Caring too much about what society thinks of you.

[Karl]

" We can all break the social conditioning. "

 

Sorry Karl, the fact is we , including you and everyone else who posted,  cant and dont ,, unless youre some kind of sociopath,, You can be insulted or ashamed , lose face , be invalidated , be validated and so forth.......   thats the point I am trying to defeat. 

The title says  ' Caring too much ', and that is a correct slant , you will and do care some , its just that most folks employ defenses, both before and after the fact ,, to be unafraid of , the social censure that they might expect to endure... and then pretend they have no concerns. ( which strikes me as ridiculously self delusional). Think on it a bit more Karl , just take a look at it as if it was possible I was right, and report back .    Just look at Nungali there , presenting his persona and tell me it isnt obvious he cares a great deal about how he is perceived.. he just wants to look tough , bad ass etc . I call BS 

 

You don't have to be a sociopath and you don't have to be perfect. We are human, we make mistakes. The problem is when we lose our identity and internal principles and outsource them completely.

 

I stopped believing in all that spiritual Nihlism that promised that I could be a remote witness to my own life and circumstances because it became clear that it was really about giving up, surrendering the mind and becoming isolated whilst pretending to be all Zen and wise.

 

I absolutely agree with you that it is delusional, therefore I hold no such beliefs. I rebuilt myself from the inside out. I accepted existence, identity, consciousness in that particular order. Then I established a set of virtues which supported reality. Therefore I am guided by those virtues, and the values I have and claim are in accordance with those principles. This means I don't claim negative values, or positive values that I have not earned. I can most certainly be insulted, equally I can enjoy a compliment. I don't claim to remain aloof, because it is not my intention, or requirement to be so. It makes life a breeze. I'm not dithering about some comment, decision, or circumstance because I always default to existence first and everything else follows from that.

[Stosh]

Thanks, I'm thinking this may be of help to the OP to consider , its much clearer , and suggests on its own , how a person can look at their own vulnerability. Denial , doesn't work well , because one still is still being pushed around by their protected sentiments.

This may even be healthy true humility you've expressed ,, though I realize that to the ordinary view it may not look like such.  I'm thinking ,To be fully aware of ones soft underbelly and not be moved to defend it , makes for tougher skin and more freedom. Nuff said.

[Karl]

Thanks, I'm thinking this may be of help to the OP to consider , its much clearer , and suggests on its own , how a person can look at their own vulnerability. Denial , doesn't work well , because one still is still being pushed around by their protected sentiments.

This may even be healthy true humility you've expressed ,, though I realize that to the ordinary view it may not look like such.  I'm thinking ,To be fully aware of ones soft underbelly and not be moved to defend it , makes for tougher skin and more freedom. Nuff said.

 

You are what you are, the problem is knowing exactly what that amounts to. It's easy to keep on layering false ego on false ego if you haven't established who you are.

 

We are creatures of emotion AND reason. One affects the other. It's not possible to be a cold computer unless some damage has befallen you-that's the point of objectivism, you might get this now. Rational selfishness. Applying reason to attain maximum happiness. One to get the other, not separated.

 

It's not possible to be aware of your vulnerabilities otherwise they would not be true vulnerabilities-if you are talking about objectivism. However, you are aware of what your false vulnerabilities are, or more precisely, were. That's why I said that you must earn a negative value honestly as much as a positive value. That's why a set of principles has to be established and correctly applied. You can't have a set of principles which are floating abstracts tied to nothing, they must be formed from the axiom of existence as the primary.

 

It's not an easy path, but neither is it anything other than how we would naturally be were it not for socialisation and bad philosophies that render us confused. We accept the value of guilt because we were taught we must have it. We cannot exactly put a finger on why we take that value, it's always a vague thing about social conscience, duty, obligation. We don't apply reason, we have no principles or foundation for principles. We are taught that 'sharing' stuff is important or 'having stuff' is greedy. We are told to be 'fair' or that fairness is good, but we don't have a correct appreciation of how that is derived- particularly as it appears predicated on other people. It's no wonder we have so many people with mental issues. We are taught we do/do not 'deserve' rather than what we should earn by our own productive efforts belongs to us.

[Stosh]

Ive No real disagreement with that , except for a minor issue , revolving around whether folks are taught- duty obligation sharing or greed or fairness - outright ,,,, or if these attitudes are rather outgrowths of our innate needs- propensities ,,which may get redirected -hijacked etc.  In short ,,,The ol' nature nurture debate. 

