Shiva sutras - And the relative approach...

[Jeff]

Is the sutra really talking about introducing new knowledge to a person or removing the obstructions that hide the knowledge that was always there through the use of transmission or abilities?

 

I would think it is really a matter of perspective. In KS, one first realizes Jiva and then expands to Siva, so there is sort of the concept of building (or adding). As, compared to other traditions that talk about clearing away obstructions to realize that was always really there. But directly to your point Abhinavagupta in The Triadic Heart of Sutra states...

 

"The initiated one knows this supreme knowledge characterized by the Heart and which is given by the divinities of Bhairava who are within the Heart and who bring escape from the vibration of manifestation which leads to an obscuring of the Self, and are rather directed towards the supreme vibration which consists of the opening of the Self. These same divinities destroy the chief bond which is the state of contraction."

 

So your clearing away of obstructions would seem to directly go with destroying the bonds which cause the "state of contraction".

 

 

[3bob]

so Jeff when are you going to give up seeming to co-opt these teachings?

Edited January 23, 2016 by 3bob

[Jeff]

so Jeff when are going to give up seeming to co-opt these teachings?

 

If you have some different interpretations of the Shiva sutras or Abhinavagupta, then why not simply share them?

 

My purpose in this thread was not to co-opt anything. Just the hope for intelligent discourse on such topics that some members might find interesting.

 

[Jeff]

Based on my experiences with my teacher, we are charged up and cleansed of junk in our system just by being in the presence of a master.

Yes they can transmit knowledge in a completely non-verbal way. My teacher teaches tai chi and Daoist cultivation but is a follower And devotee of Shri satya Sai baba. It might seem strange to many, but he says at high levels of development it's all just a flow of energy and emptiness.

 

I would really like to meet him some day. Sounds like a very wise and profound teacher.

[Jeff]

For completeness, I thought that I would add the other two sections of the Shiva sutras. One that you might find interesting is 2.6...

 

 

2.1. cittaṁ mantraḥ

 

Mind is mantra.

 

2.2. prayatnaḥ sādhakaḥ

 

(For such a yogī) pauseless effort brings about his attainment of God consciousness.

 

2.3. vidyāśarīrasattā mantrarahasyam

 

The secret essence of mantra is establishment in the body of the knowledge of oneness.

 

2.4. garbhe cittavikaso’viśiṣṭa vidyāsvapnaḥ

 

When a yogī’s mind is satisfied with the expansive body of illusion then he falls in the world of differentiated perceptions and his knowledge of being is just like that of ordinary living beings.

 

2.5. vidyāsamutthāne svābhāvike khecarī śivāvasthā

 

The pure knowledge of God consciousness effortlessly rises and this state of Śiva is realized as one with the state of khecarī.

 

2.6. gururupāyaḥ

 

The master (guru) is the means.

 

2.7. mātṛikācakrasambodhaḥ

 

(The disciple attains) the knowledge of the wheel of the hidden mother (Mātṛikācakra).

 

2.8. śarīraṁ haviḥ

 

The establishment of I consciousness on the body becomes an offering in the fire of God consciousness.

 

2.9. jñānamannam

 

(For such a yogī) differentiated perception is his food, or knowledge of his own nature is his food.

 

2.10. vidyāsaṁhāre tadutthasvapnadarśanam

 

Although he is established in God consciousness in samādhi, yet not being able to maintain awareness, after a short time he enters into the dreaming state.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Jeff

[Jeff]

Reported to have been gifted by God to the sage Vasagupta for the upliftment of human kind, is considered to be one of Kashmir Shaivism's most important scriptures.

 

 

1.01. caitanyamātmā

 

Supreme consciousness is the reality of everything.

 

1.02. jñānaṁ bandhaḥ

 

Knowing differentiatedly is bondage and not knowing undifferentiatedly is bondage.

 

1.03. yonivargaḥ kalāśarīram

 

Māyīyamala and kārmamala are also bondage.

 

1.04. jñānādhiṣṭhānam matṛikā

 

The Universal Mother commands this triple knowledge.

