Nirvana is...

[Brian]

 

Of course yes, ordinarily, we use the word casually. But philosophically it takes on a different status.

I think philosophers often delude themselves with a mantle of pith and merit.

[Apech]

I think philosophers often delude themselves with a mantle of pith and merit.

 

 

pith?  do you have a lisp?

Edited January 28, 2016 by Apech

[Michael Sternbach]

@Micheal

 

Yes I'll be in correspondence with you once I get the meditations started - also I'll need basic understanding of astrology, an understanding that works well with the G.D. tarot model, any suggestions on that?

 

The most confusing aspect for beginners is that the astrology of Tarot is largely based on the decans, which are a part of ancient astrological lore, not really popular among modern practitioners. The best book about it is:

 

Austin Coppock: 36 Faces - The History, Astrology and Magic of the Decans

 

It directly talks about the 36 numbered pip cards in the GD tradition.

 

Another very good book, covering all of "Tarot astrology", although a bit pricey, is:

 

Phyllis Seckler: The Thoth Tarot, Astrology, & Other Selected Writings

 

OK back to the topic, I'm not content yet

I think you followed our little Buddhist scribbles here and we in some way established that nirvana doesn't exist as a separate entity, a goal or whatever else distinct from samsara

 

Let me summarize and elaborate on some points we raised and agreed upon (the ones active in the discussion at least seem to agree)

 

The conception of liberation comes from the dualistic mind that is weaving samsara (the error "rnam shes" or vijnana - dualistic perception, when exhausted is nirvanic peace but not something new is gained - some entity called a nirvanic mind or an enlightened mind or jnana, just the error is exhausted -> what is left? Inexpressible, unthinkable beyond mind Ah La La Ho!)

 

Now we could argue well then "Nirvana" is just another illusion, and all illusion needs to be overcome - so if there's ultimately no goal, what's the point of working for sentient beings welfare? why even contemplate and meditate on emptiness? - its all just a conceptual trap, just more dualistic mind sewage!!!

 

but here shantideva tells us that "there is only one illusion permissible for the bodhisattva, that there is a goal"

 

And also here:

 

75.

“if beings,” you will say, “have no existence,

Who will be the object of compassion?”

Those whom ignorance imputes and vows to save,

Intending thus to gain the lofty goal.

 

76.

“Since beings are no more,” you ask, “who gains the fruit?”

It’s true! The aspiration’s made in ignorance.

But for the total vanquishing of sorrow,

The goal, which ignorance conceives, should not be spurned.

 

Shantideva is incredible, 2verses and there is so much in here...

 

I try to explain and share my understanding:

So ultimately to think there is nirvana to be gained through abandoning samsara is confusion

 

Even to think that there are suffering beings is ultimately speaking confusion - hallucination

 

Relatively we shouldn't stop striving to attain the goal and work to liberate all sentient beings

 

beings who grasp at a self - suffer through this ignorance, and it makes a lot of sense to give them the highest protection and the best medicine against suffering, namely a correct understanding of reality and tools how to actualize this understanding

 

(Of course first things first, means: without attaining realisation its impossible to really help sentient beings, but a life of total seclusion and total non engagement with the world till full buddhahood is attained is not for everybody)

 

So relatively speaking there is something to do, there is a goal

 

Important to know is that the goal is merely the exhaustion of error

 

this mind made aspiration or wish to attain peace will lead to the exhaustion of error - we could say its a good dualistic mind, something to cultivate till we reach full buddhahood

 

The traditional example that is in line with apech and my discussion on vijnana and jnana (rnam shes ye she) helps to illustrate this:

 

The idea of appearance (stick no1 vijnana) and emptiness (stick no2 vijnana) are rubbed together and the resulting fire (jnana) will consume them both

 

Once all vijnana is exhausted one is called a Buddha

 

The exhaustion of error or vijnana (mind you not to think jnana is a somebody or something or the Buddha is somebody or something ultimately speaking - from the form skandha till the omniscient mind of the Buddha everything is illusion, emptiness)

 

to come back again to "nirvana is the exhaustion of error" but in other words:

One such error is the idea of a Nirvana other then samsara or a samsara apart from Nirvana

 

Or even the Union of samsara/nirvana

 

Both bondage and liberation are created by the magician that is our dualistic mind (vijnana)

 

Once that erroneous mind is exhausted there is peace (non abiding nirvana)

 

Peace means freedom from all conceptual elaborations - the dharmakaya

 

Dear Micheal in light of our conversation and my little summary of key points could you try to explain this with the symbolism of the major arcana, to fulfill RT completely? I think its possible and would be very interesting for me and maybe also others

 

Let's see... Maybe by proceeding to Trump II, The High Priestess, we can gain a perspective on these Buddhist teachings from another (Hermetic) angle. (Sorry that I couldn't find a bigger picture of this card online.)

