nothing is gained or lost

[3bob]

a lot of fear relates to feelings and thoughts about gaining or losing something,

 

for instance some of us have various forms of fear about not gaining enlightenment -  what a catch 22 that is, fearing that we will not gain that which is not fearful... and then jumping through an endless numbers of hoops to get what we think it is...

 

consider - if enlightenment could be gained then it could also be lost, thus it would just be another thing coming or going, being in effect one day and not in effect on another, etc..

 

so "what is a soul to do"? (in a meantime that we live in) We have lots of human based choices but in the end there is still nothing that can be gained or lost...since there is nothing that can gained or lost  outside of the One that already is.

Edited January 9, 2016 by 3bob

[Karl]

a lot of fear relates to feelings and thoughts about gaining or losing something,

 

for instance some of us have various forms of fear about not gaining enlightenment -  what a catch 22 that is, fearing that we will not gain that which is not fearful... and then jumping through an endless numbers of hoops to get what we think it is...

 

consider - if enlightenment could be gained then it could also be lost, thus it would just be another thing coming or going, being in effect one day and not in effect on another, etc..

 

so "what is a soul to do"? (in a meantime that we live in) We have lots of human based choices but in the end there is still nothing that can be gained or lost...since there is nothing that can gained or lost  outside of the One that already is.

 

Just because something is transient doesn't mean that it should not be sought or attained. It does not mean it isn't attainable, or that it is intrinsic to self. The potential always exists, but some action must first occur for that potential to be reached. It is not always possible, but it isn't impossible.

 

 

[3bob]

well one angle we can look at on this matter is to our Buddhist buddies, namely to the wisdom teachings about non-attachment -  being that the opposite or attachment is when forms of fear basically come into play....  the ideas about potential are good but an unintended and self-induced counter potential tends to come along with that which is tricky.

Edited January 9, 2016 by 3bob

[Karl]

well one angle we can look at on this matter is to our Buddhist buddies, namely to the wisdom teachings about non-attachment -  being that the opposite or attachment is when forms of fear basically come into play....  the ideas about potential are good but an unintended and self-induced counter potential tends to come along with that which is tricky.

 

If it is wished to take a fundamentalist approach to the teachings of non attachment then I suggest it must ultimately result in Nihlism.

 

Can I suggest another approach ?

 

That there are earned and unearned values. That the baker who can prepare a loaf of bread is happier than the thief who must steal it. The baker has earned the value of the bread and does not fear it's loss, for he can always make another as he had made the first. He is not pleased to lose the value of his effort, but it is an irritation only. The thief, in contrast, cannot make another and lives in fear of starving, or being robbed, or caught stealing. Earn a value and it is never lost-one remains unattached in that way. Take an unearned value and one is attached and unhappy.

 

 

[Marblehead]

Doesn't matter too much how much I gain or lose.  When I die none of it will matter to me.

[Karl]

Doesn't matter too much how much I gain or lose.  When I die none of it will matter to me.

 

Precisely. Which is all the more reason to gain fairly earned values in life, because that's the one we are living.

[3bob]

Karl, I think those were some good points you expressed in post #4 although I would not make a hard and fast rule that ties non-attachment to nihilism... granted there are slippery nihilistic slopes that one can get caught on in most paths, including in certain interpretations of Buddhism - but in the case of non-attachment per the insight of wise Buddhist teachings such a generalization does not hold water for me.  A simple and partial analogy could be demonstrated with the Chinese finger trap.  The harder one pulls on its attachment to their fingers the tighter the trap is set, yet and only with the insight of that result can one then loosen the attachment to their fingers by not pulling so that they can get free of the trap.

[3bob]

MH, I don't know about you but I wouldn't mind losing say 20 pounds, then I'd be less attached to the earth by gravity

[Karl]

Karl, I think those were some good points you expressed in post #4 although I would not make a hard and fast rule that ties non-attachment to nihilism... granted there are slippery nihilistic slopes that one can get caught on in most paths, including in certain interpretations of Buddhism - but in the case of non-attachment per the insight of wise Buddhist teachings such a generalization does not hold water for me. A simple and partial analogy could be demonstrated with the Chinese finger trap. The harder one pulls on its attachment to their fingers the tighter the trap is set, yet and only with the insight of that result can one then loosen the attachment to their fingers by not pulling so that they can get free of the trap.

If you weren't attached to your finger then it would not be your finger. If you were not first attached to your freedom then you would have no need to remove your finger. If you were not attached to your mind you would be unable to reason your finger out of the trap. If you weren't attached to your eyes, muscles, Gravity, air, planet nothing at all would be possible.