 

1.05. udyamo bhairavaḥ

 

That effort, the flashing forth of active awareness that instantaneously makes universal consciousness shine, is Bhairava.

 

1.06. śaktiḥcakrasaṁdhāne viśvasaṁhāraḥ

 

By establishing and meditating on the wheel of energies the differentiated universe comes to an end.

 

1.07. jāgratsvapnasuṣuptabhede turyābhogasaṁbhavaḥ

 

Such a heroic yogi experiences the expansive state of turya in the differentiated states of waking, dreaming and deep sleep.

 

1.08. jñānam jāgrat

 

External organic knowledge constitutes the waking state.

 

1.09. svapno vikalpāḥ

 

Internal perceptions and thoughts comprise the dreaming state.

 

1.10. aviveko māyāsauṣuptam

 

Forgetfulness and the negation of awareness is the dreamless state or māyā.

 

1.11. tritayabhoktā vīreśaḥ

 

The one who enjoys the oneness of the three states, waking, dreaming and deep sleep in turīya becomes the master of all organic energies.

 

1.12. vismayo yogabhūmikāḥ

 

The predominant sign of such a yogī is joy filled amazement.

 

1.13. icchā śaktirūmā kumāri

 

His will is the energy of Lord Śiva and it is called umā and kumāri, or for such a yogī his will is one with the energy of Lord Śiva, unobstructable, completely independent, always given to play.

 

1.14. dṛiśyaṁ śarīram

 

This entire perceived world is his own self, or 
His own body is just like an object to him.

 

1.15. hṛidaye cittasaṁghaṭṭād dṛiśyasvāpadarśanam

 

When his thoughts are diverted to the center of God consciousness then he feels the existence of God con- sciousness in oneness in the objective world and in the world of negation.

 

1.16. śuddha-tattva-saṁdhānādvā’paśuśaktiḥ

 

Or by aiming at the pure element of Śiva he possesses Śiva’s unlimited energy.

 

1.17. vitarka ātmajñānam

 

Any inference of such a yogī is knowledge of his own real self.

 

1.18. lokānandaḥ samādhisukham

 

The joy of his mystical trance (samādhi) is bliss for the whole universe.

 

1.19. śaktisandhāne śarīrotpattiḥ

 

By infusing his energy of will the embodiment of that which is willed occurs at once.

 

1.20. bhūtasaṁdhāna-bhūtapṛithaktva-
viśvasaṁghaṭṭāḥ

 

By the greatness of this achievement of the energy of will the yogī can focus his awareness and heal the sick and suffering, separate elements from his body and be free from the limitations of space and time.

 

1.21. śuddhavidyodyāccakreśatva-siddhiḥ

 

(When this yogī does not desire limited powers and is eager to attain the knowledge of universal being then) . . . pure knowledge rises and by that knowledge he becomes the master of the universal wheel.

 

1.22. mahāhṛidānusaṁdhānān mantravīryānubhavaḥ

 

By the attentive continuity of meditation on the great ocean of consciousness the power of supreme I is attained.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Jeff

[dwai]

Reported to have been gifted by God to the sage Vasagupta for the upliftment of human kind, is considered to be one of Kashmir Shaivism's most important scriptures.

 

 

1.01. caitanyamātmā

 

Supreme consciousness is the reality of everything.

 

1.02. jñānaṁ bandhaḥ

 

Knowing differentiatedly is bondage and not knowing undifferentiatedly is bondage.

 

1.03. yonivargaḥ kalāśarīram

 

Māyīyamala and kārmamala are also bondage.

 

1.04. jñānādhiṣṭhānam matṛikā

 

The Universal Mother commands this triple knowledge.

 

1.05. udyamo bhairavaḥ

 

That effort, the flashing forth of active awareness that instantaneously makes universal consciousness shine, is Bhairava.

 

1.06. śaktiḥcakrasaṁdhāne viśvasaṁhāraḥ

 

By establishing and meditating on the wheel of energies the differentiated universe comes to an end.

 

1.07. jāgratsvapnasuṣuptabhede turyābhogasaṁbhavaḥ

 

Such a heroic yogi experiences the expansive state of turya in the differentiated states of waking, dreaming and deep sleep.

