Withdrawel vs. Engagement

[Cymro]

Hello, all!

Lately I've hit upon a sticking place in my endless pursuit of understanding--I'm not a very good student in this regard.

The DDJ and other Daoist texts suggest that a wise man withdraws from the world and doesn't allow himself to get bogged down in worldly affairs like government and politics. Daoism's counterparts in the West--the Stoics and Epicureans, among others--offer the same guidance. The thinking behind this choice is to me obvious; don't be distracted by the passing and temporal and focus instead on living well/rightly/in balance.

However, I feel like this opens up a morality question: with so much evil in the world today, I feel the need to stay engaged, informed, and active in order to try and make things a bit better. We live in the proverbial interesting times; a quick glance at the news confirms it.

What are your thoughts, dear friends? Is there a balance to be struck?

[Daeluin]

The dao is often paradoxial.

 

I was watching a movie recently, where a daughter secretly saw her mother kissing another man, and he said What if he catches us? She replied I don't care about him.

 

The daughter hated her mother for this for a long time after that, until one day her father told her he had cheated first. He explained how she waited 6 months for him to return to her, and asked him to have the decency to do the same if their positions were ever reversed.

 

Once the daughter heard this, it completely nullified her reasons to hate her mother.

 

My point is that we often can draw conclusions that seem right, but might be misinformed. Just like optical illusions. From one perspective things seem clear, logical, and so on, and in knowing this, we take action. Alas, all too often, this action is taken without awareness of all perspectives, and what we thought led to balance actually led to greater imbalance.

 

When we practice acceptance, and rest upon all that guides us, we become very aware of how we are pushed and pulled around in this world. All we need to do is learn to remain balanced within these guiding forces, and in learning to discover our balance, we use what controls us to create refinement and harmony within.

 

On the flip side, when we use the resources available to us to make decisions and perform actions that ripple out into the world, then we are constantly responsible for the things that ripple back to us. As long as we keep creating and acting, it is difficult to recognize where we really stand, difficult to find where the balance lies.

 

When we withdraw and learn to cultivate stillness, we begin to shed layers of these ripples, until a calm, a peace develops internally, and we become aware of things at a greater depth.

 

From this new perspective, it becomes easier to respond to the world in a way that helps to maintain this internal balance. But a certain freedom can be helpful to maintain this. The freedom to change one's environment when it threatens one's internal balance. Like learning to stop eating when one is full. Or ending a conversation when one's mind is too full. Sometimes if the other person does not wish to end the conversation, removing one's self from their presence is an option. It if is not, perhaps one learns to summon greater will power to assimilate the words that are overwhelming one's ability to maintain inner peace.

 

And in this way one ebbs and flows across the world, flowing like the water in a river. The river doesn't chose its path, it ever follows the lowest path before it, sometimes twisting, turning, settling to rise up over a blockage, falling over a cliff and spreading out into mist, and so on, allowing the dao to guide it naturally, without getting in the way.

 

But sometimes systems are implemented that interfere with the way of natural balance. Everything balances out in the end, and thus everything is natural. And yet things that have been headed toward balance and harmony may be perceived to be changed by some new systems and end up heading away from balance and harmony.

 

We can see this in a cancer cell, that decides to form it's own cluster of cell tissue, growing and assimilating and creating it's own system of balance... even as it ends up going against the pre-existing balance of the system it works to assimilate. In the end it destroys the system it worked to assimilate, and dies itself when the system can no longer support it.

 

Some might look at human society in much the same way. Rather than living under the sun and stars, one decides to protect oneself behind four walls and a roof. Perhaps one attempts to separate oneself from the balance of nature and create one's own balance. But this new balance is still within the old balance, and those walls still end up interacting with the old balance. Bugs end up getting into the new place and one has to enforce the rules of the new balance by dealing with the bugs if they aren't allowed in the new balance. The walls block the harmony of the outer balance from entering into the new balance, and so the new balance needs to create means for harmonization or it won't be a balanced system at all.

