Caring too much about what society thinks of you.

[Oneironaut]

[This was previously posted on Zen Forum International]

 

I care too much about what others think about me and I really want to bring this torture to an everlasting finish. This whole business of caring about what others think about me causes such a great degree of stress, fear and anxiety. This fear leaves me with no inner space, no freedom and leaves me walking around tight, awkward and nearly paralyzed. This thinking also has me feeling suffocated and enslaved to everyone which in turn leaves me deeply unhappy as this runs completely contrary to how I want to live my life. I know I don't have to live my life this way but I just don't know how to stop this deeply ingrained (possibly trained or conditioned) behavior.  

Externally I can pull off the devil may care act but internally I'm worse off than a plane accident or a train wreck. The external act and "faking it till I make it" does me no good in the long run. I don't know where to begin or what to do when it comes to tackling this issue. Any suggestions?

 

I'm posting this here as well because I'm interested in knowing how to handle this issue from the Taoist perspective. 

[johndoe2012]

From a healing perspective: working on the particular emotional, mental and karmic issues until the problem disappears from your experience.

 

PM me if you want some more details on systems that enable you to do so.

[Karl]

[This was previously posted on Zen Forum International] I care too much about what others think about me and I really want to bring this torture to an everlasting finish. This whole business of caring about what others think about me causes such a great degree of stress, fear and anxiety. This fear leaves me with no inner space, no freedom and leaves me walking around tight, awkward and nearly paralyzed. This thinking also has me feeling suffocated and enslaved to everyone which in turn leaves me deeply unhappy as this runs completely contrary to how I want to live my life. I know I don't have to live my life this way but I just don't know how to stop this deeply ingrained (possibly trained or conditioned) behavior. Externally I can pull off the devil may care act but internally I'm worse off than a plane accident or a train wreck. The external act and "faking it till I make it" does me no good in the long run. I don't know where to begin or what to do when it comes to tackling this issue. Any suggestions? I'm posting this here as well because I'm interested in knowing how to handle this issue from the Taoist perspective.

I can answer from an objectivist perspective.

 

If you live your life as a sacrificial human being that believes in duty and obligation to his fellow man, purely for its own sake, then conflict will follow, and with it, a deep unhappiness.

 

For it is not 'that which men think of you' which troubles you. It's that you behave in a way which is contrary to independent existence.

 

Of course it's conditioned by a philosophy which believes in self sacrifice to a greater good. That a man should be his brothers keeper. That pride is evil and humility is good. That selfishness is bad and altruism is good. That man must be punished for his inherent evilness, that he cannot know reality and therefore must bow before a greater authority-God, State, or Society. If one begins life with these beliefs, then one will inevitably let his mind-and therefore his body-be enslaved to others.

 

First change the philosophy from the ground up based on axioms. Accept responsibility for yourself first and that your mind is your only tool of survival and happiness. If you allow it to be enslaved to other men you will live in perpetual fear of their wrath and criticism. This is what paralyses. That you live your life by their determination and not your own is the quintessential essence of slavery. However, you only enslaved yourself. The choice remains with you to be free, but only you can choose that.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Karl

[Marblehead]

I have little to say after Karl's post.

 

Brainwashed you are indeed.  Question everything.  Trash everything that prohibits you from living your life naturally.

[Oneironaut]

That man must be punished for his inherent evilness, that he cannot know reality and therefore must bow before a greater authority-God, State, or Society. If one begins life with these beliefs, then one will inevitably let his mind-and therefore his body-be enslaved to others.

 

Yes, I was indoctrinated in those beliefs from day one.

 

First change the philosophy from the ground up based on axioms.

 

It can take a long while to dissect, change and rebuild my thinking from the ground up but this seems like a very logical and effective approach. Do you have any suggestions on where to begin?  

 

If you allow it to be enslaved to other men you will live in perpetual fear of their wrath and criticism. This is what paralyses. That you live your life by their determination and not your own is the quintessential essence of slavery. However, you only enslaved yourself. The choice remains with you to be free, but only you can choose that.

 

Your words resonate very deeply with me. You have incredible insight and wisdom.