 

1.08. jñānam jāgrat

 

External organic knowledge constitutes the waking state.

 

1.09. svapno vikalpāḥ

 

Internal perceptions and thoughts comprise the dreaming state.

 

1.10. aviveko māyāsauṣuptam

 

Forgetfulness and the negation of awareness is the dreamless state or māyā.

 

1.11. tritayabhoktā vīreśaḥ

 

The one who enjoys the oneness of the three states, waking, dreaming and deep sleep in turīya becomes the master of all organic energies.

 

1.12. vismayo yogabhūmikāḥ

 

The predominant sign of such a yogī is joy filled amazement.

 

1.13. icchā śaktirūmā kumāri

 

His will is the energy of Lord Śiva and it is called umā and kumāri, or for such a yogī his will is one with the energy of Lord Śiva, unobstructable, completely independent, always given to play.

 

1.14. dṛiśyaṁ śarīram

 

This entire perceived world is his own self, or 
His own body is just like an object to him.

 

1.15. hṛidaye cittasaṁghaṭṭād dṛiśyasvāpadarśanam

 

When his thoughts are diverted to the center of God consciousness then he feels the existence of God con- sciousness in oneness in the objective world and in the world of negation.

 

1.16. śuddha-tattva-saṁdhānādvā’paśuśaktiḥ

 

Or by aiming at the pure element of Śiva he possesses Śiva’s unlimited energy.

 

1.17. vitarka ātmajñānam

 

Any inference of such a yogī is knowledge of his own real self.

 

1.18. lokānandaḥ samādhisukham

 

The joy of his mystical trance (samādhi) is bliss for the whole universe.

 

1.19. śaktisandhāne śarīrotpattiḥ

 

By infusing his energy of will the embodiment of that which is willed occurs at once.

 

1.20. bhūtasaṁdhāna-bhūtapṛithaktva-
viśvasaṁghaṭṭāḥ

 

By the greatness of this achievement of the energy of will the yogī can focus his awareness and heal the sick and suffering, separate elements from his body and be free from the limitations of space and time.

 

1.21. śuddhavidyodyāccakreśatva-siddhiḥ

 

(When this yogī does not desire limited powers and is eager to attain the knowledge of universal being then) . . . pure knowledge rises and by that knowledge he becomes the master of the universal wheel.

 

1.22. mahāhṛidānusaṁdhānān mantravīryānubhavaḥ

 

By the attentive continuity of meditation on the great ocean of consciousness the power of supreme I is attained.

 

Strange...I came across the Shiva Sutras somewhere yesterday...perhaps in my dream...not sure. The thing with Sutras is that we don't need much commentary if the translation is good...and this is a good translation.

 

Thanks for sharing...

[Jeff]

Strange...I came across the Shiva Sutras somewhere yesterday...perhaps in my dream...not sure. The thing with Sutras is that we don't need much commentary if the translation is good...and this is a good translation.

 

Thanks for sharing...

 

 

Agreed.  The Shiva sutras are also particularly good texts.  Also, translations by true masters make a really big difference.

[Jonesboy]

I think you raise some good points, but I think it is also interesting because the text says that one "becomes like" Siva.  Hence sort of implying that you become kind of another one, rather than just sort ceasing into Siva as other Hindu traditions tend to imply.

Do you mind sharing more about this point?

 

Is this like becoming a Buddha type reference or more like a subset of Siva or ???

[Jeff]

Do you mind sharing more about this point?

Is this like becoming a Buddha type reference or more like a subset of Siva or ???

The framework of the traditions are very different, so I don't know that it makes much sense to try to compare to a Buddha. From my view, the text is pointing to one becoming as Siva/Shiva. This to me is a major point of differentiation of Kashmir Shaivism. Previous traditions sort of implied that one would "cease into" rather that "become as".

[Rishi Das]

Previous traditions sort of implied that one would "cease into" rather that "become as".

 

My understanding is that one doesn't just 'become as' Shiva but instead recognizes oneself as Shiva.

 

Shiva being all in all - all is as Shiva already.

