, same with... you name it.

 

It seems this was a common view in the ancient times. But the new time require that the ancient knowledge should be more palatable to the masses. So some things are kept, some things are lost.

Like soul for instance, was the high acheivement of a dedicated even ascetic life, of work and spiritual practice, and cultivation of the De, virtue.

But nowadays there is the presumption that everyone has one.

 

I guess it depends on what you want to belive.

But certain acheivements are always accompanied by certain signs, and this is the priceless lesson of the Magus of Java. It should awake at least a fiew...

 

Little

[Jakara]

To go along with the John Chang story, I think it says that there are 72 levels in his system corresponding to 72 chakras of the human body. The lower dan tian is one of those chakras, so if we believe his system, we should also believe in the chakras in general.

I have yet to find a source which says chakras need to be "created" - as far as ive read everyone has chakras. Qigong also says the same, that we already have a dan tian, its part of being human. Perhaps Chang in this sense meant that we must fill it with qi to make it a 'useful', rather than actually create the chakra itself. So maybe he means create a useable dan tian, since all sources suggest we are all born with a dan tian.

 

I just thought, the term 'dan tian' means something like 'elixir field' or 'cinnabar field', which, correct me if Im wrong, amounts to something like a 'field of qi'. So I think the chakra itself exists for everyone, but making it into a 'field of qi' or 'dan tian' by storing qi there might be what he means by 'creating the dan tian'.

 

As far as storing qi is concerned, if I remember correctly the daoist texts say that the qi follows the will of the mind, or the mind-intent. So if we focus our mind on our dan tian whilst in meditation, it should naturally fill of its own accord.

I think 'force' in this sense again means mind-intent, we shouldn't sit there physically trying to force chi into our bellies, I think that may be the path to hernias and hemorrhoids.

Edited November 4, 2007 by Jakara

[Oolong Rabbit]

Like soul for instance, was the high acheivement of a dedicated even ascetic life, of work and spiritual practice, and cultivation of the De, virtue.

But nowadays there is the presumption that everyone has one.

 

This was Gurdjieff's view, which he allegedly learned of the Sarmoung Brotherhood. The teachings seem like a mix between taoism and sufism.

 

To go along with the John Chang story, I think it says that there are 72 levels in his system corresponding to 72 chakras of the human body. The lower dan tien is one of those chakras, so if we believe his system, we should also believe in the chakras in general.

I have yet to find a source which says chakras need to be "created" - as far as ive read everyone has chakras. Qigong also says the same, that we already have a dan tien, its part of being human. Perhaps Chang in this sense meant that we must fill it with qi to make it a 'useful', rather than actually create the chakra itself. So maybe he means create a useable dan tien, since all sources suggest we are all born with a dan tien.

 

Sounds about right to me. I don't think John Chang did anything much to create a Dantien for Kosta. Just told him that he needs X hours of meditation for it to be full. Sean and David's stuff seem to have similar views. I would say the main concern would center on energy leakage.

[Spectrum]

chakras and dan tiens are not synonomous.

 

when you circulate you are refining. It is linked like that. Imagine that you when you start you have a few large rocks in a bag. You crush them up into marbles, now you can fit a few more marbles in your bag. Crush up the marbles into powder and now you can fit twice as much in the same size bag. Now you can make the bag bigger to fit bigger rocks, but if you don't grind down the rocks you'll always think you need a bigger bag.

 

Spectrum

Edited November 4, 2007 by Spectrum

[宁]

interesting, Spectrum, I like the analogy.

however, I suspect it's a little more than that.

by the way, whay ways do you people know of increasing the TT capacity?

[Spectrum]

Thanks Little1. My point is that size doesn't equal density. I agree that there is more to the story.

 

The function of power source is mainly in the food we eat and air we breath.

 

You missed a very key piece here. Absorbsion/Digestion/Circulation of Chi through Movement.

 

Breathing

Eating

Moving

 

Spectrum

[宁]

Yes, as in an unconscious process... I agree.

