Nirvana is...

[RigdzinTrinley]

A question for whoever reads this

 

There is a very important statement in the scriptures, I'll share that statement and would like to hear what you guys think that statement could mean:

 

"Nirvana is merely the exhaustion of error"

 

In good debate culture scriptural quotations are only used as a last resort to answer or resolve a difficult point - if possible speak from your own understanding and if enlightened from your own experience

[ilumairen]

I don't know scripture, and have been fond of saying I'm not Buddhist. But to me it's been that point of realizing that there is nothing to hold together, nothing that can be done, not a single thought that is going to make this very moment other than what it is, and I've been free. Free to simply be. And in this moment of freedom the taste, texture, and coolness of my glass of apple juice is the taste of 'heaven' itself.

 

[RigdzinTrinley]

I like what you wrote very much

 

I don't know if its nirvanic peace you discovered but from the practice point of view - I very much resonate with you

 

Its important to leave it in its own place (rang sa la bzhag), specially when it is known that the two truths are in union, if there is certainty in that - then letting things be as they are is discovering their primordial purity

 

Jaya guru!!!

[3bob]

I have heard maybe one or two Buddhists here say, "jaya guru" and you are one of them RT. 

 

the quote could be taken as another poison arrow but what the heck, turn it all around and inside out, then one can set it aside.

[Apech]

The burnt out fire.  

[RigdzinTrinley]

What would you say it means 3bob?

 

Other then its OK to say something like "Nirvana is merely the exhaustion of error"

 

You pointed out that one can definitely missunderstand the meaning and become a nihilist (correct?), I think so too - still there is a whole ocean of depths in this statement plus a main point of Buddha dharma that is very important

 

What you think or know this means?

[RigdzinTrinley]

The burnt out fire.

Elaborate please

[Apech]

Elaborate please

 

Sorry ... the twigs and sticks have conflagrated into inert ash.

 

[RigdzinTrinley]

Mu

[gatito]

A question for whoever reads this

 

There is a very important statement in the scriptures, I'll share that statement and would like to hear what you guys think that statement could mean:

 

"Nirvana is merely the exhaustion of error"

 

In good debate culture scriptural quotations are only used as a last resort to answer or resolve a difficult point - if possible speak from your own understanding and if enlightened from your own experience

 

That last sentence should be pinned...!

 

In fact, if you don't mind, I'll take that statement and play with it a bit in my PPF (so that I don't hijack your thead...).

 

_/\_

[RigdzinTrinley]

No copyright anywhere attached

[3bob]

if one really knows what jaya guru means then I think  speculation about Nirvana would be like beating good horse...

[RigdzinTrinley]

Gurumarga is my favourite path otherwise I wouldn't study tantra

 

Yet for sake of clarifying the view between fellow travelers on the journey without goal I felt this might be fun

[doc benway]

"Nirvana is merely the exhaustion of error"

 

I think there is a lot going on in that statement so forgive me if I'm wordy here.

The choice of each word must be critical because it is a pith instruction.

Therefore, it is important to recognize that much also depends on the choice of words by the translator.

 

First, the quote suggests to me that nirvana is already with us. It is always, already right here.

It is so close, we don't see it. It is hidden in plain sight. 

We don't create it, we don't make it happen, we don't do anything to achieve it.

It is more like something is un-done and it is un-covered.

Something (error) is exhausted in order to allow it to be exposed.

 

We don't reach it through repression or suppression, we don't reach it through creation or activity.

It is only when we get out of the way, due to exhaustion, that the magic happens.

So it is not the 'we' who is important in the genesis of nirvana, it is exhausting the 'we' that is necessary.

It seems that it is the very 'we' that obscures nirvana.

 

It is helpful to look at the word exhaustion - it implies running out of something.

What do we run out of?

Perhaps the energy we put into perpetuating the error.

It implies being tired, being fed up, the feeling of having had enough.

The feeling of being dissatisfied with the status quo and being open and courageous enough to allow something new.

What happens when we are exhausted?

We rest.

What happens when something is completely exhausted?

It is no more.

