Hun, Po, Ming, An and Hua Jing

[dwai]

was reading a book by Willard j lamb on Hua Jing. What he was describing was a lot like what my teacher teaches (albeit he doesn't use the Chinese terminology). Anyone care to share their thoughts on Hun, Po wrt to yi and Xin?

 

Also about Hua jing itself?

 

Thanks

 

Dwai

[opendao]

was reading a book by Willard j lamb on Hua Jing. What he was describing was a lot like what my teacher teaches (albeit he doesn't use the Chinese terminology). Anyone care to share their thoughts on Hun, Po wrt to yi and Xin?

 

Also about Hua jing itself?

 

can you share some quotes from the book where Hun, Po, Yi and Xin are connected? 

[Daeluin]

The obvious connection is through the five phases.

 

hun and po are commonly associated with wood and metal.

 

In the 10 Celestial Stems:

 

yi (乙) = yin wood

xin (辛) = yin metal

 

More context would be nice too.

[dwai]

The obvious connection is through the five phases.

 

hun and po are commonly associated with wood and metal.

 

In the 10 Celestial Stems:

 

yi (乙) = yin wood

xin (辛) = yin metal

 

More context would be nice too.

He talks about how hua jing is essentially the effortless power of taiji and how Po is the ancient mind that we need to switch to, in order to "ride" the hua Jing. But if we are fully in po state, it is outside volition. So the Hun mind is needed to be trained so it can co-exist with Po mind, thereby allowing us to tap into hua jing. Yi and Xin fall in the realm of Hun.

[Daeluin]

Thank you for the description. That also resonates with my experience, and this sounds like something I'd like to read.

 

Does he go into any more detail with the other celestial stems, or just yi and xin?

 

I started studying BaZi last year, and was quite pleased when principles used in Chinese Astrology started shining through in daoist neidan classics. I gather at least some of this alchemical terminology emerged "first" in the cantong qi, which heavily integrates cosmological cycles with the alchemical work. It is nice to hear of a modern work in english using this vocabulary.

[dwai]

Thank you for the description. That also resonates with my experience, and this sounds like something I'd like to read.

 

Does he go into any more detail with the other celestial stems, or just yi and xin?

 

I started studying BaZi last year, and was quite pleased when principles used in Chinese Astrology started shining through in daoist neidan classics. I gather at least some of this alchemical terminology emerged "first" in the cantong qi, which heavily integrates cosmological cycles with the alchemical work. It is nice to hear of a modern work in english using this vocabulary.

He goes into details on cultivation and how to train the hun to coexist with Po. He is descriptive of certain experiences he had wrt hua jing which seems to confirm the yogic lotus analogy of the chakras.

 

He also seems to emphasize candle flame practice to train fajin.

[GreytoWhite]

Paging Kevin Wallbridge.

[Taoist Texts]

He goes into details on cultivation and how to train the hun to coexist with Po. He is descriptive of certain experiences he had wrt hua jing which seems to confirm the yogic lotus analogy of the chakras.

 

He also seems to emphasize candle flame practice to train fajin.

Its all pure fantasy of his own invention with some chinese words that he does not understand thrown in.

 

Edited January 19, 2016 by Taoist Texts

[dwai]

Its all pure fantasy of his own invention with some chinese words that he does not understand thrown in.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FAkJrISVlo

He claims to be an indoor student to the old yang style. Any evidence that he is making this stuff up?

 

Agreed I found the candle flame stuff questionable myself...but he seems to be saying some interesting things in terms of concepts (admittedly stuff id not heard before)...

[Taoist Texts]

He claims to be an indoor student to the old yang style.

 

He might have been that whatever that is. As to why the secrets never leave the family see here

http://thedaobums.com/topic/39346-misconceptions-of-qigong-neidan-alchemy/?p=647602

 

 

Any evidence that he is making this stuff up?