 

 

On the one hand, this is a symbol of duality, in accordance with the number two. Not unlike The Magus, it carries some kind of grid, which fills the space between what seem to be two pillars. This again makes us think of the illusion of separateness that comes with measuring, as we contemplated when looking at the previous card. Measuring, meter, matrix, matter - all these words stem from the Sanskrit root matr-, which is related to maya ("division of the Now"), isn't it? The High Priestess, if ill dignified in a reading, can indeed stand for illusion and vicissitude. She is Isis - hidden behind a veil that "mortal men" can't look through!

 

Yet this same grid that seemingly separates things and events also interconnects them. Isis oversees the net that she spans between her two arms with her holistic vision, which penetrates to the all encompassing unity much like Artemis' bow and arrow on her lap. Also Indra's net comes to mind, carrying pearls each of which reflects all the others.

 

Therefore this card, if well dignified, stands for intuitive insight,  oceanic unlimitedness, an appreciation of the flowing nature of reality - wu wei.

 

The alchemical attribution of this card is Mercury - not as a planet now, but as an alchemical principle. This is the World Soul, the Anima Mundi, that gives birth to myriads of individual beings, yet interconnects them with each other. Just think of how quicksilver, the only metal that is liquid at room temperature, tends to split into numerous little balls which, however just as easily fuse together into bigger balls again!

 

Maybe this helps as appreciate that Samsara is Nirwana, and Nirwana is Samsara, as it were.

 

Be free to elaborate on these thoughts as you see fit. I look forward to your comments.

[Brian]

 

pith? do you have a lisp?

That'th not very nith to thay. It'th jutht a tiny little thpeth impediment. Hardly even notithable...

Edited January 28, 2016 by Brian

[Apech]

Nephthys in Egyptian religion - literally Lady of the 'House' - Neb.t-hwt ... but hwt means temple enclosure - she is the Lady of the Temple = High Priestess.  Just thought I'd mention it.

 

@Micheal - can you elaborate on the decans and the Tarot?  36 into 22????

Edited January 28, 2016 by Apech

[3bob]

RT, 

Thanks for reply and in taking a shot at that named form of reasoning you mentioned.... by the way I'd say regardless of what any form of reasoning is called or proclaimed to be in these matters imo it can go no further than the four-fold negation as directly alluded to by the historic Buddha.  And to say or believe otherwise is an exercise in futility which any form of reasonable reasoning should be able admit to itself.  Neti, neti also recognizes that quandary although without hanging Truth out in the wind to flap around meaninglessly.

[doc benway]

RT, 

Thanks for reply and in taking a shot at that named form of reasoning you mentioned.... by the way I'd say regardless of what any form of reasoning is called or proclaimed to be in these matters imo it can go no further than the four-fold negation as directly alluded to by the historic Buddha.  And to say or believe otherwise is an exercise in futility which any form of reasonable reasoning should be able admit to itself.  Neti, neti also recognizes that quandary although without hanging Truth out in the wind to flap around meaninglessly.

 

"hanging Truth out in the wind to flap around meaninglessly" sounds like a criticism but seems to me to be the whole point.

There is a limit to what the conceptual mind can grasp, pointing out that limit is helpful in transcending that limit.

[RigdzinTrinley]

Ya know madhyamika is my jam

 

Doesn't mean its the best and last and ultimate way of establishing the view in order to meditate for all sentient beings who care about such things, but its really an incredible lineage and teaching that liberated many beings and is still alive

 

Neti neti sounds like a great teaching too, so far I never looked at it but I also heard that the advaita Vedanta masters had some incredible reasonings to establish their view, while meditating in shri ramanashram there was no question that a siddha was/is living there, so these teachings liberated many beings as well, and are still alive as a lineage

 

Then there are the nathas etc etc

 

See if I met shankaracharya in person I probably become his disciple same holds true for one of the natha masters as well as tsongkhapa,gorampa or the jonangpa taranatha(a student of a nath - buddhaguptanath from the nath sampradaya, this Indian nath had visions of vajrayogini in bodh gaya and didn't care to make divisions in his yogic practice, lifestyle, view etc.)

 

Karmically I ended up with Longchenpa etc

 

Good to be in a siddha lineage you know nothing to complain from my side

 

EDIT: for the record you did tickle my ego there...