If there is a vessel that once contained whatever it is that is exhausted, that vessel becomes empty.

 

The choice of the word 'merely' is interesting.

Nirvana is generally looked at as such a high achievement or condition and yet the word merely is used.

Merely is not referring to nirvana but rather to the method of reaching it.

Merely is a word that suggests something trivial. It suggests simplicity.

It also has the connotation of solely or exclusively.

Why use that word?

It suggests that there is only one way to nirvana - exhaustion.

It suggests that the path is simple, trivial even. 

It suggests ease.

 

What about the word error?

What is the error that is being referred to?

The error must be something quite comprehensive and fundamental. 

It must touch every aspect of our lives and experience somehow because the alternative, nirvana, is complete and absolute freedom.  The absence of error is truth or perfection. So once again, this implies that truth or perfection is already here, it is already with us. We just need to get out of the way and allow it to be. 

 

So the error must be fundamentally connected to who we are or who we think we are. And when that is allowed to dissipate through the mere presence or action of exhaustion, the perfection that is already present can blossom. In other words and in summary, when the energy that is necessary to sustain the error of who we think we are is depleted through exhaustion, the truth of who we are can become evident and that truth is freedom and perfection.

 

Sorry for all the words but I suspect one could write a book on that simple instruction.

Thank you RT, you are a welcome and valued presence here.

I am glad to have made your acquaintance and I hope you will continue to be a part of this community.

[ilumairen]

Thank you RT, you are a welcome and valued presence here.

I am glad to have made your acquaintance and I hope you will continue to be a part of this community.

 

Ditto.

[already]

"Nirvana is merely the exhaustion of error"

 

I think there is a lot going on in that statement so forgive me if I'm wordy here.

The choice of each word must be critical because it is a pith instruction.

Therefore, it is important to recognize that much also depends on the choice of words by the translator.

 

First, the quote suggests to me that nirvana is already with us. It is always, already right here.

It is so close, we don't see it. It is hidden in plain sight. 

We don't create it, we don't make it happen, we don't do anything to achieve it.

It is more like something is un-done and it is un-covered.

Something (error) is exhausted in order to allow it to be exposed.

 

We don't reach it through repression or suppression, we don't reach it through creation or activity.

It is only when we get out of the way, due to exhaustion, that the magic happens.

So it is not the 'we' who is important in the genesis of nirvana, it is exhausting the 'we' that is necessary.

It seems that it is the very 'we' that obscures nirvana.

 

It is helpful to look at the word exhaustion - it implies running out of something.

What do we run out of?

Perhaps the energy we put into perpetuating the error.

It implies being tired, being fed up, the feeling of having had enough.

The feeling of being dissatisfied with the status quo and being open and courageous enough to allow something new.

What happens when we are exhausted?

We rest.

What happens when something is completely exhausted?

It is no more.

If there is a vessel that once contained whatever it is that is exhausted, that vessel becomes empty.

 

The choice of the word 'merely' is interesting.

Nirvana is generally looked at as such a high achievement or condition and yet the word merely is used.

Merely is not referring to nirvana but rather to the method of reaching it.

Merely is a word that suggests something trivial. It suggests simplicity.

It also has the connotation of solely or exclusively.

Why use that word?

It suggests that there is only one way to nirvana - exhaustion.

It suggests that the path is simple, trivial even. 

It suggests ease.

 

What about the word error?

What is the error that is being referred to?

The error must be something quite comprehensive and fundamental. 

It must touch every aspect of our lives and experience somehow because the alternative, nirvana, is complete and absolute freedom.  The absence of error is truth or perfection. So once again, this implies that truth or perfection is already here, it is already with us. We just need to get out of the way and allow it to be. 

 

So the error must be fundamentally connected to who we are or who we think we are. And when that is allowed to dissipate through the mere presence or action of exhaustion, the perfection that is already present can blossom. In other words and in summary, when the energy that is necessary to sustain the error of who we think we are is depleted through exhaustion, the truth of who we are can become evident and that truth is freedom and perfection.