Well you see,

 

first, in traditional paradigm Hun or Po never function alone while a person is alive. "the Hun mind is needed to be trained so it can co-exist with Po mind' is wrong since coexisting is what they do without any training. While neidan does speak about mixing Hun and Po it has a totally diff implication from coexisting.

 

Second, as opposed to a parlor trick with a candle, real fajin looks like this

 

 

he can not demonstrate that, otherwise he would.

 

Finally, this is vicariously embarrassing

 

 

Agreed I found the candle flame stuff questionable myself...but he seems to be saying some interesting things in terms of concepts (admittedly stuff id not heard before)...

I love a tall mystical yarn too, there is nothing wrong with fantasies per se.

[gatito]

The Body Strike

 

The Body Strike means to approach the enemy through a gap in his guard. The spirit is to strike him with your body. Turn your face a little aside and strike the enemy's breast with your left shoulder thrust out. Approach with the spirit of bouncing the enemy away, striking as strongly as possible in time with your breathing. If you achieve this method of closing with the enemy, you will be able to knock him ten or twenty feet away. It is possible to strike the enemy until he is dead. Train well.

 

The Water Book

Go Rin No Sho

Musashi Miyamoto

Trans: Victor Harris

[dwai]

He might have been that whatever that is. As to why the secrets never leave the family see here

http://thedaobums.com/topic/39346-misconceptions-of-qigong-neidan-alchemy/?p=647602

 

 

Well you see,

 

first, in traditional paradigm Hun or Po never function alone while a person is alive. "the Hun mind is needed to be trained so it can co-exist with Po mind' is wrong since coexisting is what they do without any training. While neidan does speak about mixing Hun and Po it has a totally diff implication from coexisting.

 

Second, as opposed to a parlor trick with a candle, real fajin looks like this

 

 

he can not demonstrate that, otherwise he would.

 

Finally, this is vicariously embarrassing

 

 

I love a tall mystical yarn too, there is nothing wrong with fantasies per se.

 

I know what real Fa Jin is. I have been on the receiving end of it quite a few times. However, it is also possible to train fa jin without having a partner and we do that (it also cleanses our channels when we do so). 

 

I looked through some of his videos and noticed that he does some drills that are similar to our (temple style) channel cleansing drills.

Is there anyone here on TTB who has had a personal interaction with this guy (i.e. Willard J Lamb)? I think touching hands is the best way to know whether someone is full of shit or there's something to them. I'll ask on the FB Internal Arts Journey forum as well...

[dwai]

I know what real Fa Jin is. I have been on the receiving end of it quite a few times. However, it is also possible to train fa jin without having a partner and we do that (it also cleanses our channels when we do so). 

 

I looked through some of his videos and noticed that he does some drills that are similar to our (temple style) channel cleansing drills.

Is there anyone here on TTB who has had a personal interaction with this guy (i.e. Willard J Lamb)? I think touching hands is the best way to know whether someone is full of shit or there's something to them. I'll ask on the FB Internal Arts Journey forum as well...

I got this in a response from a fellow traveller on FB. https://wulinmingshi.wordpress.com/2009/09/04/wang-jiwu-on-hidden-power/

 

Interesting. Since I've not done Xingyi, I have not encountered these terms. I can see the progression applicable to taiji too. As we refine further and further, the forces of taiji become more and more mysterious and hidden. My Sifu can launch people several hundred pounds heavier than himself across tens of feet at a time with just his two finger tips. 

[dwai]

interesting that this seems to indicate almost opposite of what the author suggests -- http://taoism.about.com/od/buddhism/a/Hun-Po.htm

[Daeluin]

interesting that this seems to indicate almost opposite of what the author suggests -- http://taoism.about.com/od/buddhism/a/Hun-Po.htm

 

So first of all, I'm not sure what opposites you are referring to, but...

 

Just be sure you aren't confusing the yi (意) of the five shen/spirits, which represents earth/spleen, with the yi (乙) of the ten celestial stems, which represents yin wood and the eastern direction/phenomena. When yi and xin are used together like this, I'd relate them to the celestial stems.

