nothing is gained or lost

[Marblehead]

well Dawei let's up the ante and say someone attains enlightenment, does that mean somewhere in the cosmic scheme of things that someone else does not and is that fair?  (being if we accept the idea that there are only so many slots existing for only so much critical help in attaining such... btw, if the historic Buddha checked out of the system of the One then someone else seemingly had to check in to fill his old slot)

Actually, potential is unlimited so for one to gain there is no opposite of one to lose.

[3bob]

oh and what potential is there outside of a One that contains all potentials

[dawei]

Nah stop it, you two are just messing about. You do know that you don't lose weight just fail to maintain it either by decreasing consumption or by increasing energy output, or by a combination of both ? Yeah you know that ;-)

 

You must miss the greater metaphor in it all...

[9th]

Animals possess intelligence though, but not reason. They cannot choose to go against that which would promote their own survival.

 

Sure they can, but it almost always has to do with protecting their young.

[3bob]

and there are whales that beach themselves...and ants that sacrifice themselves for their fellow ants to further accomplish things

[Karl]

You must miss the greater metaphor in it all...

Only to those that imagine to world to be one in which being alive means someone else must die.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Karl

[Karl]

and there are whales that beach themselves...and ants that sacrifice themselves for their fellow ants to further accomplish things

 

They don't sacrifice themselves they haven't that capacity. In the case of Ants, all effort is towards reproduction and survival of the nest. They don't choose if they should reproduce as humans do. In the case of Whales-as far as I understand it as I'm not a marine biologist-they end up getting confused during navigation and get into difficulty.

[Karl]

Sure they can, but it almost always has to do with protecting their young.

Funnily enough there was a program on that subject the other night. It showed monkeys that abandoned their progeny as soon as the adults survival was threatened. Up to the point of defending their young, most animals do, but that is an innate instinct and not a reasoned choice. If the danger to their own survival rises they will abandon their young and in some cases they will even resort to eating them.

 

At times we also act instinctively and abandon reason, it's not the case that we always will use it. Typically during riots there is an abandonment of reason-rioters often can't understand why they committed acts of violence, they describe it as 'just going along with the crowd'. Of the stock market it is said that 'men go mad in numbers and only recover one at a time'. People describe 'crimes of passion' or 'blind hatred'.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Karl

[3bob]

let's give our animal buddies a break and get back to the idea of nothing gained and nothing lost:

 

when the One returns to the Tao has the Tao gained anything or lost anything?

when the Tao gives birth to the One does it gain anything or lose anything?

when the One returns to the Tao must it die in a sense just as it was born in a sense? (so that the next cycle of the One can then also be born again)

 

and or whatever folks might be thinking?

Edited January 10, 2016 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

Think separation and return.

[Karl]

Same as any question on faith, it is predicated on a belief and not a fact and therefore-for myself-I cannot even begin to answer something which has that predicate. You have effectively narrowed the discussion, but as its your discussion I respect your terms and bow out.

[3bob]

enlightenment level knowledge (related to such matters) is not based on belief.  Btw, I have no problem with the place and purposes of faith properly used - meaning not blind faith without any facts and experience to go along with it.

Edited January 10, 2016 by 3bob

[3bob]

MH, what level of separation are you alluding to?

[Marblehead]

MH, what level of separation are you alluding to?

The Ten Thousand Things.

[Karl]

enlightenment level knowledge (related to such matters) is not based on belief.  Btw, I have no problem with the place and purposes of faith properly used - meaning not blind faith without any facts and experience to go along with it.

 

That means a definition for the Tao in the same way that the church defines God. I understand the intrincist position on God-I happen not to accept it, but it's clear enough. I am unable to argue with an intrincisist that begins with the premise of an omniscient, omnipotent creator from the outset. Much less can I argue with a Daoist which I can't even begin to comprehend when the subject is the Tao.

[9th]

Funnily enough there was a program on that subject the other night. It showed monkeys that abandoned their progeny as soon as the adults survival was threatened. Up to the point of defending their young, most animals do, but that is an innate instinct and not a reasoned choice. If the danger to their own survival rises they will abandon their young and in some cases they will even resort to eating them.