 

Fast forward to fields where only one food-bearing species is cultivated, another lack of balance, and then the predators of that species multiply much more quickly, and towns and roads that interrupt the flow of water when it pours and creates floods, and so on. The newly desired ideal for human balance is ever at odds with the reality of the existing natural balance. And then when ecosystems cannot support maintenance of the old balance, the old balance begins to deteriorate. And when the new balance begins to gain a long history and momentum, becoming more balanced with its many moving parts, this new balance becomes that much more powerful, even if it remains a destructive force to the old balance.

 

Zhuangzi has a section about this, related to Robber Zhi. It is noted how Sages whom nurture and advise Emperors may be benefiting the world in a few instances, yet injuring it in many, even as the reverse might be said of robbers and thieves. And at the same time he elaborates on the case of Robber Zhi, who wages war on human civilization, which might be called an act of intentional rebalancing, and yet still would be deemed perverted and not following the way.

 

Whatever our perception of balance in the external, it is true that we can only truly know our own selves from the inside-out, and all else from the outside-in. Thus whom are we to presume to actively change the external realm? We already know that by leaving things alone, they will naturally come to balance - and perhaps all the more quickly without our intervention. And too we can discover that by minding out own internal balances, we will naturally be influencing the external balances in a non-prejudiced way, simply by being.

 

Internally cultivating one's center, externally accepting and trusting, the paradoxes of the dao cease to be a trap for one's ego.

[Bearded Dragon]

Withdrawal and engagement are a pair that is applied to every situation together. It's not like you constantly want to abstain from one thing in order to engage in another. You can think like that if you want but that is not the main point.

 

The idea is to be able to see clearly in every situation (hence the refinement of self, such that you become more equipped to do this) and know the right timing of when to engage and withdraw. Engage when it's the right time, and withdraw when nothing more is to be done. This is important because it happens allllllllll the time in every situation.

 

The key is seeing, which is an embodied thing which is learned over time. Intellectual understanding is not required. When you see clearer you tend to make smarter choices. When you can explain something but can't see clearly then you often make dumb choices.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Bearded Dragon

[Netero]

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Edited August 18, 2016 by Netero

[seekingbuddha]

I have not studied Daoist texts, but my belief is that all spiritual maters have advocated withdrawal from society.  Buddha prescribed  "renunciation" as the first step towards liberation of mind.  Jesus  took his disciples from family/society  into a life unattached to their former social bonds.   I can not think of a single Enlightened person, who has not gone through the phase of living  "alone, away from society".  These spiritual masters also understood that NOT everyone will be willing to break free of the bondages that we form in our minds - family, friends, money, work etc.  Even when  I  see all this clearly,  i have fear  arising out of  the factors of   health/old-age/comfort  that stop me from becoming a solitary monk.   

 

So, short of becoming a solitary monk,  we have only one solution :  Try to find the balance that prior post is talking about.  Some sort of balance between our desire to lead  a life free from suffering,  and our desire to stay within the society and its bondages. Every effort  in life needs time to practice and perfect.  So,  growth in spiritual realm also needs time commitment, which would not be possible for someone  who  is engaged in other activities (money making, family making, etc).  It is wonderful  if someone can see all this during their youth; because that is the time when one has the choice of  NOT creating further bondages (marriage, child etc).  But, the lure of opposite sex  is strong during our youth.

[dust]

The DDJ and other Daoist texts suggest that a wise man withdraws from the world and doesn't allow himself to get bogged down in worldly affairs like government and politics.

 

Well, this isn't entirely true, is it? A large chunk of the DDJ, for example, is dedicated to advising a political ruler how best to rule. Hard to do without engaging. And yeah, there is also, as you say, stuff like this:

 

Without going outside his door, one understands (all that takes place) under the sky; without looking out from his window, one sees the Dao of Heaven. The farther that one goes out (from himself), the less he knows.