 

I've only read of the five shen/spirits as related to the yin organs, and these are emphasized in various texts on internal alchemy, like Wang Liping's manual for example. As hun and po are often associated with wood and metal, and with the liver (yin wood) and the lungs (yin metal), respectively, it does seem logical to associate them with yi (yin wood) and xin (yin metal).

 

Chung said:

 

The dragon is yang in nature. It flies in the sky, and when it roars, clouds are born and the ten thousand things are moistened. Its primal form is the green dragon, its directions are jia and yi [east]; its element is wood, its season is spring; and in the ways of humanity , it represents benevolence. Its trigram is zhen, and in the body it is the liver. The tiger is yin in nature. It runs on the ground, and when it cries, winds blow in the mountains and all the insects are subdued. Its primal form is the white tiger; its directions are geng and xin [west]; its element is metal; its season is autumn; and in the ways of humanity, it represents integrity and honor. Its trigram is dui, and in the body it is the lungs.

 

I recommend continuing to read this section from Zhong Lu Chuan Dao Ji, in the Dragon Tiger chapter, here translated by Eva Wong in The Tao of Health, Longevity, and Immortality, The Teachings of Chung and Lu. There is also a translation in Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu, at the end, for comparison.

 

Not having the book in question I cannot really comment, but if it lines up with the rest of the quote from Zhong Lu Chuan Dao Ji in principle, then just follow your heart.

[dwai]

So first of all, I'm not sure what opposites you are referring to, but...

 

Just be sure you aren't confusing the yi (意) of the five shen/spirits, which represents earth/spleen, with the yi (乙) of the ten celestial stems, which represents yin wood and the eastern direction/phenomena. When yi and xin are used together like this, I'd relate them to the celestial stems.

I was referring to the author's usage of hun and po as compared with the article link I had provided.

[GreytoWhite]

懂劲的三个阶段 明劲、暗劲、化劲。

　　1．明劲 要做到劲整形齐，舒展其力，使劲力通、透、穿、贴、松、悍、合、坚，成为抖绝劲、爆炸劲，一绝无有不绝。在平时练习基本拳法时，手磨外五行、肘磨内五行，进退如曲腿蹚泥，又如“泥犁行”，此谓明劲阶段。

　　2．暗劲 在掌握明劲阶段的基础上，再进一步，使劲含而不露、蓄而不发，蓄意蓄劲、待而不发，以尽《山西六合心意拳》以静制动、后发制人之妙用。此谓“履薄冰”暗劲阶段。

　　3．化劲 此谓《山西六合心意拳》的高级阶段。在掌握明劲、暗劲的基础上，在与人较技中，切记舍己从人，沾连粘随；处处虚无不着力，整体浑元不弹簧，日久功深达到人不知我，我独知人，一触即发、发则必中之高超之境。应敌犹如“水中游”，此谓化劲阶段。

{Understanding Xingyiquan's 3 stages (jieduan) of Ming Jin, An JIn, and Hua Jin.}

{1 - Ming (Clear to see) Jin - The strength and form must be strong, precise, and clear. Extend outward with force. When putting out force it must pass through, penetrate, pierce, connect, be pliant, ferocious, round, firm, have a shaking cutting strength, and deliver explosive force. Practice and drill the hand techniques developing the external 5-Elements and the elbows to develop the internal 5-Elements. Advancing and retreating with bent legs as if wading through mud (tang ni) like "walking while plowing through mud". This is the stage of Ming JIn.}

{2- An (hidden) JIn - You must have already grasped and have a strong foundation in the Mingjin stage then you can start on the second stage. Now when using strength you contain it and don't reveal it on the outside. Store up (xu) but don't emit (fa). Deliberately store up your Jin. The power to 'fa' emit is held back but not released, to the opponent this feels very powerful and strange and then you can emit. This is called "Treading on thin Ice". This is the stage of Anjin.}