 

You say this as if that is always the case, but I can promise you that is wrong.  It does happen, but so does sacrifice.  Ive seen it with my own eyes.  They are just about as various as people for the most part.

 

However, if you are just looking for a comfortable answer, Im sure you can find one wherever you look.  It wont be true or applicable, but you can surely find one.

[Karl]

You say this as if that is always the case, but I can promise you that is wrong.  It does happen, but so does sacrifice.  Ive seen it with my own eyes.  They are just about as various as people for the most part.

 

However, if you are just looking for a comfortable answer, Im sure you can find one wherever you look.  It wont be true or applicable, but you can surely find one.

 

You would have to prove that animals have reason and the current position is that they don't. If you ever wondered why animals aren't capitalists, builders, or engineers is because they cannot conceptualise, they do only what is instinctive. They aren't born as we are, they function from the get go because they are bereft of the learning cycle necessary for humans. They learn to walk, fly, swim, hunt, mate and fight and that's all they require. After that they are automatic. It doesn't mean they lack intelligence, or that they are incapable of emotion, but they have no reasoning and therefore self sacrifice is simply beyond them. We are the weakest physical species on the planet, but it is the ability to conceptualise and reason that has made us dominant.

 

So, not at all a comfortable answer as you describe it, but a reasoned argument based on factual evidence and scientific knowledge. If you can produce evidence to the contrary the entire scientific world is waiting to hear it.

[3bob]

MH, yet even the 10,000 are not separate from the Tao to which they to will return, meaning they are not going to go someplace in "no-space"  completely separate and independent from the Tao.  (in case that is what you meant?)

[Marblehead]

MH, yet even the 10,000 are not separate from the Tao to which they to will return, meaning they are not going to go someplace in "no-space"  completely separate and independent from the Tao.  (in case that is what you meant?)

Yep.  This is a difficult concept to discuss.  Separate and self sustaining?  No.  Separate as in special and unique?  Yes.

 

But also, let us remember that Tao is a verb, not a noun.  Tao gave birth (or caused the birth of) One.  One gave birth ...

 

All things return to One.  Tao is the Way this happens.

 

But while these things are manifest they are special and unique.

[3bob]

I'd say that with Tao being "Mystery" we can not nail it down as verb, noun or any "thing" else yet I get your point about certain aspects - aspects that are referred to in Taoist teachings -  yet no one can exactly prove most of those aspects (including the "Way of Tao") unless we are only talking about the very limited and thin proofs that the 5 senses can provide for that which they can observe - which is still not 100% proof of what I hear you saying as the "Way" aspect. 

Edited January 10, 2016 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

True what you say 3bob.

 

But still, observing the processes (of Tao) we can arrive at some pretty good theories.  Facts will remain elusive.  There is so much to know and our ability to understand is limited.

 

And true, we cannot define something that is not a thing.  Still holding true:  Those who speak (of Tao) do not know and those who know (we cannot speak of) do not speak.

[Karl]

 

Still holding true:  Those who speak (of Tao) do not know and those who know (we cannot speak of) do not speak.

 

"To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible."

Is attributed to St Thomas Aquinas regarding religious faith.

 

 

 

 

[dawei]

I'd say that with Tao being "Mystery" we can not nail it down as verb, noun or any "thing" else yet I get your point about certain aspects - aspects that are referred to in Taoist teachings -  yet no one can exactly prove most of those aspects (including the "Way of Tao") unless we are only talking about the very limited and thin proofs that the 5 senses can provide for that which they can observe - which is still not 100% proof of what I hear you saying as the "Way" aspect. 

 

that word "mystery" is also a loan for "origin"... I have always preferred the latter.

[dawei]

"To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible." Is attributed to St Thomas Aquinas regarding religious faith.

 

replace faith with experience...   

[Karl]

replace faith with experience...   

 

Experience would indicate that the senses had touched upon it and the consciousness had grasped it. A concept would be formed relating the concept to all other concepts. Therefore it can be defined in terms of those other concepts and therefore explained to others. Experience isn't isolated it has to be linked to existing knowledge or it could not be known at all. In other words 'experience' would be a divine revelation, or feeling that something is true-which is faith.