 

I choose to be free but where can I take a more active approach to claiming back my own mind? Meditation? Perhaps repeatedly putting myself in tense situations so I can develop the resolve and calm confidence of a battle hardened warrior? Cognitive Behavioral Therapy or hypnosis?

 

I notice that when I'm in social situations I always feel like I'm walking on egg shells. It doesn't matter if I know the person or not but I shouldn't have to live my life carrying this social baggage. 

 

“Care about what other people think and you will always be their prisoner.” 

― Lao Tzu

Edited January 25, 2016 by Oneironaut

[doc benway]

[This was previously posted on Zen Forum International]

 

I care too much about what others think about me and I really want to bring this torture to an everlasting finish. This whole business of caring about what others think about me causes such a great degree of stress, fear and anxiety. This fear leaves me with no inner space, no freedom and leaves me walking around tight, awkward and nearly paralyzed. This thinking also has me feeling suffocated and enslaved to everyone which in turn leaves me deeply unhappy as this runs completely contrary to how I want to live my life. I know I don't have to live my life this way but I just don't know how to stop this deeply ingrained (possibly trained or conditioned) behavior.  

 

Externally I can pull off the devil may care act but internally I'm worse off than a plane accident or a train wreck. The external act and "faking it till I make it" does me no good in the long run. I don't know where to begin or what to do when it comes to tackling this issue. Any suggestions?

 

I'm posting this here as well because I'm interested in knowing how to handle this issue from the Taoist perspective. 

 

The person who brought this issue to light for me first was Anthony Demello.

I would highly recommend listening to his CD series called Wake Up to Life.

 

No way I could do it justice in a post but I'll touch briefly on a few key points:

- We are conditioned from early childhood to be addicted to and dependent on the approval of others - first our parents, then teachers, friends, lovers, children, bosses, coworkers, and so on. Approval is as powerful as any drug.

 

- We are under the mistaken impression that other people have the power to influence how we feel. It is so deeply ingrained that it takes a lot of time and internal investigation to see through this charade. We alone are responsible for how we feel and how we react to the world.

 

- Society at large is constantly reinforcing this conditioning as is our own internal narration as it is self sustaining.

 

- Like any other addiction, the problem is that we are infatuated with how it makes us feel. The only way to break free is to recognize that and find a way to let go of that dependence.

 

Once I got a taste of this freedom, it gave me the power to continue to work towards that direction. I can't say that I am completely free but I've come a long way. The important thing is that you have identified the problem. That is huge! Most of us never see that and go through life like a monkey on a string, pulled this way and that at the whim of others. Seeing the problem and really feeling the truth of it is enough to begin to make a change. The key is awareness - watch yourself carefully and watch how you react to others. When you see this tendency, remind yourself that this is not how you want to live and things will shift for sure.

 

Good luck

[Karl]

Yes, I was indoctrinated in those beliefs from day one.

 

 

 

It can take a long while to dissect, change and rebuild my thinking from the ground up but this seems like a very logical and effective approach. Do you have any suggestions on where to begin?  

 

 

 

Your words resonate very deeply with me. You have incredible insight and wisdom.

 

I choose to be free but where can I take a more active approach to claiming back my own mind? Meditation? Perhaps repeatedly putting myself in tense situations so I can develop the resolve and calm confidence of a battle hardened warrior? Cognitive Behavioral Therapy or hypnosis?

 

I notice that when I'm in social situations I always feel like I'm walking on egg shells. It doesn't matter if I know the person or not but I shouldn't have to live my life carrying this social baggage. 

 

“Care about what other people think and you will always be their prisoner.” 

― Lao Tzu

 

Most of us are indoctrinated with those beliefs. We were never given any proof that they were true and discouraged from questioning.

 

You have already begun :-) I broadly follow Ayn Rands objectivist philosophy but only after studying the Trivium and Misian Austrian economics-but that doesn't mean that is the right course of action for you. It would be the height of hypocrisy if I became yet another person that was unwittingly grasping your mental chains.