[jan1107]

I will just share my own experience. For me the lower dantien (the abdominal dan tian) gives me a lot of peace and inner security. It it like an anchor that gives the ship stability. I need a long time sometimes to fill it up. But when it is "filled up" I can feel the chi go to areas in my bodies that have less energy. I like that I can practice my focussing of the lower dantian everywhere I want. I do not know how much further this can go. I experienced very interesting things when I focussed on the dantian for a couple of hours. For example sometimes i practice sitting in a train or waiting somewhere. When I focus for a longer time the dantian gets more and more "alive". Also I feel that the body kind of balances itself without much effort.

One time I was in India and had a sparring fight with a Karate master. Altough we were both full of respect it got a little macho like harder (sorry for my bad english). Afterwards my foot hurt very badly and I couldnt hardly walk anymore. Two days later it was still very bad. When I came to the airport I sat down and focussed for about an hour on the lower dantian. I became very tired and fell asleep in my seat in the waiting room. When I walk up the pain of my foot was 80 % gone. A little later it was almost completely gone.

I would not say that I am very talented in this. As I said, to feel my lower Dantian I need a long time until it feels warm. But I always had a great benefit from taking the time and working with it. I hope that could inspire you a bit.

[宁]

Yes, you do inspire us. You would be amazed how many people experience simmilar things.

Good luck on your way

[Smile]

Dantian?... Imagine a garbage field where through your whole life you dumped all your "stuff" that you didn't have time, energy, whatever to deal with. Now, after stepping on a spiritual path, they tell you everyone has this special place in the navel where you can generate a "spark" that will eventually create an immortal embryo and grow it, etc... Only the problem is, the space needed to generate the "coupling" of the energies has to be completely pure, pristine, void. Until it happens, all you play with is a fantasy without any real foundation.

So yes, you need to create the dantian, the cauldron, the pure space. Dao De Ching in the first verses goes straight for the heart of this truth and how to do it. Part of it is in the footer of my every post.

M

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Great responses guys!

 

Smile,

 

Can you elaborate more please so i can get a better picture of what you are saying?

 

Regards

WYG

[Spectrum]

Outta here for the week.

 

Happy Wuji to you all.

 

Spectrum

[Smile]

Can you elaborate more please so i can get a better picture of what you are saying?

If you want to cook something in a pot, you need to clean the garbage out of the pot first before you put food in there. In daoist tradition, you create a cauldron ("the pot") using a veriety of methods all of them leading to one-pointed concentration/emptiness.

[Spectrum]

all of them leading to one-pointed concentration/emptiness.

 

What a breath of fresh air. Thank you Smile.

[laotse]

If you want to cook something in a pot, you need to clean the garbage out of the pot first before you put food in there. In daoist tradition, you create a cauldron ("the pot") using a veriety of methods all of them leading to one-pointed concentration/emptiness.

 

does that mean stillness creates the dantien?

for what you need the dantien when you achieved stillness?

 

 

here is a statement from one of these dragon door masters....i forgot his name, but you could read more about that in david shens forum.

 

"You have the tien, the field, but you don't really have the dan or

elixir. If you were planting rice, for example, before the rice was

planted, you could not call the area a rice field. It would simply be a

field. And before you do the planting, you need to prepare the field, to

cultivate, fertilize, water, and so on. Only then do you put in the seeds,

and when the plants grow, you can call it a rice field.

 

Similarly in cultivation - before we can do the real work of

cultivation, we only have what can be thought of as wild land. The way qigong is

ordinarily taught is comparable to having someone go out into a field

and imagine they are watching the crops grow when there isn't anything

there because nothing has actually been planted.

 

By placing your awareness in the lower field, aren't you drawing qi to

that area?

 

It's not real, genuine energy, It's just a kind of feeling you have.

The dan or elixir is not something you can create by simply imagining or

feeling it. If you just use your imagination, then you will create

something that is illusory, an illusory elixir, which will inevitably give

you problems."