{3- Hua (transforming) Jin - This is considered the highest stage of practice. You must have already grasped the stages of Mingjin and Anjin and have a very strong foundation in them. You should have a lot of experience in fighting as you must know that this stage is 'Sheji Cong Ren' [same as Taijiquan] Give up yourself and comply with the opponent. Use 'Zhan, Lian, Nian, and Sui' (sticky, link, adhering, and complying). Everywhere you need to be empty and not exerting strength. The whole body must be blending and smooth (hunyuan) and not starting and stopping. The skill of 'The opponent does not know me, I alone know the opponent.' At any time, place, or moment you can emit (fa) but only emitting force at the precise moment. This is the Hua Jing stage.}

[GreytoWhite]

Here is a good bit of information about the Five Shens and how Hun and Po apply to that model in internal alchemy.

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=21458

[Daeluin]

I was referring to the author's usage of hun and po as compared with the article link I had provided.

 

OK, so I'm guessing you mean the differences between "training hun to coexist with po":

 

He goes into details on cultivation and how to train the hun to coexist with Po. He is descriptive of certain experiences he had wrt hua jing which seems to confirm the yogic lotus analogy of the chakras.

 

And the article's description of training the po to transform into hun:

 

The resolution of the moving/staying polarity, I would suggest, is basically equivalent -- or at least opens the way for -- the transcending of what Master Hu refers to as the tangible-consciousness/formless-consciousness polarity; and the absorption of the more densely-vibrating Po into the more subtle Hun.

 

Or, to put it another way: the corporeal Po serves the ethereal Hun -- in Taoist cultivation -- to the extent that mind’s appearances become self-aware, i.e. conscious of their source & destination in/as the Hun -- like waves becoming conscious of their essential nature as water.

 

My first sense is that these substances are in a type of polarity, and that one should not dominate the other, but a balance should be achieved. In normal cultural conditions these days it is likely that the po does dominate, and given that the po is more substantive and the hun easily escapes, many people end up dominated by po and unable to embody the hun.

 

I recommend studying hexagrams 54 and 17 to understand this dynamic. The hun-po, metal-wood dynamic is expressed here through the trigrams of thunder (wood) and lake (metal). Liu Yiming, in the Taoist I Ching (tl Cleary) points out that when the hun and the po are in a separating dance, the hun tends to go off on its own, and then the po tends to control it via emotional demands, always interfering with the potential freedom of the hun. This is described in hexagram 54. In hexagram 17, the hun is brought to focus on the po, thus the two integrate back into each other. The po softens, becomes lighter, and more of the hun is able to embody as the ego is dissolved.

 

So while the hun often needs to be increased, without the po it would simply fly away. When the hun is able to focus within, with the help of the yi-intention, the emotional insecurities of the po can be answered, softening its hardened patterns and allowing more room for the hun to embody.

 

Same concept of cleaning one's home. If it is dirty all the time one might discover they don't want to spend much time there. But after doing the work to clean it, it becomes much brighter. So we might say the way to increase the hun is to remind the blissful-freedom seeking nature of the hun that sometimes work must be done in order to shape an environment one will feel free to exist inside of.

[dwai]

OK, so I'm guessing you mean the differences between "training hun to coexist with po":

 

 

And the article's description of training the po to transform into hun:

 

 

My first sense is that these substances are in a type of polarity, and that one should not dominate the other, but a balance should be achieved. In normal cultural conditions these days it is likely that the po does dominate, and given that the po is more substantive and the hun easily escapes, many people end up dominated by po and unable to embody the hun.