(Laozi 47)

 

Indeed there seems to be a lot of paradox involved.

 

 

However, I feel like this opens up a morality question: with so much evil in the world today, I feel the need to stay engaged, informed, and active in order to try and make things a bit better. We live in the proverbial interesting times; a quick glance at the news confirms it.

 

What are your thoughts, dear friends? Is there a balance to be struck?

 

I think...it doesn't need to be either/or.

 

Before I go on with this short history, let me make a general observation -- the test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function. One should, for example, be able to see that things are hopeless and yet be determined to make them otherwise.

(F. Scott Fitzgerald, The Crack-Up)

 

It's also worth noting that the DDJ isn't a perfect book of universal law handed to an immaculate prophet from some omniscient creator. In other words, it's not a bible, it's a guide, written by a bunch of ancient people. Same with the other Daoist texts. Some were wise, some probably not so.

 

Not every chapter in every text can be universally applied; actually, I'm pretty sure that certain chapters should be generally ignored. If you find paradox, or something you disagree with, you don't necessarily need to worry yourself.

 

 

If you feel like engaging, engage. Engaging can be brilliant. And if you don't, don't. Withdrawal can be good too. Just be aware of yourself, your reasons for doing what you're doing, and know that you can't truly change the world, though it can be good to try.

[Marblehead]

What are your thoughts, dear friends? Is there a balance to be struck?

I call it harmony.  The world is going to be at our front door every time we open it.  And when we check our mail, there it is again.  And when we answer the phone.

 

I think it is best to avoid as much as possible but have the knowledge to know what to avoid.

[shanlung]

Is the world to stand still when you are in search of the Tao?

In search of something that never left you in the first place?

 

The butcher, the wheel maker and oil seller found the Tao in their every day work.

Musahi found the Tao in chopping off heads and limbs and writing about that in his 5 Rings.

 

Master Liu found the Tao in a brothel financed by gold he created from roadside stones.

Even in my stint of 66-72 hours work week in Riyadh, I never left the Tao in between hosannas I had to make

to Emperor beautiful clothings.

 

Relax, and the Tao will always be there.

Be uptight!  Tao also will be there.

 

But if you feel compelled to abandon everything and contemplate the fluff in your navel, you will also find the Tao is there as well.

 

Be free and go where the Tao brings you and you can do no wrong.

 

 

Idiotic Taoist

[Daeluin]

What a great topic!

 

After reading the replies, all of which are fantastic, I feel aroused to further elaboration.

 

In my post I hoped to describe what my Sifu might call coming to know one's self before trying to know others. How well one gets to know one's self depends on how far one is willing to go.

 

I have not studied Daoist texts, but my belief is that all spiritual maters have advocated withdrawal from society. 

 

Being in the world, but not of it, does not mean one hides one's self away from the world in the physical sense. Indeed this would be missing out on many opportunities for refinement. It is the very challenges that life brings to us which allow us to overcome blockages and leaks in our energies, showing us where we need to heal and become whole.

 

Liu Yiming speaks on this here and in other places:

 

47. Barrier of emptiness 着空关

If seeking only to achieve emptiness in a secluded place in deep mountains, far away from society and people, abandoning family and children, and thinking that oneself is higher than the others, then one can easily fall in the trap of emptiness. Real emptiness is not empty.

 

Zhuangzi speaks on Walking Two Roads, where one manages an internal dynamic that is of an entirely different scope from others one might encounter in the world. If one tries to demonstrate powers, showcasing this difference in scope, it is like installing a siphon, draining one into the other so that equilibrium will be achieved.

 

Normal people develop many blockages and siphons, with the patterns they learn to relate to their environment and each other through. Codependency is a common example. In becoming a whole person, one dissolves the blockages and seals the leaks. Sharing with others is fine - one is one with all after all. And yet one allows the internal to be different from the demands and expectations of the external. Understanding the nature of the external elements one encounters, one is able to harmoniously flow with them without causing them to attach to one. Just like a large tree is able to grow old and strong by being of no use to any carpenter, a sage may dress in rags and show the appearance of being of little value, despite being of great radiance, and so on.