 

Dorothy L Sayer had good advice here. "For the sole true end of education is simply this: to teach men how to learn for themselves; and whatever instruction fails to do this is effort spent in vain"

 

And John Seeley Brown " it's never enough just to tell someone about some new insight. Rather, you have to get them to experience it in a way that evokes the power and possibility. Instead of pouring knowledge into people's heads, you need to help them grind a new set of eyeglasses so they can see the world in a new way"

 

I found that a course in Aristotlian logic by Leonard peikoff-it is a series of recorded lectures with a workbook downloadable for about $20 from his website-was very useful.

 

I did 8 years of meditation, self inquiry and various other eastern practices. I trained as an NLP practitioner and coach with basic hypnotic trance induction, part of which was to go through the therapy myself. If these things appeal then you are free to try them, but you must make your own mind about their efficacy in producing permanent happiness. Remember this one thing 'Anything that offers temporary happiness isn't real'.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Geof Nanto]

What's being discussed here is something I started upon 40 years or so ago when I was about 20 and realised the life I was living was not making me happy. At the time I was managing a successful business that I’d started with a friend. So I decided to do whatever made me feel good - and that was the start of my personal journey of self-discovery.  I’ve learnt much along the way; plenty of mistakes, plenty of help from various teachers.

 

What I was experiencing is aptly illustrated by the second stage of the well-known Zen rule of three: Mountain, no mountain, mountain…...

 

Qingyuan declared that there were three stages in his understanding of the dharma: the first stage, seeing mountain as mountain and water as water; the second stage, seeing mountain not as mountain and water not as water; and the third stage, seeing mountain still as mountain and water still as water.

 

The second stage is one of great learning, new insights; for me much anguish and turmoil followed by new certainties. The third stage realisation is something best left open as it is only meaningful as personal experience.

[Marblehead]

Yes.  I think the third stage would be ever evolving.

[futuredaze]

I agree "fake it 'till you make it" is not a good mentality.  In my experience, a better mantra would be something like "embrace it 'till you transform it."  By running from and avoiding our fears, weaknesses, and darkness we end up giving these things strength over us.  Once we embrace them, we inevitably watch these things transform into something else.  Nothing is permanent.  A lot of times our "weaknesses" are really just obstacles placed on our paths to challenge us and remind us of our strengths.  Like shadows that remind us of the light, the struggle is critical part of the journey.

[thelerner]

If we disregard the trigger we're left with a problem of fear and anxiety. 

 

If the trigger were snakes or heights I'd recommend relaxing and slowly acclimatizing yourself to them.  Watching your body for reactions that cause the fear and trying to relax or distract them.  Build up confidence and/or resistance.

 

This is the thought 'What do people think of me' in social conditions.  This tends to be more prevalent in Japanese society, where conforming and pleasing the group is a very powerful social norm.  There are classes in deconditioning it.  In them people are ordered to do outrageous things, like going to a street corner and shouting repeatedly something ridiculous. 

 

So.. I'd recommend deconditioning it.  Join a group where you are forced to talk in public.  Something like Toastmasters, where you're forced to talk in public.  In my case I'm in a creative writing group where we write and voluntarily read what we put down.  These kinds of things are good practice.   Again its about looking for the mental and physical clues that come before the panicky thought and coming up with skillful means so they lose power over you.

 

Put yourself in controlled positions where the panic will strike and welcome it, study it.  What we put under a microscope often fades away.   Maybe not the first or 2nd but in time we overcome it. 

 

In my case heading to a place like Burning Man which celebrates the outrageous and you learn its all good, we all do our thing, do our own dance, (within the rules of common courtesy) let it all hang out and to hell with whatever someone else thinks of it. 

Edited January 28, 2016 by thelerner

[wilfred]

do you have a practice? with an effective practice these type of feelings will gradually over time dissolve (no i'm not there yet). with more energy comes more awareness, with more awareness comes increasing familiarity with feelings being generated around projections based on what other people think of you. it's all ignorance, there are no grounds for 'judgement'.

[vonkrankenhaus]

"Society" is just a system of associative thinking produced by corporations according to their needs.

 

It takes about 18 years of overt systematic brainwashing via "education" and "media" to inculcate.

 

In most "developed" areas you will meet people who have been trained to believe in it.