[dwai]

My understanding is that one doesn't just 'become as' Shiva but instead recognizes oneself as Shiva.

 

Shiva being all in all - all is as Shiva already.

Per Kashmir shaivism yes. If you consider from Tamil shaiva siddhanta tradition, Shiva is always separate and supreme from the individual devotee.

[Jeff]

My understanding is that one doesn't just 'become as' Shiva but instead recognizes oneself as Shiva.

 

Shiva being all in all - all is as Shiva already.

I guess the subtle point I am trying to make is that one becomes fully Siva, not just realize a component (or aspect of). In "The Triadic Heart of Siva", Abhinavagupta describes the "ocean of nectar of enlightenment"...

 

"He who by means of this teaching perceives on all sides the universe like a mass of foam in the midst of the ambrosial ocean of consciousness, he is declared to be the one Siva Himself"

 

It goes on in a related passage...

 

"The whole universe is set in your essence within the ocean, within the Heart, in the life-span. Let us win your honeyed wave that is brought to the face of the waters as they flow together."

[Brian]

I am enjoying this thread. Many thanks to all who are contributing.

[Rishi Das]

I guess the subtle point I am trying to make is that one becomes fully Siva, not just realize a component (or aspect of).

 

My only point of contention is with the word 'become'. 

 

One cannot become what is already the case. It then becomes a matter of rediscovering ones true essence, which when full and complete is indeed, Shiva per Kashmir Shaivism.

 

Then, fully embodying oneself as Shiva, one may begin to experience the likes of Abhinavagupta's descriptions.

 

As a practitioner, this was an important distinction that shifted the quality of my relation to life and 'the path'. 

Edited December 10, 2016 by Rishi Das

[Jonesboy]

The framework of the traditions are very different, so I don't know that it makes much sense to try to compare to a Buddha. From my view, the text is pointing to one becoming as Siva/Shiva. This to me is a major point of differentiation of Kashmir Shaivism. Previous traditions sort of implied that one would "cease into" rather that "become as".

What does it mean to become as Siva?

[Jeff]

My only point of contention is with the word 'become'. 

 

One cannot become what is already the case. It then becomes a matter of rediscovering ones true essence, which when full and complete is indeed, Shiva per Kashmir Shaivism.

 

Then, fully embodying oneself as Shiva, one may begin to experience the likes of Abhinavagupta's descriptions.

 

As a practitioner, this was an important distinction that shifted the quality of my relation to life and 'the path'.

 

Abhinavagupta responds...

 

"True, but even though it shines there, it has not truly become a conscious apprehension. Without conscious apprehension, even if a thing exists, it is as if it did not exist..."

 

He goes on to say...

 

"The question is thus appropriate because contentment (enlightenment) is not possible without a conscious realization. Contentment is of two kinds. The first is effected by means of absorption (samavesa) and consists of magical powers. The second is attained by reaching a condition of conscious heart-felt realization, and it is the state of being liberated while still alive."

[Jeff]

What does it mean to become as Siva?

I would suggest that you read the sutras themselves earlier in the thread. But, a few of the interesting ones on your question...

 

3.29. yo’vipastho jñāhetuśca

The one who rules the wheel of energies becomes the cause of inserting knowledge in others.

 

3.30. śvaśaktipracayo’sya viśvam

For him, this universe is the embodiment of his collective energies.

 

3.31. sthitilayau

This universe is the expansion of his energy in objective impressions and in the dissolution of those impressions.

[neti neti]

What does it mean to become as Siva?

 

1.01.  caitanyamātmā

Supreme consciousness is the reality of everything.

1.02.  jñānaṁ bandhaḥ

Knowing differentiatedly is bondage and not knowing undifferentiatedly is bondage.

1.03.  yonivargaḥ kalāśarīram

Māyīyamala and kārmamala are also bondage.

1.04.  jñānādhiṣṭhānam matṛikā

The Universal Mother commands this triple knowledge.

1.05.  udyamo bhairavaḥ

That effort, the flashing forth of active awareness that instantaneously makes universal consciousness shine, is Bhairava.