 

Withdrawal and engagement are a pair that is applied to every situation together. It's not like you constantly want to abstain from one thing in order to engage in another. You can think like that if you want but that is not the main point.

 

The idea is to be able to see clearly in every situation (hence the refinement of self, such that you become more equipped to do this) and know the right timing of when to engage and withdraw. Engage when it's the right time, and withdraw when nothing more is to be done. This is important because it happens allllllllll the time in every situation.

 

The key is seeing, which is an embodied thing which is learned over time. Intellectual understanding is not required. When you see clearer you tend to make smarter choices. When you can explain something but can't see clearly then you often make dumb choices.

 

I think simplification can go a long way to developing clarity. In this way spending more time in nature is helpful, though one does not need to live entirely in nature. And in this way withdrawing from social engagements can be helpful, though one need not withdraw from all engagements.

 

It is absolutely detrimental to go against ones nature - it only brings suffering and imbalance trying to do so.  ~ Netero

 

We all need to discover our own natural balance. This can be difficult as there is much habit-momentum developed. The things we've done day-to-day, month-to-month, year-to-year, have an established momentum. Being able to see through this momentum can also bring us clarity and help us identify what parts of it belong to our true nature.

 

In stillness, with the emotions settled and at peace, one can wander the world in a state of calm. Bearded Dragon's post recalled something I remember from a text.

 

It is common for one's yang to be at the tip of the tongue, always ready to engage. When one brings one's yang more deeply within one's center, and greets the world with yin, it is like hexagram 11, tranquility. And yet, even though one's yang is withdrawn, as soon as one needs to share something with the world, there is a spark and the yang emerges and then withdraws again. It is a dance, a balance.

 

Well, this isn't entirely true, is it? A large chunk of the DDJ, for example, is dedicated to advising a political ruler how best to rule. Hard to do without engaging.

 

 

37

衜恆亡爲也                                The Way is effortless;

侯王能支之                                A ruler can lean on it,

而萬勿將自爲爲而欲作              And life will take care of itself;

                      將貞之以亡名之樸     Preserve purity with an unnamed piece of wood;

   夫亦將智                                 If a man knows this,

               智足以朿萬勿將自定        He knows enough to make life steady itself

[Michael Sternbach]

In Zen Buddhism, there is a story of a recluse finding enlightenment on a mountain top, then returning to the suffering people on "the market place". If you look around among the hermits and avatars of renown, even among the shamans of various cultures, you find this same pattern over and over again.

 

Bottom line: There are times for withdrawal, and there are times for engagement. The sage is not limited by a codex of sage-like behaviour but will always follow what they feel is right for them here and now.

[dust]

 

37

衜恆亡爲也                                The Way is effortless;

侯王能支之                                A ruler can lean on it,

而萬勿將自爲爲而欲作              And life will take care of itself;

                      將貞之以亡名之樸     Preserve purity with an unnamed piece of wood;

   夫亦將智                                 If a man knows this,

               智足以朿萬勿將自定        He knows enough to make life steady itself

 

 

You dare use my own spells translation against me??     (paraphrasing Severus Snape)

 

Well played. Though I maintain what I think I've said somewhere before, which is that however effortlessly a king/ruler is able to rule, he is still a king/ruler -- he must be doing something, engaging somehow.

 

Someone living alone in a cave wearing a crown is likely insane...

[PLB]

Sometimes engagement is not engagement. Sometimes withdrawal is not withdrawal. People do all kinds of strange things and it is your responsibility to sort it out and try to act or not act on the basis of your observations.

Since so much is dependent upon what is seen and heard, what is seen and heard?

What am I watching and what have I heard?
The poverty of action is not a reflection upon the power of action. It is about the limits of perception and communication.