Edited January 28, 2016 by RigdzinTrinley

[Apech]

Ya know madhyamika is my jam

 

Doesn't mean its the best and last and ultimate way of establishing the view in order to meditate for all sentient beings who care about such things, but its really an incredible lineage and teaching that liberated many beings and is still alive

 

Neti neti sounds like a great teaching too, so far I never looked at it but I also heard that the advaita Vedanta masters had some incredible reasonings to establish their view, while meditating in shri ramanashram there was no question that a siddha was/is living there, so these teachings liberated many beings as well, and are still alive as a lineage

 

Then there are the nathas etc etc

 

See if I met shankaracharya in person I probably become his disciple same holds true for one of the natha masters as well as tsongkhapa,gorampa or the jonangpa taranatha(a student of a nath - buddhaguptanath from the nath sampradaya, this Indian nath had visions of vajrayogini in bodh gaya and didn't care to make divisions in his yogic practice, lifestyle, view etc.)

 

Karmically I ended up with Longchenpa etc

 

Good to be in a siddha lineage you know nothing to complain from my side

 

EDIT: for the record you did tickle my ego there...

 

THIS!

[RigdzinTrinley]

@Michael

 

That will take time, till I can comment I mean

 

I feel so far all of your posts explain parts of this particular Buddhist View I'm thought, yet its also simply different. So till I get an aha or have another question might take a while

 

Its very interesting though

 

Edit: you dear sir might want to have a look at the "charyagiti" an ancient collection of dohas from the nath and Buddhist siddha lineages - I almost feel like starting a discussion in the esoteric section to see how the hermetic TDB order deals and unlocks its "twilight language" - its very beautiful and evocative symbolic language, I think you might enjoy it alot actually

Edited January 28, 2016 by RigdzinTrinley

[3bob]

humm, certain or some siddhi(s) and siddha(s) can turn to either hellish or heavenly ways without the irrefutable anchor of the Truth beyond any form of reason...  so at best siddhis and siddhas are tools of a secondary order to be used for and by Truth.  Thus I'd say that "Jaya Guru" also and more deeply means Jaya Truth (as it reveals Itself to be beyond speculation, doubt, dualistic thinking or of the possibility being turned)

Edited January 28, 2016 by 3bob

[doc benway]

Ya know madhyamika is my jam

 

You must be a big hit with the ladies!

 

[RigdzinTrinley]

humm, certain or some siddhi(s) and siddha(s) can turn to either hellish or heavenly ways without the irrefutable anchor of the Truth beyond any form of reason... so at best siddhis and siddhas are tools of a secondary order to be used for and by Truth. Thus I'd say that "Jaya Guru" also and more deeply means Jaya Truth (as it reveals Itself to be beyond speculation, doubt, dualistic thinking or of the possibility being turned)

 

I have nothing much to say to this

Edited January 28, 2016 by RigdzinTrinley

[RigdzinTrinley]

You must be a big hit with the ladies!

I doubt that

[Michael Sternbach]

@Michael

 

That will take time, till I can comment I mean

 

I feel so far all of your posts explain parts of this particular Buddhist View I'm thought, yet its also simply different. So till I get an aha or have another question might take a while

 

Its very interesting though

 

Edit: you dear sir might want to have a look at the "charyagiti" an ancient collection of dohas from the nath and Buddhist siddha lineages - I almost feel like starting a discussion in the esoteric section to see how the hermetic TDB order deals and unlocks its "twilight language" - its very beautiful and evocative symbolic language, I think you might enjoy it alot actually

 

That sounds really interesting. I will enjoy it even more with you as a guide though. I'm waiting for you to start the thread and make the Hermetic TDB order happy any moment now.

[RigdzinTrinley]

I'm about to go to bed this will need to wait for a night

[Michael Sternbach]

 

Nephthys in Egyptian religion - literally Lady of the 'House' - Neb.t-hwt ... but hwt means temple enclosure - she is the Lady of the Temple = High Priestess.  Just thought I'd mention it.

 

@Micheal - can you elaborate on the decans and the Tarot?  36 into 22????

 

Where should there be a problem?

 

36 decans and 36 numbered Minor Arcana (leaving out the Aces or "roots" of their respective elements).

12 signs and 12 Court Cards (leaving out the Princesses or "thrones" of their respective elements). And just to spice things up a little, there is a 10° shift between signs and Court Cards.

12 signs and 12 Major Arcana associated with them (by way of their attributed paths on the Kabbalistic Tree of Life).

7 traditional planets and 7 Major Arcana associated with them (by way of their attributed paths on the Tree of Life).

3 mother elements and 3 Major Arcana associated with them (again, by way of the paths on the Tree of Life attributed to them).

 

The imagery of the decans, although as far as we know not associated with Tarot prior to the 19th century, played an immensely important role in magic since antiquity (but I'm sure you know that, Apech).

 

The connection between the planets, signs and elements with the Hebrew letters and paths on the ToL dates back to the earliest book of Jewish esotericism, the Sepher Yetzirah.

 

The whole system of astrological correspondences looks like this:

 

[Apech]

Where should there be a problem?

 

36 decans and 36 numbered Minor Arcana (leaving out the Aces or "roots" of their respective elements).