1.06.  śaktiḥcakrasaṁdhāne viśvasaṁhāraḥ

By establishing and meditating on the wheel of energies the differentiated universe comes to an end.

1.07.  jāgratsvapnasuṣuptabhede turyābhogasaṁbhavaḥ

Such a heroic yogi experiences the expansive state of turya in the differentiated states of waking, dreaming and deep sleep.

1.08.  jñānam jāgrat

External organic knowledge constitutes the waking state.

1.09.  svapno vikalpāḥ

Internal perceptions and thoughts comprise the dreaming state.

1.10.  aviveko māyāsauṣuptam

Forgetfulness and the negation of awareness is the dreamless state or māyā.

1.11.  tritayabhoktā vīreśaḥ

The one who enjoys the oneness of the three states, waking, dreaming and deep sleep in turīya becomes the master of all organic energies.

1.12. vismayo yogabhūmikāḥ

The predominant sign of such a yogī is joy filled amazement.

1.13. icchā śaktirūmā kumāri

His will is the energy of Lord Śiva and it is called umā and kumāri, or for such a yogī his will is one with the energy of Lord Śiva, unobstructable, completely independent, always given to play.

1.14.  dṛiśyaṁ śarīram

This entire perceived world is his own self, or 
His own body is just like an object to him.

1.15.  hṛidaye cittasaṁghaṭṭād dṛiśyasvāpadarśanam

When his thoughts are diverted to the center of God consciousness then he feels the existence of God con- sciousness in oneness in the objective world and in the world of negation.

1.16.  śuddha-tattva-saṁdhānādvā’paśuśaktiḥ

Or by aiming at the pure element of Śiva he possesses Śiva’s unlimited energy.

1.17.  vitarka ātmajñānam

Any inference of such a yogī is knowledge of his own real self.

1.18.  lokānandaḥ samādhisukham

The joy of his mystical trance (samādhi) is bliss for the whole universe.

1.19.  śaktisandhāne śarīrotpattiḥ

By infusing his energy of will the embodiment of that which is willed occurs at once.

1.20. bhūtasaṁdhāna-bhūtapṛithaktva-
viśvasaṁghaṭṭāḥ

By the greatness of this achievement of the energy of will the yogī can focus his awareness and heal the sick and suffering, separate elements from his body and be free from the limitations of space and time.

1.21. śuddhavidyodyāccakreśatva-siddhiḥ

(When this yogī does not desire limited powers and is eager to attain the knowledge of universal being then) . . . pure knowledge rises and by that knowledge he becomes the master of the universal wheel.

1.22. mahāhṛidānusaṁdhānān mantravīryānubhavaḥ

By the attentive continuity of meditation on the great ocean of consciousness the power of supreme I is attained.

Edited December 11, 2016 by neti neti

[neti neti]

"With one-pointed attention, you must feel and perceive that this universe and your body are simultaneously one with God consciousness. Then the rise of that supreme God consciousness takes place." (Vijñāna Bhairava 36)

[Jonesboy]

I found this very interesting in the commentary:

 

3.7. mohajayād anantābhogāt sahajavidyājayaḥ

After conquering the field of illusion (māyā) by destroying its many impressions, one attains the victory of the pure knowledge of consciousness.

 

Quote

When you progress beyond the idea (samkalpa) of good and bad,

of pure and impure, then actually, when you think deeply about

it, there is no difference between individual consciousness and

God consciousness. This is that supreme knowledge where you

find universal God consciousness, the pervasion of Siva

(sivavyapti). There is no greater knowledge (vidya) than this.

(Svacchanda Tantra 5.394)

 

God consciousness is the same as the individual consciousness

in which we are living. Our life is filled with individual

consciousness. A yogi's life is filled with God consciousness. And

a supreme yogi's life is filled with universal God consciousness.

Individual God consciousness is the state of the mind (manah).

God consciousness is the state of self (atma), and that self too is

to be abandoned. Universal God consciousness is the state beyond

mind (unmana).

 

12. The mind (manah) is only the collection of differentiated knowledge

(samkalpa). It does not matter whether it is pure knowledge or impure knowledge.

Both of these exist in limitation, in the cycle of the mind in bondage.