Best reference books for entheogens, psychotropic, hallucinogenic and poisonous plants?

[Bud Jetsun]

Titles can not be given, only earned.

 

It doesn't matter if you respect the plants now or not. You will respect them soon enough.

[Michael Sternbach]

My advice is simple:

 

Use psychoactive plants with care and make it a "celebration" every time.

 

If you are constantly "celebrating", it will become meaningless and burn you out.

 

As in everything, balance is key.

[DreamBliss]

What´s wrong with reverence? Reverence signals humility, a willingness to enter into a relationship with the plant spirit. With reverence you´re a shaman smoking a peace pipe and connecting through tobacco with unfathomable mystery. Without reverence you´re just another bloke taking a smoke break.

 

Reverence

1. A feeling or attitude of deep respect tinged with awe; veneration.

2. The outward manifestation of this feeling: to pay reverence.

3. A gesture indicative of deep respect; an obeisance, bow, or curtsy.

4. The state of being revered, or treated with respect tinged with awe.

5. A title used in addressing or mentioning a member of the clergy (usually preceded by your or his).

6. To regard or treat with reverence; venerate:

 

I copied this from Dictionary.com and placed in bold the words to which I wanted to draw your attention.

 

It sounds to me like reverence = worship. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

[DreamBliss]

My advice is simple:

 

Use psychoactive plants with care and make it a "celebration" every time.

 

If you are constantly "celebrating", it will become meaningless and burn you out.

 

As in everything, balance is key.

 

???

 

You may wish to re-read this and make some clarifications...

[Michael Sternbach]

 

Reverence

1. A feeling or attitude of deep respect tinged with awe; veneration.

2. The outward manifestation of this feeling: to pay reverence.

3. A gesture indicative of deep respect; an obeisance, bow, or curtsy.

4. The state of being revered, or treated with respect tinged with awe.

5. A title used in addressing or mentioning a member of the clergy (usually preceded by your or his).

6. To regard or treat with reverence; venerate:

 

I copied this from Dictionary.com and placed in bold the words to which I wanted to draw your attention.

 

It sounds to me like reverence = worship. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

 

And aren't those mind blowing plants really awesome?

 

Now you should ask for reverence books!

[Michael Sternbach]

???

 

You may wish to re-read this and make some clarifications...

 

I don't get it.

 

What is not clear enough?

[ilumairen]

???

 

You may wish to re-read this and make some clarifications...

 

"The path of excess leads to the tower of wisdom..."

[DreamBliss]

Titles can not be given, only earned. It doesn't matter if you respect the plants now or not. You will respect them soon enough.

 

CAUTION! Effort (ego) ahead! Carry traction devices at all times...

 

 

We have talked about this subject of effort or work VS allowing in other threads. I would say a true shaman is chosen and given the title. He or she does not earn it by effort (workshop anyone?) It is not something that is necassrily inherited and it is not a right.

 

It is a calling, and the choice is there to answer it or hang up the phone. In my case I was caught so off-guard I didn't hang up the phone and close myself off from probably the best spiritual experiences I have had so far. Experiences which probably helped me leave my former Christian faith.

 

Trying to become something by effort alone is very much like trying to drive your car without traction devices on a thick sheet of ice. You won't get anywhere that way.

Edited January 30, 2016 by DreamBliss

[DreamBliss]

I don't get it.

 

What is not clear enough?

 

You tell me to make using psychoactive plants a celebration, yet in the next sentence you tell me that celebrating will make it meaningless and burn me out.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

My advice is simple:

 

Use psychoactive plants with care and make it a "celebration" every time.

 

If you are constantly "celebrating", it will become meaningless and burn you out.

 

As in everything, balance is key.

 

You tell me to make using psychoactive plants a celebration, yet in the next sentence you tell me that celebrating will make it meaningless and burn me out.

 

 

I highlighted in red the part of the sentence that you didn't understand.

[Michael Sternbach]

"The path of excess leads to the tower of wisdom..."

 

Thank you, ilumairen. Right on the mark.

