"Well" and Anarchy

[Marblehead]

Owner permissions:

 

Two points really.  1 ) This idea was never suitable for the main part of the board - especially General Dis.  which is of the nature of a free flowing conversation - regularly off topic or tangential, humour, asides, contributions from a personal perspective, lively ... in other words like an actual human conversation.  There is an argument for certain of the subs.  For instance Taoist Texts where you want everyone to keep strictly to the text under discussion and in the right order of chapters - more control needed.  PPF's - yes of course people should be able to moderate their own records - that makes sense.  Other specialist subs. like Buddhist - well maybe but probably not.

 

2 )  It's clear that the board software doesn't really support this concept properly - because it allows those with owner permissions to hide and change things for which they don't actually have such permissions - i.e. other peoples threads and content.  So in this sense it's only approximately in operation anyway.  It opens the door to those of us who like game play, NLP and all that - which as far as I'm concerned is just a load of mind-fuck which we could do without.

 

Moderation rules used to be very simple - no ad hominem insults.   Add to that some rules about undesirable content, spam, porn, race hate and so on.  That was it really. Then the rules are clear.

 

Had I not sleep walked through the introduction of this I would have raised a voice at the time.  So now I would say to paraphrase Ronald Reagan 'tear down those owner permissions'  ....Please.

No problem with what you said.  It is still dictatorial none the less.  Giving one member power over what another can say.  That does not happen in real life.  It doesn't happen on the other two forums I am a member of.

 

You cannot change the nature of a man (or woman).  Taoism speaks to this over and over again.  KISS  Keep it simple sweetie.

 

A couple well-defined rules and enforce those rules.  No hidden rules.  No subjectivity by the Moderators.  And no ego building or unnecessary exercise of power.

[Marblehead]

The introduction was gradual as these things tend to be and we did not really see what we were getting until it had already arrived. Much like mass immigration.

 

I have so much wanted to link this to that but I didn't want to offend anyone.  Thanks for taking on that burden.

[Marblehead]

Yes the first mod team was Mal, Stig, TM ,Trunk and Cat ... Stig resigned - I think that's when I was called up by Mal.

 

Anyway that was then and this is now.    for better or worse.

 

Yep.  And it was shortly after that that Mal resigned.

[Chang]

“The old order changeth,

yielding place to new,  

And God fulfils himself in many ways,

Lest one good custom should corrupt the world."

Edited January 29, 2016 by Chang

[Brian]

“History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme.”

― Mark Twain

 

This plays out over and over in nearly every aspect of modern life, particularly in the arenas of politics and governance. The cycles of action and reaction which unfold on this forum are like portraits in miniature, like "the real world" in a microcosm -- a tempest in a teapot, if you will.

 

Profound ancient teachings are of little value, unfortunately, as guidance for those who have lost the path because they seem abstruse and inapplicable (sometimes pollyannaish and nonsensical). Similarly, those for whom rules are innately unnecessary rarely run afoul of them anyhow. (These people, BTW, often find those ancient observations to be wry and laconic commentaries on the obvious.)

 

A better approach to the issue of responsive small-scale forum management has been tried here before -- the system easily accommodates shepherds with elevated privileges selected from within the participants of a particular subject-specific subsection. The perennial challenge, of course, is to find people with sufficient free time, with interest and willingness to serve, with familiarity with the topic, and with a hide thick enough to withstand the inevitable slings & arrows yet sensitive enough to feel the currents within the current. A tall order.

 

EDIT: change "it" to "is" in the penultimate sentence

Edited January 29, 2016 by Brian

[shanlung]

  A tall order.

 

 

 

And thankless task to boot.

[Marblehead]

HI Brian,

 

I can't "Thank You" the post because it might imply that I am pissed at Dawei or Sean and that would be a gross misunderstanding.  I still respect both.

 

I do think that this latest change is not consistent with Taoist Philosophy nor is it in the best interest of the community in total.

 

It will, IMO, result in creating more enemies than friendships.

 

I have three times turned down the offer of Moderator because of my Anarchist views.  I would have no problem regarding the time or the hide (mine is as thick as a gator's.  But I cannot find it in my heart to tell someone to shut up.  I cannot find it in my heart to tell others what they can or cannot say except for the personal insults and threats.

 

This site/forum is unique and special.  It is closer to real life conversations than any forum site I have ever looked at.

 

I love coming here.  I think one can tell that by my post count.  I want it to remain open and honest.  I don't expect balance.  I don't even expect total harmony.  Real life isn't that way either.  We all have different opinions about stuff.  And some of us have personal goals we are pushing after.

 

Maybe I'm being old fashioned.  Maybe I have placed faulty expectations on the management of this site.  But I do think it is pretty damn close to the Way of Tao.  I wouldn't want to see that change.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Marblehead

[Marblehead]

And thankless task to boot.

 

But not impossible.

[dawei]

I think I posted once in a PPF because I was requested to do so.

 

I have not posted or even read any of the posts in the Wei Wu Wei sub-forum.

 

As soon as the public announcement was posted that additional sub-forums have "Owner" control I stopped looking at all of those sub-forums as well.

 

This and one other thread in Off Topic are the only threads I have looked at and posted to.

 

Honestly, that is mostly due to some sort of fear (or self-imposed boundary).

 

In 10 months I can count how many posts have been hidden... and I can't really disagree too much if I were the OP.   Folks are keeping their threads on track and regretting a post and hiding their own.