 

Sorry for all the words but I suspect one could write a book on that simple instruction.

Thank you RT, you are a welcome and valued presence here.

I am glad to have made your acquaintance and I hope you will continue to be a part of this community.

 

Yes, already here.

[Geof Nanto]

"Nirvana is merely the exhaustion of error".....

 

 

So the error must be fundamentally connected to who we are or who we think we are. And when that is allowed to dissipate through the mere presence or action of exhaustion, the perfection that is already present can blossom. In other words and in summary, when the energy that is necessary to sustain the error of who we think we are is depleted through exhaustion, the truth of who we are can become evident and that truth is freedom and perfection.

 

 

Here is a Daoist slant on what that error may be from philosopher John Gray…..

 

Chuang-Tzu is as much a sceptic as a mystic. The sharp dichotomy between appearance and reality that is central in Buddhism is absent, and so is the attempt to transcend the illusions of everyday existence. Chuang-Tzu sees human life as a dream, but he does not seek to awaken from it. In a famous passage he writes of dreaming he was a butterfly, and not knowing on awakening whether he is a human being who has dreamt of being a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he is a human being.

 

Unlike the Buddha, A.C. Graham explains, Chuang-Tzu did not seek to awaken from the dream. He dreamt of dreaming more lucidly: 'Buddhists awaken out of dreaming; ChuangTzu wakes up to dreaming.' Awakening to the truth that life is a dream need not mean turning away from it. It may mean embracing it:

 

If 'Life is a dream' implies that no achievement is lasting, it also implies that life can be charged with the wonder of dreams, that we drift spontaneously through events that follow a logic different from that of everyday intelligence, that fears and regrets are as unreal as hopes and desires.

 

Chuang-Tzu admits no idea of salvation. There is no self and no awakening from the dream of self:

 

When we dream we do not know we are dreaming, and in the middle of a dream we interpret a dream within it; not until we wake do we know that we were dreaming. Only at the ultimate awakening shall we know that this is the ultimate dream.

 

We cannot be rid of illusions. Illusion is our natural condition. Why not accept it?

[Michael Sternbach]

In Zen it is said that Nirvana is right here and now!

 

Or something like that, anyway.

[Seeker of Wisdom]

[...] The sharp dichotomy between appearance and reality that is central in Buddhism is absent [...]

 

I see Buddhism slightly differently.

 

Our experience (Buddhism is about the nature of experience, the nature of things 'in themselves' isn't the point here) is what it is, but we misprocess it out of ignorance and mistake that confused mess for the experience itself. So it's not that there's a reality hidden behind the appearance, it's that we're actively projecting a falsehood onto the reality. 

 

So then the whole idea that awakening is about escaping a dream life doesn't apply. Life is just life - so why not see it as it is? Waking up from the illusions we project means total immersion in the actual experience as it really happens. Which doesn't sound too different from Daoism to me.

 

[...] We cannot be rid of illusions. Illusion is our natural condition. Why not accept it?

 

We can be rid of the illusions of permanence, self, etc. Illusion is a distortion of our natural condition - ignoring some chunks of experience and over-magnifying others results in a distorted picture, and it causes a subtle tension to constantly be running away from our own experience. Constantly blocking out that bit there, shifting that across, a never-ending struggle to create a convincing image of stability with a subject (self) at the center of it all. 

 

So long as we aren't awakened, we're constantly processing experience to try to get it to fit our delusions. Which makes it impossible to truly embrace experience, to truly just be. So much more free, open and simple to see in the seen just the seen, in the heard just the heard, in the sensed just the sensed, in the cognized just the cognized...

[forestofclarity]

There may be a dichotomy in some forms of Buddhism, but this is hardly universal among the non-dual Mahayana forms. As for the dream, I would forward that the dream is the Buddhist metaphor par excellence. In fact, Buddhism has developed dream yoga to further explore the dream like nature of reality. 