[Bud Jetsun]

You could learn how to make a tea from your local morning glory flowers that would be as rough as you wanted to make it if you want to challenge Zen tripping skills against a formidable plant and how far today's shaman confidence gets you. (don't actually do that unless you want PTSD and a badly fragmented reality.)

 

By accident one late evening when my wife and I both had to work early in the morning, I dosed us both heavily with the active ingredient in Morning Glory when my intent had been to throw those old capsules away (we both were totally fine never experiencing it's effects again) and enjoy a gentle herbal sedative (I confused the bottles of capsules).  It's a good thing my wife is a brave woman who typically handles rough trips with iron will and a merciful grace.  Still is a hell of a commitment to enter through a simple a unmindful bottle error.  I've been indebted to her care in more than a couple major trips gone a bit rough that she rode through like a tank made from Love and will.  Very special lady who could only have been custom manifested. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[Cookie Monster]

.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Ocean Form

[Michael Sternbach]

Some friends of mine on another forum are quite knowledgeable regarding the use and effects of various psychotropic substances. I found this thread particularly informative:

 

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/showthread.php?4361-How-to-do-psychedelics&s=1fe241f81e121cd7b28be8ea1b4cf1a1

[liminal_luke]

 

Reverence

1. A feeling or attitude of deep respect tinged with awe; veneration.

2. The outward manifestation of this feeling: to pay reverence.

3. A gesture indicative of deep respect; an obeisance, bow, or curtsy.

4. The state of being revered, or treated with respect tinged with awe.

5. A title used in addressing or mentioning a member of the clergy (usually preceded by your or his).

6. To regard or treat with reverence; venerate:

 

I copied this from Dictionary.com and placed in bold the words to which I wanted to draw your attention.

 

It sounds to me like reverence = worship. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

I think I get it. You don´t want to revere the plants because that implies a power differential, that the plants are somehow above you and deserving of worship. You will not bow down. I´m exquisitely attuned to issues around power and control myself, and loathe to put myself in a one-down position. I´ve been beaten down quite enough by people who think they are better than me, thank you very much. Perhaps you have too?

 

So why am I OK with being reverent, even worshipful, towards a plant? Because in allowing myself to be made small, I become, paradoxically, larger than I was. Surrendering my ego, I am lifted up. Letting go of my brittle boundaries and my sometimes overly strident insistence on justice and fairness, I open to love.

 

Bottom line: I know I´m there to learn from the plant; the plant is not there to learn from me.

Edited January 30, 2016 by liminal_luke

[ralis]

I think I get it. You don´t want to revere the plants because that implies a power differential, that the plants are somehow above you and deserving of worship. You will not bow down. I´m exquisitely attuned to issues around power and control myself, and loathe to put myself in a one-down position. I´ve been beaten down quite enough by people who think they are better than me, thank you very much. Perhaps you have too?

 

So why am I OK with being reverent, even worshipful, towards a plant? Because in allowing myself to be made small, I become, paradoxically, larger than I was. Surrendering my ego, I am lifted up. Letting go of my brittle boundaries and my sometimes overly strident insistence on justice and fairness, I open to love.

 

Bottom line: I know I´m there to learn from the plant; the plant is not there to learn from me.

 

The plants in question were evolving here long before humans entered the picture and Terrence McKenna states his research on this subject in one of his books. The mistaken ideology that humans are special creatures on the evolutionary tree is problematic at best.

Edited January 30, 2016 by ralis

[doc benway]

I wasn't originally going to respond but I re-read your post and I do think there are a few more points worth making.

 

Hoah boy... Can you hear me sighing way over here?

 

I was responding to this, "Yes, and to gain the knowledge of how to use it properly requires an apprenticeship to an experienced curandera. It's not something one can learn from books. One needs to be invited and introduced and, if accepted, then spend a lifetime developing a relationship to the spirits. It is not to be taken casually."

 

That is the "leave it to the authorities" (or dogmatic, if you prefer) vibe I was referring to and sensing from your words. I was trying to express that training from an experience curandera or shaman is not required. Invitations and introductions are not required. A lifetime developing a relationship to the spirits is not required. Also you can learn from books, and you can take this subject causally.