 

If you are attached to the idea of non attachment then this is a problem because the finger trap shows clearly that existence exists, independence is reality, our senses touch that reality, our mind grasps it and our muscles work to perform actions within that existent reality. Try and ignore existent reality and the finger remains stuck.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Karl

[3bob]

umm, lets not to carried away... I could pull some of that convoluted and projected stuff myself but I need to go and do some honey-do's before getting to attached to not doing so. Know what I mean?

[liminal_luke]

Doesn't matter too much how much I gain or lose.  When I die none of it will matter to me.

Reminds me of my friend Greg who always encourages me to eat glazed donuts. "Seventy five years from now nobody will care whether or not you ate that dunut."

[Karl]

umm, lets not to carried away... I could pull some of that convoluted and projected stuff myself but I need to go and do some honey-do's before getting to attached to not doing so. Know what I mean?

It's not convoluted. :-)

 

It's the finger trap and the philosophy that goes with it that is convoluted. An animal would struggle to escape because they are incapable of deploying reason and thus going against their instinct to continue pulling. A man has experience, reason, logic and volition and can escape. It proves nothing about mental attachment except in the physical sense-the harder one grips the more one can hold on to something. The finger trap is only a trick which can be overcome by using the mind.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Karl

[3bob]

ok, you win Karl, enjoy

Edited January 9, 2016 by 3bob

[3bob]

I wonder if I lose 20 pounds and the totality of the cosmos still has to balance out then who gets those 20 pounds I once had and is it fair? 

Edited January 9, 2016 by 3bob

[silent thunder]

too many assumptions in both the baker and thief and with the finger trap/animal analogy for my taste...

sure, in one case with one theoretical baker and one theoretical thief that situation may apply

but there are myriad other scenarios we may easily make up that would not fit and would all be equally salacious and fabricated... 

 

as to animals being unable to process logic, ever watched a raven solve an 8 step puzzle?

 

too much certainty in any regard almost guarantees absurdity of position

[silent thunder]

I wonder if I lose 20 pounds and the totality of the cosmos still has to balance out then who gets those 20 pounds I once had and is it fair? 

reminds me of that savvy ad by snickers... where does my hunger go when I eat this? 

 

[3bob]

I can dig that thunder man.

[Karl]

ok, you win Karl, enjoy

 

I don't look to win you know Bob. Just to discover the truth if it's possible.

[Karl]

too many assumptions in both the baker and thief and with the finger trap/animal analogy for my taste...

sure, in one case with one theoretical baker and one theoretical thief that situation may apply

but there are myriad other scenarios we may easily make up that would not fit and would all be equally salacious and fabricated...

 

as to animals being unable to process logic, ever watched a raven solve an 8 step puzzle?

 

too much certainty in any regard almost guarantees absurdity of position

Animals possess intelligence though, but not reason. They cannot choose to go against that which would promote their own survival.

 

You could offer an argument against both the finger trap analogy and the baker/thief example. It would be interesting to hear your rebuttal.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Karl

[dawei]

I wonder if I lose 20 pounds and the totality of the cosmos still has to balance out then who gets those 20 pounds I once had and is it fair? 

 

Did you ask the same question when you gained those 20 pounds?  

 

I think the answer should be the same

[3bob]

well Dawei let's up the ante and say someone attains enlightenment, does that mean somewhere in the cosmic scheme of things that someone else does not and is that fair?  (being if we accept the idea that there are only so many slots existing for only so much critical help in attaining such... btw, if the historic Buddha checked out of the system of the One then someone else seemingly had to check in to fill his old slot)

Edited January 9, 2016 by 3bob

[Karl]

I wonder if I lose 20 pounds and the totality of the cosmos still has to balance out then who gets those 20 pounds I once had and is it fair? 

 

I thought you were just having a laugh when you said that. I'm still thinking you were joking ?

 

 

[3bob]

hell I don't know, let's see what pops out of the bushes?

[dawei]

well Dawei let's up the ante and say someone attains enlightenment, does that mean somewhere in the cosmic scheme of things that someone else does not and is that fair?  (being if we accept the idea that there are only so many slots existing for only so much critical help in doing so)

 

Great point...

 

So is a cosmic idea of gaining/losing weight to be compared to slots available for enlightenment ?

 

My comment was trying to consider the conservation of energy... it simply ALL moves about..  but you rightly comment about whether there is a contained amount in my point.

 

I would only say it is an exchange within.

[Karl]

Great point...

 

So is a cosmic idea of gaining/losing weight to be compared to slots available for enlightenment ?

 

My comment was trying to consider the conservation of energy... it simply ALL moves about..  but you rightly comment about whether there is a contained amount in my point.

 

I would only say it is an exchange within.

 

Nah stop it, you two are just messing about. You do know that you don't lose weight just fail to maintain it either by decreasing consumption or by increasing energy output, or by a combination of both ? Yeah you know that ;-)