 

I notice that those generally using it correctly have no comment in this thread... I guess they get how to use it and what happens if they abuse it.

[Marblehead]

Honestly, that is mostly due to some sort of fear (or self-imposed boundary).

 

In 10 months I can count how many posts have been hidden... and I can't really disagree too much if I were the OP.   Folks are keeping their threads on track and regretting a post and hiding their own.

 

I notice that those generally using it correctly have no comment in this thread... I guess they get how to use it and what happens if they abuse it.

If what you say is true then why extend that capability beyond the PPFs?

 

Any member can request and be authorized a PPF where they can talk all they want about a particular concept or whatever and request an edit of a post by the poster or they can simply delete it.

 

Fear?  You gotta' be bullshitting me! 

 

I can be suspended or banned but please don't be telling me what I can or cannot say.  That would not go over so well.  That is why I do not visit the PPFs or any other thread that has control over what I say.  The moderators can zap the shit out of me any time they wish if I have abuse the forum rules.

[dawei]

If what you say is true then why extend that capability beyond the PPFs?

 

Any member can request and be authorized a PPF where they can talk all they want about a particular concept or whatever and request an edit of a post by the poster or they can simply delete it.

 

Fear?  You gotta' be bullshitting me! 

 

I can be suspended or banned but please don't be telling me what I can or cannot say.  That would not go over so well.  That is why I do not visit the PPFs or any other thread that has control over what I say.  The moderators can zap the shit out of me any time they wish if I have abuse the forum rules.

 

But you seem to be afraid of something which doesn't exist yet...  

 

You can say whatever you want... it will be the OP to decide if your trolling, derailing or otherwise not respecting the topic.

 

Not everyone even has the Permissions...  I'm still waiting to have an actual problem reported about this.  Till then, it is all much ado about nothing as we already know all the potential issues. 

[Marblehead]

But you seem to be afraid of something which doesn't exist yet...  

Pull the freakin' weed before it matures and propagates!!!

[Marblehead]

You can say whatever you want... it will be the OP to decide if your trolling, derailing or otherwise not respecting the topic.

Or calling them out when they are spreading lies and bullshit.

 

Not everyone even has the Permissions...  I'm still waiting to have an actual problem reported about this.  Till then, it is all much ado about nothing as we already know all the potential issues. 

Sure, not everyone has requested permission yet.  Some won't.

 

Whatever.

[dawei]

Or calling them out when they are spreading lies and bullshit.

 

We can talk "what if's" till we're blue in the face... but until it happens and/or reported... we'll then see how it plays out.

 

Nobody has raised anything which isn't already known by staff...   All I can do is wait and see... I just won't play the doomsday game without it occurring. 

[Apech]

We can talk "what if's" till we're blue in the face... but until it happens and/or reported... we'll then see how it plays out.

 

Nobody has raised anything which isn't already known by staff...   All I can do is wait and see... I just won't play the doomsday game without it occurring. 

 

 

Doomsday can be arranged hahahah (echoing evil laughter)

[dawei]

Doomsday can be arranged hahahah (echoing evil laughter)

 

yea... Dr. Evil...  I almost slipped on that one banana peel  

[Zhongyongdaoist]

If what you say is true then why extend that capability beyond the PPFs?

 

PPFs are not public. If you want to have what you say reach a wider audience than Dao Bums members using the PPFs will not work.

 

I don't think that you have had to deal with a spammer since "Always Spamming" was banned.  I recently had to deal with the last of the "Red Hot Spammers" on the Dao Bums, a person who had ruined every thread about Plato and Platonism ever started on this thread for the sake of his conspiracy agenda.  Frankly, I would not have started it if I had not known that I had the ability to remove his posts, because I knew exactly what would and did happen, that he would do everything in his power to ruin the thread.  That fear of having a thread ruined was the censoring power that he had over anyone who was familiar with his posting history.  I would not have applied for owner permissions without this fear in the back of my mind and he was warned about the possibility that his posts could disappear early on in the thread.  I tried out a strategy for allowing for free posting and at the same time maintaining the integrity of my posts by posting around his interference with "bridging" links to my own posts and links and references to others posts that were "under the bridge".

 

The thread was considered interesting and informative by many people here, and eventually some of them asked publicly and privately for me to moderate his content.  I tolerated his attempts to ruin the tread for as long as I could, the final straw was when he posted his intent to get the thread "back on topic", his topic.  At that point I hid 32 posts, slightly over a third of the number of posts in the thread, mostly long rambling posts, quoting secondary sources, most of which would have disagreed, if quoted wholly or in context, with the whole conspiracy worldview which was the basis of his attacks.  What I am most thankful for was the ability to lock the thread so that I did not have to keep monitoring it over and over to "police" its content.  After I closed the thread over 1,000 new "views" (Whatever that means ) were recorded indicating that people were actually interested in my content and commentary.

 

Now, when the idea of owners permissions was first broached I considered it a mistake and said so, and I am still not convinced that it is a good idea in itself, but it certainly worked for me and while I can still see how it can lead to problems, I would have to say it is an imperfect solution in an imperfect world.  No moderators, nor moderation by others would be necessary if people moderated themselves in threads started by other people.

 

Generally speaking the people here are open, curious and tolerant, those few who were not have either been banned or left of their own accord, it may be that this process of self moderation through owners permissions can work, but it certainly won't if it is not given a chance.

 

 

 

 

 

Edit:  Corrected spelling in first paragraph.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Zhongyongdaoist