It's not so much that I suggest we leave it to the authorities as much as we can learn from those authorities and benefit from their knowledge and experience. Yes, none of that is required but the outcome of our meeting with the teachers (the plants) will be affected by the circumstances of that meeting. A casual approach and a reverent approach will yield very different results. It is not so much about the plant as it is about our intention as you've already picked up on.

 

 

By saying all this stuff is required you set it on some pedestal and it becomes a sort of golden idol for you. It takes on religious overtones, and I am trying, desperately, to steer you away from that. This is not something holy, It is not some Ark of the Covenant that if you touch it you will die. It is not greater than you. Why do you think Zen came into being? It was a direct response to Buddhism becoming yet another religion. And now Zen is suffering the same fate.

Please do not steer me away from what is working for me. I spent many years not understanding the value of reverence and the meaning of holiness. That has changed for me. If you don't want to go there, fine. Do it your way. Please don't impose limitations on me.

 

If I am not looking for something greater than me (the me I think I am) then why bother with any of this at all? Of course we are looking for something greater, otherwise what's the point? Eventually we realize who we truly are and see that we, in fact, are that very "thing" which is greater. That is when we may realize the meaning of holy and feel true reverence and gratitude. I've never studied Zen but I know a few advanced Zen practitioners and while they may be playful, irreverent, and maintain a sense of humor (as do the Tibetan masters I know), they are no strangers to feelings of awe, devotion, gratitude, and reverence. The key is not to get stuck on that, not to get attached to it - kill the Buddha that you meet in the road.

 

 

All these ceremonies, reverential attitudes, worshiping - its all complete and utter crap. It obscures the very heart of the practice. It makes each person dependent on others in their spiritual path, instead of allowing them to experience God for themselves. It creates converts, which is (literally in the Christan sense) another word for sheep.

I disagree. Perhaps it is crap to you at this moment, and I respect that. It was for me once. Not anymore - once again, please don't impose your limitations on me. It doesn't make me dependent, it allows me to open and take advantage of the support of others. I walked a solo path for a very long time and ran into a dead end. Opening myself to the support of a teacher and lineage have helped me to get past that. Of course, we all have to experience "God" for ourselves, no one can ever do it for us. We all need different things at different times in our life. I think it's important to respect that. 

 

 

 

I am not against learning from a teacher. In fact the opposite is true, I would rather learn from a teacher than a book! But I have no teacher, as I have said over and over and over again around here. I have books. So I make due with what I have. And while I will not be disrespectful, because I am also not stupid, I am not going to go wash myself with frikkin' holy water, put on a clean white robe, and burn sage around my person, all because of some misguided sense that any of this has to be taken seriously!

 

You know I read a coupe of Ram Dass's books, how he found his master and kissed his feet, and I suppose this is the sort of thing one does when one takes all this seriously. But I remember thinking how utterly gross and stupid that was. I can't help but have some criticism and judgment here. Maybe one day I will see differently. But for now I see it as a man is a man is a man, and has to wipe his arse like everyone else, no matter how enlightened he or she may be.

It's OK for you to feel that way. It doesn't offend me at all. I understand it and used to feel the same way.

 

There is a very common misunderstanding of reverence and devotion. The cultivation of reverence and devotion have nothing to do with the object of veneration. It is all about subjugating and disassembling the ego. The other side you yearn for is what is beyond the limitation of that ego. The reason to use entheogens is to enlist their aid in helping us to transcend those same limitations. This is the exact role of veneration and devotion. We do prostrations to subjugate our own ego, our arrogance, the very boundaries you wish to transcend. We do offerings to generate gratitude and generosity, feelings that indicate a loosening of the grasp of ego. There is the practice of chöd which is literally to offer one's own body, a cutting of the ego's attachment to the body.