Rational selfishness ,, that theres a wiggly can of worms,,,, my resolution regarding it is that if one includes others as extensions of oneself self in some manner , it can work quite well, but if one arrives at the social conclusion , that oneself is good , and others are not ,, you'd have promoted classic dehumanization ,,, precursor to all the most horrible aspects of human interaction. 

Edited February 2, 2016 by Stosh

[Karl]

Ive No real disagreement with that , except for a minor issue , revolving around whether folks are taught- duty obligation sharing or greed or fairness - outright ,,,, or if these attitudes are rather outgrowths of our innate needs- propensities ,,which may get redirected -hijacked etc.  In short ,,,The ol' nature nurture debate. 

Rational selfishness ,, that theres a wiggly can of worms,,,, my resolution regarding it is that if one includes others as extensions of oneself self in some manner , it can work quite well, but if one arrives at the social conclusion , that oneself is good , and others are not ,, you'd have promoted classic dehumanization ,,, precursor to all the most horrible aspects of human interaction. 

 

We experience existence through the faculty of consciousness. If we are put in an artificial environment in which cause and effect are distorted. Then we adapt to that environment. This becomes our reality, but we aren't happy, just as a slave is not free because his body is a prisoner, then so is his mind. The slave, therefore, cannot use his mind to achieve happiness. The situation with the OP is similar. He knows he isn't happy, but he doesn't know why, he is unaware of the chains, but, they are not obvious physical chains.

 

Rational selfishness means the use of the mind to achieve happiness. If you want to be with people-which is normal for social animals and rational for the purposes of trade, mating, defence, learning, entertainment, companionship-then the ethics that stem from rational selfishness-and at its base existence-are the most effective way of achieving happiness.

 

If you like to help your neighbour, give to charity, celebrate Christmas, give gifts-these are all part of rational selfishness in that they produce happiness if they are done voluntarily. If we are forced to engage in behaviours based on the myth of altruism, then we gain no value from that giving, it feels empty, there is no joy in it.

 

Where we are engaged in trade, then we must give value in order to receive value. It is obvious that we are partaking in an exchange if we give cash for a meal. It's not so obvious that this same exchange is occurring when we give voluntarily without a physical exchange of goods.

 

 

[liminal_luke]

The experience of "caring too much about what society thinks of you" is generally not so pleasant. People who care like this are usually imagining society thinking the worst. No fun. Of course, the enemy here isn´t really society. It´s us. The person with the most bothersome judgments is almost always yours truly.

 

So, first of all, I think it´s helpful to reword the question to something like "why am I being so hard on myself right now?" Just developing an awareness of our shame and self-loathing is very helpful, very healing. Facing it straight on. Sharing our experience of these feelings with a trusted friend or counselor. Writing about these feelings. Making art that expresses these feelings. And then asking how we can approach ourselves with more compassion. How can I be a better friend to myself?

Edited February 3, 2016 by liminal_luke

[liminal_luke]

One more thought. There´s not really such a thing as "society," in the first place -- at least not in the sense we mean when we´re worried about it like this. Just the other day, my partner said "Everybody thinks..." I interrupted him right there and said there´s nothing that "everybody thinks." People are remarkably varied in their thinking. Don´t believe me? Just open up one of the political threads in the Off Topic section. I´m often astounded at the diversity of opinion, and how often people think differently than I do.

 

So while it´s true that people are often judgmental, it´s not true that everybody thinks a certain way.Years ago I was chatting on a dating website and this guy asked me what kind of car I drove. Well, I didn´t own a car. And just like that he was gone. In his mind lack of car ownership = loser, or at least that was my assumption. I´m sure I could find plenty of other people with similar ideas. But does it follow that "society" thinks I´m a loser if I don´t drive? I think not. There are probably plenty of other people who would praise me for not polluting the environment, or imagine that I get more exercise walking.

 

There´s no way that "everybody" thinks. However you are, some people will find a reason to like you and others will find a reason to dislike you.

Edited February 3, 2016 by liminal_luke

[Netero]

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Edited August 18, 2016 by Netero

[Stosh]

Reiki Level 1

 

 

Yes.

 

First example would be me walking by a very crowded area and as I'm getting stares from strangers I feel my lack of confidence in myself and begin wondering what these people are thinking of me or if there's anything wrong with me in general. I feel like I need to modify my behavior to fit in and perhaps their attention would just drift elsewhere. 

 

Example 2: If I'm in the presence of an attractive female I feel like I need to be on my "best behavior" even if the likelihood of anything happening is close to impossible. 