12 signs and 12 Court Cards (leaving out the Princesses or "thrones" of their respective elements). And just to spice things up a little, there is a 10° shift between signs and Court Cards.

12 signs and 12 Major Arcana associated with them (by way of their attributed paths on the Kabbalistic Tree of Life).

7 traditional planets and 7 Major Arcana associated with them (by way of their attributed paths on the Tree of Life).

3 mother elements and 3 Major Arcana associated with them (again, by way of the paths on the Tree of Life attributed to them).

 

The imagery of the decans, although as far as we know not associated with Tarot prior to the 19th century, played an immensely important role in magic since antiquity (but I'm sure you know that, Apech).

 

The connection between the planets, signs and elements with the Hebrew letters and paths on the ToL dates back to the earliest book of Jewish esotericism, the Sepher Yetzirah.

 

The whole system of astrological correspondences looks like this:

 

 

 

I'll have to think about all that!

 

Yes the decans are originally Egyptian which is why I'm interested.

 

I have a friend who claims the Tarot is from some inscription in the temple at Philae - but I have never been able to trace this.

[Michael Sternbach]

I'll have to think about all that!

 

Yes the decans are originally Egyptian which is why I'm interested.

 

I have a friend who claims the Tarot is from some inscription in the temple at Philae - but I have never been able to trace this.

 

I really don't wish to hijack RT's thread, instead, I will be pleased to talk about Tarot and the decans more on

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/38584-tarot-and-the-36-decans/

[forestofclarity]

Relative truth is samvrti, which means obscuring or concealed. In other words, conventional truth is fictional, like you say. Lama Tony Duff calls it "fictional truth." It isn't really true, but it appears true to those who see it, like the rope that is mistaken for the snake. 

 

@ RT

 

Always had a problem with the term 'two truths' - I guess I am quibbling at the use of the word truth here.  In English 'truth' is something quite definite - it's true or it's not.  I realise this is an unsubtle way of looking at things but that's how I see it.  There's Truth and there's convention - and convention is just how you take things for practical purposes it's not truth really.  

[RigdzinTrinley]

Relative truth is samvrti, which means obscuring or concealed. In other words, conventional truth is fictional, like you say. Lama Tony Duff calls it "fictional truth." It isn't really true, but it appears true to those who see it, like the rope that is mistaken for the snake.

The literal translations of the Tibetan terms would be "all-concealing" truth and "conventional truth"

 

I can't remember the spelling but phonetic its: kuntsob denpa and tanye denpa

 

"Kun" means all "tsob" has the connotations of lying, concealing or veiling something + denpa which is truth and true also in colloquial usage "all concealing truth"

 

"Tanye" means conventions, words, designations for "denpa" see above

"Conventional truth"

 

This two terms are used interchangeably

 

Dondam denpa is usually translated as ultimate truth or absolute truth a more literal one would be "don" = meaning, actual meaning "dam" = sacred, sublime etc. So "the truth of the sublime meaning" or something like that.

 

I still think for our little discussion relative/ultimate is good because most people know those terms

[3bob]

relative truth is True for the realm, law and or elements that it applies to or operates with... this is not rocket science or some grandiose or subtle revelation, it's as plain as day .. for heavens sake!

[RigdzinTrinley]

Exactly thats why the the Indian and Tibetan masters say you have to meditate on the absolute or ultimate truth - no need to meditate on the relative

 

Of course it helps to distinguish both - all the teaching on bzhen dbyad or distinguishing come to mind

 

Distinguishing mind and rigpa

Consciousness and primordial wisdom (vijnana and jnana)

Alaya and dharmakaya etc

 

The above are all tantric methods and teachings

 

From the sutra point of view its important first to establish the conceptual or nominal ultimate correctly so you have something to meditate on

 

Unless you're a spiritual prodigy and naturally get the actual or non conceptual ultimate directly without much learning and contemplation

 

That also means you're a bodhisattva on the bhumis

 

Those cases are very very rare almost unheard of (probably because after getting the main point you're quiet happy doing nothing )

 

My main teachers generally emphasize both the sutric path and the lamas upadeshas - in equal measures.

 

Two of the old cave yogis I know just teach the upadeshas and kick you out after 1-2days of teaching, and say come back if you have a real question

[3bob]

sounds like an interesting raft all hot-rodded up with Mercury boat motors, kind of shame it has to be left behind, but that's ok since someone else can borrow it for awhile.

 

some of my main teachers have been cats, they emphasize Tao

[forestofclarity]

Actually, the status of relative truth is a large point of disagreement between the Gelug and non-Gelug schools of Tibetan Buddhism. 

 

relative truth is True for the realm, law and or elements that it applies to or operates with... this is not rocket science or some grandiose or subtle revelation, it's as plain as day .. for heavens sake!