 

There, it will look real.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[PLB]

There are many conflicting currents in the approval we seek. I don't look at it as an object of desire but something that has been removed in the course of an exchange. The power momentarily given to the other is not the subtraction experienced. The two processes are entangled but are not two sides of one coin. I could refuse to make the exchange with any other and still subtract from myself. The desire to be free from the evaluation is itself an appeal to be given value.

[dawei]

[This was previously posted on Zen Forum International]

 

I care too much about what others think about me and I really want to bring this torture to an everlasting finish. This whole business of caring about what others think about me causes such a great degree of stress, fear and anxiety. This fear leaves me with no inner space, no freedom and leaves me walking around tight, awkward and nearly paralyzed. This thinking also has me feeling suffocated and enslaved to everyone which in turn leaves me deeply unhappy as this runs completely contrary to how I want to live my life. I know I don't have to live my life this way but I just don't know how to stop this deeply ingrained (possibly trained or conditioned) behavior.  

 

Externally I can pull off the devil may care act but internally I'm worse off than a plane accident or a train wreck. The external act and "faking it till I make it" does me no good in the long run. I don't know where to begin or what to do when it comes to tackling this issue. Any suggestions?

 

I'm posting this here as well because I'm interested in knowing how to handle this issue from the Taoist perspective. 

 

Can you talk through a few examples of 'feeling suffocated and enslaved to everyone which in turn leaves me deeply unhappy as this runs completely contrary to how I want to live my life' ?

[Stosh]

I believe the sincerity of the responses I see, I just wonder if things really work out the way described, while one can try to be entirely independent of other peoples thinking , I dont think it actually happens. The clothes one wears , the appearance of your home and type of car , and whether you wash the car, and the kind of language you use and the level of tact one employs, etc etc, to me all seem to point to modifications of -and to- other folks views. Even in something so innocuous as wearing two colors of socks folks will still lean toward matching them. They work the same in any color. They are not attached to one another etc,, And even if someone is trying to prove they dont care about opinions,and ,,  for a day,, wear two colors of socks , most  sooner or later will go back to matching their socks and shaving the stubble. Those who do not observe these rules , become outsiders , shunned from the "normal' world, or at least rejected ,generally speaking. 

Oh I know someone is going to say they match their socks and shave their face because its the way they want to Look, but it still amounts to how they are seen. 

To give someone advice on this topic , as has been offered,  it seems to me to be required that one explain the limits and caveats , to just when they feel this defiant behavior should be limited. ....

Someone says they  dont care about anyone elses opinion at all , ,,, I dont think so. Not for one second.

 

 

 

... Oh and by the way ,, anyone who challenges what I just said ,,, demonstrates the truth of it.

If you so much as Flinch! in private, where No one can see,, you just proved my point. 

Edited February 1, 2016 by Stosh

[Oneironaut]

"Society" is just a system of associative thinking produced by corporations according to their needs.

 

It takes about 18 years of overt systematic brainwashing via "education" and "media" to inculcate.

 

In most "developed" areas you will meet people who have been trained to believe in it.

 

There, it will look real.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

I think you're onto something here. I notice that corporate America trains their workers into being people pleasers for the sake of good customer service. Doing this day in and day out for many years can really take it's toll on you. It will permeate into other areas of your life outside of work.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Oneironaut

[Oneironaut]

I agree "fake it 'till you make it" is not a good mentality.  In my experience, a better mantra would be something like "embrace it 'till you transform it."  By running from and avoiding our fears, weaknesses, and darkness we end up giving these things strength over us.  Once we embrace them, we inevitably watch these things transform into something else.  Nothing is permanent.  A lot of times our "weaknesses" are really just obstacles placed on our paths to challenge us and remind us of our strengths.  Like shadows that remind us of the light, the struggle is critical part of the journey.

 

I just found a YouTube comment that goes hand in hand with what you're saying. Here it is (in bold):

 

To stop caring what others think you have to not care. Simple. You won't care if you meditate, control your emotions, and detach from your emotions. All the negative emotions such as fear, stress, anxiety will come up when you live how you want to live so what you need to do is embrace that pain, feel it and allow it to transform you to a stronger person. The more you squash your fears the more they don't hold you anymore. I would recommend everyone to meditate everyday with the intention to "let go" and actually put yourself in those uncomfortable situations to grow.