[nightwatchdog]

does that mean stillness creates the dantien?

for what you need the dantien when you achieved stillness?

here is a statement from one of these dragon door masters....i forgot his name, but you could read more about that in david shens forum.

 

"You have the tien, the field, but you don't really have the dan or

elixir. If you were planting rice, for example, before the rice was

planted, you could not call the area a rice field. It would simply be a

field. And before you do the planting, you need to prepare the field, to

cultivate, fertilize, water, and so on. Only then do you put in the seeds,

and when the plants grow, you can call it a rice field.

 

Similarly in cultivation - before we can do the real work of

cultivation, we only have what can be thought of as wild land. The way qigong is

ordinarily taught is comparable to having someone go out into a field

and imagine they are watching the crops grow when there isn't anything

there because nothing has actually been planted.

 

By placing your awareness in the lower field, aren't you drawing qi to

that area?

 

It's not real, genuine energy, It's just a kind of feeling you have.

The dan or elixir is not something you can create by simply imagining or

feeling it. If you just use your imagination, then you will create

something that is illusory, an illusory elixir, which will inevitably give

you problems."

 

It is not clear to me if this person is using the terms as many Chi Kung masters use them, or if he is interpreting the terms the way the masses usually do. In other words is he making a play on words to make his point, or is he missing the point entirely?

 

In either case, the very first step in preparing for Chi Kung practice is learning to still the mind. This can take quite a long time for most people, and this can be likened to preparing one's field for cultivation. This is why zazen, sitting and forgetting, silence meditation, stillness, vipassana, wuji etc. is always considered the root of any legitimate practice. Your practice begins there, and always it must return there as well. That's why even Shakyamuni Buddha practiced zazen for fifty more years after he was enlightened!

 

Once you can make your mind obedient, then you can place your intention on Dan Tien and miraculous things can happen. An undisciplined mind will always get in the way of cultivating Chi. It's not because the mind controls the chi, or visualizes the Chi though. It's because where the mind goes, the chi follows. We've all heard this truth.

 

So tell me, where is your mind going? When you have a quiet mind and intention on Dan Tien, where is the chi going? Have no mind, and no intention, then where is the chi going? Who is cultivating? Who is directing? Who is experiencing?

 

This is the key and gateway to successful cultivation.

[宁]

lao tse, who said that, D Shen or the masters?

[Sucus]

 

I understand those concepts, i guess what im asking is at a basic level do you feel that you have to create the dan tian like John Chang has said or do you think we all have a supply of chi in the dan tian already?

 

 

I believe John Chang says that Chi has to be put there for the dantien to function. He did say that the dantien holds yang chi, and that the practitioner can feel the heat from it. I'm actually not sure if it has to be created or not. In my opinion, it's always there.

[DentyDao]

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Hi Sean,

 

No this is some major interesting information, and this maybe is teh downfall to most chinese martial arts even most martial arts systems that use this word "Dan Tian"!

 

Can you explain how one is to start to even get the Dan or Dan Tian started?

 

How does someone like John Chang get such high level abilities without the dan or dan tian and could you give us a breakdown of what Xia Tian means?

 

respectfully

WYG

[DentyDao]

[宁]

so how come only the long men pai sect and only wang liping knows everything about dan tian, and all the rest are plain ignorants

it's so unfair

 

this is really turning into a pattern, doesn't it. DS found a better master than chang, so chang is now close to worthless. so were the other masters he studied with in the past. and someday he will find someone better than liping. so liping will be another name on the list of worthless masters for him.

and guess what, he surrounds himself with people that have the same attitude.

 

still i have respect for what you guys do, it's a legitimate way as the other ways. plus we find out more about stuff from china, really interesting. maybe you really help us, not in the way you think you do...

 

 

thanx

 

PS: You have to excuse me, I exagerated a bit just to make a point

Edited November 15, 2007 by Little1