gatito Posted January 21, 2016 Hoping that someone (a jīva) can enlighten me...  1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted January 21, 2016 Hoping that someone (a jīva) can enlighten me...  Who transmits? Could be one of many (i'll take them all if I can) --  A more awakened Jiva to a less awakened Jiva. A fully awakened Jiva to a less awakened Jiva Through the effect of past life karma, directly transmitted to the Jiva when the time is right. A sudden awakening purely by the grace of God/Brahman that causes the Jiva to realize Atman. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatito Posted January 21, 2016 Thanks dwai  That's interesting because it's contrary to my own direct experience and begs a number of questions that I may explore further with you (if you've the time to indulge me).  In the interim do you have any specific scriptural references to which I could refer. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted January 21, 2016 Thanks dwai  That's interesting because it's contrary to my own direct experience and begs a number of questions that I may explore further with you (if you've the time to indulge me).  In the interim do you have any specific scriptural references to which I could refer. Hi Gatito,  Do you have any questions specifically around these or my commentary on them in general?  1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatito Posted January 21, 2016 As I said previously: not at the moment dwai. Â At present I'm just asking for any specific scriptual references that might back up your beliefs because all the Hindu scriptures with which I'm familiar run contrary to your assertions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) As I said previously: not at the moment dwai.  At present I'm just asking for any specific scriptual references that might back up your beliefs because all the Hindu scriptures with which I'm familiar run contrary to your assertions. There are detailed discussions around Guru parampara and sampradaya in the Bhagavad Gita. I'll find the relevant section and send you.  Actually Wikipedia has a somewhat decent summary of the same -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru-shishya_tradition  Remember, Hindu tradition doesn't necessarily mean only Advaita Vedantic tradition. Even within the Advaita tradition, the transmission occurs in various ways. Edited January 21, 2016 by dwai 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatito Posted January 21, 2016 No need, just the relevant references is ample. I have my own copy that I prefer to any translation. Â Thank you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatito Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) Actually Wikipedia has a somewhat decent summary of the same -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru-shishya_tradition  Remember, Hindu tradition doesn't necessarily mean only Advaita Vedantic tradition. Even within the Advaita tradition, the transmission occurs in various ways.  Noticed you'd just edited to add the bit that I've quoted.  Looking at the Wikipedia article, that can be explained in Western psychological terms as re-parenting - nothing to do with some sort of mystical "transmission" from another jīva.  I'm extremely familiar with Kashmiri Shaivism (as well as Vedanta) and there's no jīva to jīva "transmission" there either.  Primary (sanskrit) sources are my interest. Edited January 21, 2016 by gatito Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted January 21, 2016 Noticed you'd just edited to add the bit that I've quoted.  Looking at the Wikipedia article, that can be explained in Western psychological terms as re-parenting - nothing to do with some sort of mystical "transmission" from another jīva.  I'm extremely familiar with Kashmiri Shaivism (as well as Vedanta) and there's no jīva to jīva "transmission" there either.  Primary (sanskrit) sources are my interest.  Are you familiar with the concept of pramAna? In the astika traditions of Hinduism there are 3 forms of pramAna -  Intuition Testimony of a reliable witness Direct experience When one goes to a Guru, they usually start with testimony of a reliable witness (Guru) and as their education progresses, they can use intuition to point them the way (even give them glimpses ). At some point, by God's grace they are granted direct experience. Not everyone can or does get direct experience. So then it depends on the tradition, lineage and eventually the final authority - prasthana tryayi to be authoritative source of the Truth. So yes, depending on the stage of your learning/development, you will acquire the knowledge from varying sources.  In the old days, in a Gurukula, the Guru might not have been the primary instructor. His senior students would instruct the fresh students. As they progressed, eventually they'd work their way up to getting direct instruction from the Guru.  So, then I ask you...in light of what I just typed out here - Why do you feel there is no Jiva to Jiva transmission? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatito Posted January 21, 2016 I'm entirely familiar with that model already and, without writing an essay, as I've already said several times... because it's my own direct first-hand experience for which I also have ample scriptural corroboration. Â Just double-checking that I haven't overlooked something (i.e. an obscure primary sanskrit scriptural source). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatito Posted January 21, 2016 Are you familiar with the concept of pramAna? In the astika traditions of Hinduism there are 3 forms of pramAna -  Intuition Testimony of a reliable witness Direct experience When one goes to a Guru, they usually start with testimony of a reliable witness (Guru) and as their education progresses, they can use intuition to point them the way (even give them glimpses ). At some point, by God's grace they are granted direct experience. Not everyone can or does get direct experience. So then it depends on the tradition, lineage and eventually the final authority - prasthana tryayi to be authoritative source of the Truth. So yes, depending on the stage of your learning/development, you will acquire the knowledge from varying sources.  In the old days, in a Gurukula, the Guru might not have been the primary instructor. His senior students would instruct the fresh students. As they progressed, eventually they'd work their way up to getting direct instruction from the Guru.  So, then I ask you...in light of what I just typed out here - Why do you feel there is no Jiva to Jiva transmission?  Not by a jīva's grace...  From your own lips...  Is that clear now...? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted January 21, 2016 Not by a jīva's grace...  From your own lips...  Is that clear now...? Ah I see. Misunderstanding. Absolute illumination is from a Jiva's lips (or sometimes silence) but only by God's grace  But often a Jiva has to put effort to even reach a level of worthiness (yogyata) for the Grace. It is at this level, that it could be a Jiva to Jiva transmission. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted January 21, 2016 Who would you both say is a good translation of the the Shiva sutras? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) Who would you both say is a good translation of the the Shiva sutras? Hi jeff,  I'm not particularly knowledgable in the Shiva Sutras or Shaiva Siddhanta etc so I can't comment on it. Edited January 21, 2016 by dwai 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatito Posted January 21, 2016 (edited) Hi jeff,  I'm not particularly knowledgable in the Shiva Sutras or Shaiva Siddhanta etc so I can't comment on it.  Yes, I spotted that a while ago and I'd also noticed that your sanskrit is even worse than your English...  Ah I see. Misunderstanding. Absolute illumination is from a Jiva's lips (or sometimes silence) but only by God's grace  Yes and the misunderstanding is entirely yours. Allow me to clarify by rephrasing this :-  Not by a jīva's grace...  From your own lips...  Is that clear now...?  to this: -  You stated in your own words (i.e. from your own lips) that:-  "At some point, by God's grace" (i.e. as opposed to a jīva's grace) "they are granted direct experience".  In other words, the jīva has nothing to do with any enlightenment...  Is that clear now...?  (BTW you should have spelt God's Grace with a capital G but I won't be pedantic... )   But often a Jiva has to put effort to even reach a level of worthiness (yogyata) for the Grace. It is at this level, that it could be a Jiva to Jiva transmission.  Now, moving on to Grace; another concept that you don't understand.  Grace cannot be earned by a putative jīva-receiver it is by definition a freebie (as well as having nothing to do with any putative jīva-transmitter).  The scriptures phrase it better but then I'm not claiming to be a ऋषि...  Edited January 22, 2016 by gatito 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kar3n Posted January 22, 2016 (BTW you should have spelt God's Grace with a capital G but I won't be pedantic...  )  And, you may have wanted to use the word "spelled" instead of spelt. Spelt is a form of wheat, kind sir, not the past tense of spell. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted January 22, 2016  Yes, I spotted that a while ago and I'd also noticed that your sanskrit is even worse than your English...   Yes and the misunderstanding is entirely yours. Allow me to clarify by rephrasing this :-   to this: -  You stated in your own words (i.e. from your own lips) that:-  "At some point, by God's grace" (i.e. as opposed to a jīva's grace) "they are granted direct experience".  In other words, the jīva has nothing to do with any enlightenment...  Is that clear now...?  (BTW you should have spelt God's Grace with a capital G but I won't be pedantic... )   Now, moving on to Grace; another concept that you don't understand.  Grace cannot be earned by a putative jīva-receiver it is by definition a freebie (as well as having nothing to do with any putative jīva-transmitter).  The scriptures phrase it better but then I'm not claiming to be a ऋषि...  I enjoyed that one...thank you for your vote of confidence...   Oh how you've shown me and everyone else how much you know...how knowledgeable you are...how little I know.  I have more important things to do than pander to an ego-maniac's attempts at self-aggrandizement.  2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3bob Posted January 22, 2016 without one's hand reaching out it would be difficult or even forced for another to take theirs, 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) I would be interested if everyone thought that this quote may directly apply to the transmission question... Â Â Shiva sutra 3.29 Â yo'vipastho jnahetusca The one who rules the wheel of energies becomes the cause of inserting knowledge in others. Â Seems to me like the text would directly fit and relate to transmission with the energy and inserting knowledge. Any thoughts? Edited January 22, 2016 by Jeff Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatito Posted January 22, 2016 ******* O/P Notice Begins *******See Owner Permissionsdwai is permanently banned from this thread for post # 17Jonesboy and rainbowvein are also permanently banned from this thread for "thanking" dwai for post # 17All posting in this thread is now suspended for 7 days.The thread has been left unlocked so that anyone who has already contributed can choose to edit or delete their existing posts.******* O/P Notice Ends ******* 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