 

I recommend studying hexagrams 54 and 17 to understand this dynamic. The hun-po, metal-wood dynamic is expressed here through the trigrams of thunder (wood) and lake (metal). Liu Yiming, in the Taoist I Ching (tl Cleary) points out that when the hun and the po are in a separating dance, the hun tends to go off on its own, and then the po tends to control it via emotional demands, always interfering with the potential freedom of the hun. This is described in hexagram 54. In hexagram 17, the hun is brought to focus on the po, thus the two integrate back into each other. The po softens, becomes lighter, and more of the hun is able to embody as the ego is dissolved.

 

So while the hun often needs to be increased, without the po it would simply fly away. When the hun is able to focus within, with the help of the yi-intention, the emotional insecurities of the po can be answered, softening its hardened patterns and allowing more room for the hun to embody.

 

Same concept of cleaning one's home. If it is dirty all the time one might discover they don't want to spend much time there. But after doing the work to clean it, it becomes much brighter. So we might say the way to increase the hun is to remind the blissful-freedom seeking nature of the hun that sometimes work must be done in order to shape an environment one will feel free to exist inside of.

Thanks for sharing this. To be fair, it is more from an intellectual PoV that I am trying to understand this. My actual training and learning is directly experiential and my teacher transmits the knowledge non-verbally for the most part. It is strange that one day in the class I will be thinking of something and my teacher answers that after the class. Or he says "energetically, such and such a thing will happen" and later that week when I'm practicing by myself at home, I experience the said phenomenon.

[Daeluin]

Thanks for sharing this. To be fair, it is more from an intellectual PoV that I am trying to understand this. My actual training and learning is directly experiential and my teacher transmits the knowledge non-verbally for the most part. It is strange that one day in the class I will be thinking of something and my teacher answers that after the class. Or he says "energetically, such and such a thing will happen" and later that week when I'm practicing by myself at home, I experience the said phenomenon.

 

Yes, I've experienced much in this way. Unfortunately I was receiving pieces of things that I only mentally understood on a surface level. The past two years studying the principles found in the classics have been like learning a language that can help decode the transmission. Naturally the human mind shouldn't be controlling these things, but I think it can be helpful if the human mind is better tapped into awareness of proper timings within change.

 

My sense is that part of the transmission comes from the lineage, and the lineage is connected to the classics.

 

Liu Yiming has a bit on thoroughly investigating principle, and he also talks about this in his commentary on hexagram 21. My sense is that one needs to understand before one can forget, so as to avoid making mistakes. Similar to how one may more easily find the center of the circle after the circle is fully drawn.

 

Also I recommend reading David Twickens actual articles on hun and po in acupuncture today, rather than just the article about the articles.

http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=28516

http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=28537

 

In particular it makes more sense to me that the associations of the hun and po to the east and west directions in the magic square (lo shu) are where the 3 and 7 come from, rather than the 7 orifices.

[dwai]

Yes, I've experienced much in this way. Unfortunately I was receiving pieces of things that I only mentally understood on a surface level. The past two years studying the principles found in the classics have been like learning a language that can help decode the transmission. Naturally the human mind shouldn't be controlling these things, but I think it can be helpful if the human mind is better tapped into awareness of proper timings within change.

 

My sense is that part of the transmission comes from the lineage, and the lineage is connected to the classics.

 

Liu Yiming has a bit on thoroughly investigating principle, and he also talks about this in his commentary on hexagram 21. My sense is that one needs to understand before one can forget, so as to avoid making mistakes. Similar to how one may more easily find the center of the circle after the circle is fully drawn.

 

Also I recommend reading David Twickens actual articles on hun and po in acupuncture today, rather than just the article about the articles.

http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=28516

http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=28537

 

In particular it makes more sense to me that the associations of the hun and po to the east and west directions in the magic square (lo shu) are where the 3 and 7 come from, rather than the 7 orifices.

Loved the quotes from Liu Yiming. Thanks for sharing...I will go through the other links as well.

 

I've always wondered about my motivation for practicing cultivation/the spiritual arts. To this day I can't pin down what I truly want. It's like the end goal is not important, but rather the process of cultivation is more eminent...(at least at my current state of existence)