 

Example 3: If there is slight tension in the air I feel like I need to put others needs ahead of my own in order to avoid any kind of conflict. 

 

Example 4: To avoid any kind of social disproval or confrontation I allow people to walk all over me and I don't dare speak my mind. In essence this make me a coward.

 

For the third and fourth example... I realize when I'm in shape and fresh and on point with my boxing skills the anxiety and care for the approval of others goes away entirely. In fact boxing gives me a more cavalier attitude and I'm simultaneously in a zen state of mind. I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing especially If I'm more welcoming of an "anything goes" confrontation but it's not like I go out deliberately looking for it or creating the circumstances so they can occur. I'm a very peaceful person by default.

 

From a psychological standpoint I should be on medications for social anxiety disorder.

 

 

I'm already there. It's been that way all my life.

Sorry I missed this first time round ...

Maybe you may see some of these responses, as I do  , as telling you that you just need to " stop being X " . As if that was intuitively what you would do.  It apparently isnt , and if you really have a disorder it just isnt showing you a path to getting 'there' by telling you how much more tough someone else is.  I figure thats just feeding into a false idea perpetuating the anxiety you've already got!  

I think any potential 'self improvement' implied by taoism isnt gotten by staring at the dark side of your eyelids. It should be clear that those who do meditate may still be just as 'flawed' as anyone else. Moreover I would hope that you could choose from among offered solutions , the one that seems to work best. Then you gotta execute that solution. 

I say , that either defensive aggression , or true humility offers a passable antidote (or at least mitigates things) .

True  Humility not in terms of being a doormat , but in terms of accepting that not only you are fumbling through life , but everyone else is as well. For instance , someone gives me a negative look, well if I know that I just did something they dont like or dont approve of , but I screw up every few minutes , just like they do.  

People are often misled confused obnoxious angry at themselves etc. its simply the best folks can be ! They dont want to be screwed up , but they havent got all the answers either.

 

 Generally speaking , everyone , IMO, thinks they have THE BEST recipe for being a human, under the circumstances they see, . No matter how poorly this sets them up. Any resolutions are going to revolve around having sound reasons to adjust ones ATTITUDE in a way which is not beating yourself up,, , nor excusing anything nor getting all hostile and brash. 

 

It is true though , most people dont give a crap about anyone else , except in the light of whether it validates them or affects potential events which affect them. People reserve real consideration to close family or friends because the general public doesnt reciprocate. I doesnt matter how much you try to be liked , try to do things which you think theyd like etc , they are still preoccupied with themselves foremost ( quite reasonably since they are struggling too) , and only occasionally extend beyond themselves when they feel safe with that - if indeed at all ! 

If you DO extend beyond yourself when you dont feel safe , youre essentially asking for a pie in the face.. you will learn not to trust your own judgement, you will expect rejection ,, and then youre really screwed. Dig out of it , keep intimate things for the appropriate people, knowing  everyone is faulty. Do act conventionally but find your joys as well. 

Thats all IMO of course , though I think its sound. 

Edited February 3, 2016 by Stosh

[PLB]

Maybe the problem doesn't have a solution.

That is not to say that a combination of observation and method cannot be helpful in walking a tightrope over a difficult situation. Knowledge is power and decisions made with knowledge are obviously better than the other kind.
But when I look at this question from the precarious location of what supports my existence, I am not sure what it would even mean to say that I exist independently from the people around me.

[Stosh]

Maybe the problem doesn't have a solution.

That is not to say that a combination of observation and method cannot be helpful in walking a tightrope over a difficult situation. Knowledge is power and decisions made with knowledge are obviously better than the other kind.

But when I look at this question from the precarious location of what supports my existence, I am not sure what it would even mean to say that I exist independently from the people around me.

If I may hop back in here, agreed,   there is no single solution,, any life one lives is actually a 'valid' response to the situations one faces. One is what they are, whatever that is , and does what one does ,,,, whatever one is.

Yes its speaking rhetorically or circularly or something to verbalize this..  But theres a caveat ,, one does set goals , has desires , fears etc,((, some of these things have been handed down or communicated to us ,, from parents, teachers ,community etc ,, and then theres things which one truly originates)). And the world presents itself to us in whichever way it happens to BE.

 The combination of your goals , and the obstacles ,and the possibilities,, define what would be advantageous to do, in meeting those goals. 

The worlds your oyster ,, but it has a hard shell -that needs to be dealt with regardless of ones whims.  We think it would be so wonderful , if the pearls fell from the sky ,, but you'd have nothing to do , you'd get bored , and you'd start looking for shells.