 

I think these suggestions along with meditation and changing the foundations of my beliefs based on axioms (as someone mentioned earlier) would completely rewire my mind where I can rightfully take control of it. 

Edited February 1, 2016 by Oneironaut

[Oneironaut]

do you have a practice? 

 

Reiki Level 1

 

Can you talk through a few examples of 'feeling suffocated and enslaved to everyone which in turn leaves me deeply unhappy as this runs completely contrary to how I want to live my life' ?

 

Yes.

 

First example would be me walking by a very crowded area and as I'm getting stares from strangers I feel my lack of confidence in myself and begin wondering what these people are thinking of me or if there's anything wrong with me in general. I feel like I need to modify my behavior to fit in and perhaps their attention would just drift elsewhere. 

 

Example 2: If I'm in the presence of an attractive female I feel like I need to be on my "best behavior" even if the likelihood of anything happening is close to impossible. 

 

Example 3: If there is slight tension in the air I feel like I need to put others needs ahead of my own in order to avoid any kind of conflict. 

 

Example 4: To avoid any kind of social disproval or confrontation I allow people to walk all over me and I don't dare speak my mind. In essence this make me a coward.

 

For the third and fourth example... I realize when I'm in shape and fresh and on point with my boxing skills the anxiety and care for the approval of others goes away entirely. In fact boxing gives me a more cavalier attitude and I'm simultaneously in a zen state of mind. I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing especially If I'm more welcoming of an "anything goes" confrontation but it's not like I go out deliberately looking for it or creating the circumstances so they can occur. I'm a very peaceful person by default.

 

From a psychological standpoint I should be on medications for social anxiety disorder.

 

Those who do not observe these rules , become outsiders , shunned from the "normal' world, or at least rejected ,generally speaking. 

 

I'm already there. It's been that way all my life.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Oneironaut

[Karl]

I believe the sincerity of the responses I see, I just wonder if things really work out the way described, while one can try to be entirely independent of other peoples thinking , I dont think it actually happens. The clothes one wears , the appearance of your home and type of car , and whether you wash the car, and the kind of language you use and the level of tact one employs, etc etc, to me all seem to point to modifications of -and to- other folks views. Even in something so innocuous as wearing two colors of socks folks will still lean toward matching them. They work the same in any color. They are not attached to one another etc,, And even if someone is trying to prove they dont care about opinions,and ,,  for a day,, wear two colors of socks , most  sooner or later will go back to matching their socks and shaving the stubble. Those who do not observe these rules , become outsiders , shunned from the "normal' world, or at least rejected ,generally speaking. 

Oh I know someone is going to say they match their socks and shave their face because its the way they want to Look, but it still amounts to how they are seen. 

To give someone advice on this topic , as has been offered,  it seems to me to be required that one explain the limits and caveats , to just when they feel this defiant behavior should be limited. ....

Someone says they  dont care about anyone elses opinion at all , ,,, I dont think so. Not for one second.

 

 

 

... Oh and by the way ,, anyone who challenges what I just said ,,, demonstrates the truth of it.

If you so much as Flinch! in private, where No one can see,, you just proved my point. 

 

Not quite. There is a distinct difference with living in relation to other people and living through the opinions of other people.

 

So, for instance in order to trade with someone, then you must give value. Their opinion of you and your opinion of them is certainly necessary. However notice it is an exchange. Just as opinions on here are exchanges. It's very different if no exchange is made, or if the exchange is based on dishonesty. If one pretends to be something that one isn't, or if one is reliant on an externalised virtue which one does not have. If one does not possess the virtue of pride, so must be constantly told that their work, efforts, character are good.

[futuredaze]

I just found a YouTube comment that goes hand in hand with what you're saying. Here it is (in bold):

 

To stop caring what others think you have to not care. Simple. You won't care if you meditate, control your emotions, and detach from your emotions. All the negative emotions such as fear, stress, anxiety will come up when you live how you want to live so what you need to do is embrace that pain, feel it and allow it to transform you to a stronger person. The more you squash your fears the more they don't hold you anymore. I would recommend everyone to meditate everyday with the intention to "let go" and actually put yourself in those uncomfortable situations to grow.