 

 

Chuang-Tzu is as much a sceptic as a mystic. The sharp dichotomy between appearance and reality that is central in Buddhism is absent, and so is the attempt to transcend the illusions of everyday existence. Chuang-Tzu sees human life as a dream, but he does not seek to awaken from it. In a famous passage he writes of dreaming he was a butterfly, and not knowing on awakening whether he is a human being who has dreamt of being a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he is a human being.

[Geof Nanto]

@ Seeker of Wisdom

 

This is a Buddhist discussion and consequently I'm wary of intruding. I'm not a Buddhist, though in the distant past I spent many years living in Buddhist meditation centres. I don't consider myself a Daoist either but the perspective of classical Daoism resonates with my own experience. What I'm finding now in my 61st year of life is a sense of contentment such as I've never felt before; a sense of fulfilment. I don't seek perfection or truth. I shy away from such absolute concepts. 

 

For me, I accept that I'll never be free of illusion. What I see as reality will always be a human construction. What you call awakening from illusion I'd call awaking from one level of illusion to another level of illusion. (I apologize if I'm misrepresenting your experience.) What counts as nirvana for me is the deeply felt experience of a profound sense of belonging to this great mystery we call life. It doesn't mean bliss or freedom from pain. Decay and death are an intrinsic part of the cycle of life.

 

That sense of belonging is something I most certainly never had when I was younger. And I know from experience it's not something to be taken for granted. I lose it when I stray from what's meaningful for me; when I stray from the authentic. And what is authentic for me is something that continues to evolve. I continue to learn.

[Brian]

 

Ditto.

Me, too.

[RigdzinTrinley]

Me, too.

Thank you its nice to get to know you all as well

[RigdzinTrinley]

 

 

The choice of the word 'merely' is interesting.

Nirvana is generally looked at as such a high achievement or condition and yet the word merely is used.

Merely is not referring to nirvana but rather to the method of reaching it.

Merely is a word that suggests something trivial. It suggests simplicity.

It also has the connotation of solely or exclusively.

Why use that word?

It suggests that there is only one way to nirvana - exhaustion.

It suggests that the path is simple, trivial even.

It suggests ease.

 

I like what you wrote over all, you made some very good points I think

 

The way you explained "merely" in this context (its not wrong in many other contexts btw) is I think a bit missing the point

 

And its the main point of this line, and you touched this main point in other parts of what you shared

 

So if you like think about the merely again and what it means in the context of

 

"nirvana is merely the exhaustion of error"

 

There is a pith instruction there like you said

[RigdzinTrinley]

Dear yueva

 

Also I feel Mr.Gray is misrepresenting Buddhist view escpescially when we talk about madhyamika and tantra

 

And that's alright, if I wouldn't spend my life studying and practicing daoism I probably would misrepresent it as well

 

Appearance and emptiness are primordially a union, that's why dzogchen would even say in actual meditation neither is present, which might make some Buddhist schools feel a bit uneasy and say dzogchen is nihilism - but in actuality we need to understand that the point of view of dzogchen is jnana or primordial wisdom not mind (mind can't conceive of perceiving emptiness and appearance as a union because it just can't do it fully. Mind always gets stuck in one of the four extremes it can't go beyond them), so dzogchen explains reality how an elightened being perceives it

 

Also dzogchen doesn't talk from the point of view of the primordial wisdom of the example (what is introduced by the fourth empowerment or by the guru during dzogchen upadesha - unless the disciple reaaaaallly gets it and attains one of the bodhisattva grounds)

 

But the actual primordial wisdom of an arya bodhisattva in meditative equipoise - (how that looks is explained in the second half of the heart sutra)

 

And the prajnaparamita also teaches that in reality there are not two truths not even one so why crow about four etc..

 

Why? The two truths are a skillful means to get us out of our box - but they are concepts still - useful ones if understood correctly (if not they are another nice concept to keep us bound - like exchanging iron chains for golden chains), edit: in the best case scenario they are self destructing

 

Like apech said - the fire is exhausted when the wood is consumed completely

 

But still so far no one answered this question clearly: "what is there once you're out of your box? Is there something or not?"

 

"Nirvana is merely the exhaustion of error"

Edited January 25, 2016 by RigdzinTrinley