 

I think these suggestions along with meditation and changing the foundations of my beliefs based on axioms (as someone mentioned earlier) would completely rewire my mind where I can rightfully take control of it. 

Nice!  In my experience, and what I've heard from others as well, the beginning is often the most challenging part.  It is really hard to maintain a consistent meditation practice and be able to integrate the practice in a skillful way that does not merely spiritually inflate our egos.  Benefits can happen fast, but those benefits can be integrated in such a way that actually does us harm in the long run.  For example, getting fixated on any mental or emotional state, getting fixated on insights or experiences, believing we are superior because of the practice, thinking we are enlightened when we are merely average shmucks drenched in delusion, ignoring important parts of our lives, etc. etc..   Patience, persistence, and caution are important, especially early on.  It has taken me 7 or so years to get to a place that is mostly good, but I suspect I could have gotten here in a few years if I was more consistent with my practice.  But hey, better to attain some progression over a long period of time than none at all.

Edited February 1, 2016 by futuredaze

[Stosh]

Well Karl ,though  I very much like that which you said in the earlier  post ,but it needs this extra explaining,as  in post 20..but  I dont know that One  is pretending his virtue, it may be entirely genuine. We ALL have already been socialized. But he does have anxiety, which may need some thorough attention  ,,, Conversely  Im full aware of some who want to boast , and pretend perfection , with the idea that perfection includes not giving a shit about animals or the environment or other people,, etc, ( Im truly not talking about you , or anyone you know ,, by the way)

[Karl]

Well Karl ,though I very much like that which you said in the earlier post ,but it needs this extra explaining,as in post 20..but I dont know that One is pretending his virtue, it may be entirely genuine. We ALL have already been socialized. But he does have anxiety, which may need some thorough attention ,,, Conversely Im full aware of some who want to boast , and pretend perfection , with the idea that perfection includes not giving a shit about animals or the environment or other people,, etc, ( Im truly not talking about you , or anyone you know ,, by the way)

We can all break the social conditioning. Fear makes us shut our eyes to that of which we should not be afraid. Socialisation produces the fear of ourselves as ourselves, as powerful, confident, compassionate humans.

 

Existence is reduced to scepticism-nothing is fixed.

Independence to dependence on Government.

Justice as punishment for those who we are told are victimising us, or for those we are told we are victimising

Integrity externalised to authority for feedback.

Honesty as a subjective belief (theft is acceptable if it's for the greater good)

Productivity to be 'a job' no matter how unproductive.

Pride destroyed to humility.

 

Its impossible to be a free, functioning human being with the mind so strangled. It makes us into frightened children and cowardly humans lacking in all areas. We reject what we are, because we have been told to do so. That we will be punished, abandoned, hated for being what we are.

 

This isn't a case of offering a perfect solution. You can have an axe but it doesn't mean you can cut down a tree. The axe must be sharp, you must choose the right tree, you must be strong enough and have sufficient energy, you must be able to handle the axe and to be aware of the dangers.

 

So, to pick some fragment such as strength, or sharpness of axe will always end in dispute over how strong or how sharp. That can't be told, it has to be learned by experience, by error and correction.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Karl

[Nungali]

Mhe ... I dont care what 'society' thinks about me .   

 

However I might want to entertain society with some 'bird magic'  ; 

 

 

Here you go 'society' ... just for you .... enjoy the show  ; 

 

 

 

[Stosh]

" We can all break the social conditioning. "

 

Sorry Karl, the fact is we , including you and everyone else who posted,  cant and dont ,, unless youre some kind of sociopath,, You can be insulted or ashamed , lose face , be invalidated , be validated and so forth.......   thats the point I am trying to defeat. 

The title says  ' Caring too much ', and that is a correct slant , you will and do care some , its just that most folks employ defenses, both before and after the fact ,, to be unafraid of , the social censure that they might expect to endure... and then pretend they have no concerns. ( which strikes me as ridiculously self delusional). Think on it a bit more Karl , just take a look at it as if it was possible I was right, and report back .    Just look at Nungali there , presenting his persona and tell me it isnt obvious he cares a great deal about how he is perceived.. he just wants to look tough , bad ass etc . I call BS 

Edited February 2, 2016 by Stosh