 

The difference is that entheogens act on the ego in a very sudden, violent, and potentially damaging way. This is why approaching them with sincere feelings of gratitude, devotion, and reverence are helpful. They help soften the harshness of that impact. Again, it is all about what is happening in us, not in the plant. The religious practices that your ego so despises do the same thing in a more gradual, gentle, and progressive way. The ego does not want to give itself up easily. That's why the idea of subjugating oneself, kissing someone's feet for example, is so distasteful. Once in the grip of the plant spirit, we have no choice. It makes kissing someone's foot seem like a party. Both work in their unique ways and each of us needs different things in our lives at different times. 

 

 

I apologize for my harsh tone here. It is not my intention to offend you. I am just expressing myself as clearly as possible. Maybe you can see why I was drawn to Zen... Being casual and disrespectful is a part of my spiritual practice...

No need to apologize. I'm not offended and we're OK. I get where you're coming from and I try not to take things too seriously or personally. While I may sound very serious in my writings, I'm actually pretty laid back and playful in real life. I find that harder to express in writing.

 

Zen is great and effective for some folks. I guess it wasn't right for you otherwise there would be no need for plants. 

I will again caution you, however, that being "casual and disrespectful" as a part of your spiritual practice may not serve you so well working with the plant teachers. They are not always so forgiving.

 

I'd also like to acknowledge the many wonderful posts on this thread from multiple contributors.

[doc benway]

 

We have talked about this subject of effort or work VS allowing in other threads. I would say a true shaman is chosen and given the title. He or she does not earn it by effort (workshop anyone?) It is not something that is necassrily inherited and it is not a right.

 

It is a calling, and the choice is there to answer it or hang up the phone. In my case I was caught so off-guard I didn't hang up the phone and close myself off from probably the best spiritual experiences I have had so far. Experiences which probably helped me leave my former Christian faith.

 

Trying to become something by effort alone is very much like trying to drive your car without traction devices on a thick sheet of ice. You won't get anywhere that way.

 

There is a role for effort and a role for allowing.

In the indigenous communities, the shaman first serves as apprentice for a long time - much effort involved.

Once the foundation is established, then and only then can one let go of the effort.

If no effort is exerted from the very beginning, it's unlikely the novice will make much progress.

 

It's exactly the same in meditation, martial arts, just about any experiential discipline. 

[ralis]

There is a role for effort and a role for allowing.

In the indigenous communities, the shaman first serves as apprentice for a long time - much effort involved.

Once the foundation is established, then and only then can one let go of the effort.

If no effort is exerted from the very beginning, it's unlikely the novice will make much progress.

 

It's exactly the same in meditation, martial arts, just about any experiential discipline. 

 

I would also add that shamans are tested by NDE's, poisoning and other trials that would mean certain death to most, as discussed by Mircea Eliade. Shamans are able to communicate with and also use entheogens and other herbaceous plants as medicine, by means of underworld travel to the plant or spirit realm.

[Nungali]

What´s wrong with reverence? Reverence signals humility, a willingness to enter into a relationship with the plant spirit. With reverence you´re a shaman smoking a peace pipe and connecting through tobacco with unfathomable mystery. Without reverence you´re just another bloke taking a smoke break.

 

 

Or .... I will try God-damn anything to get me out of this mental loop I am stuck in . 

[Nungali]

My advice is simple:

 

Use psychoactive plants with care and make it a "celebration" every time.

 

If you are constantly "celebrating", it will become meaningless and burn you out.

 

As in everything, balance is key.

 

 

Good advice. I suggest taking it further ...    after each 'experience' have a significant period of 'straigntness' to let the experience 'bed in' and become incorporated into your 'normal' psyche.  

 

Dumping one trip on top of another before the previous is 'integrated'   can turn you into a 'shroom boomer'  * .  

 

 

* Friend at Lismore ; ' I dont pick up 'shroom boomers' hitch hiking anymore , last one I picked up, sat in the back seat for half an hour, never said a word then jumped out as soon as I  stopped at the first intersection in town . I said to the wife 'That guy was weird '.  She said 'Did you see what he was doing in the back seat  ? '  No, what ?   'He had his hand through the travel strap was holding it also with his other hand and gnawing on his knuckles .'   Now look what the bastard has done to my travel strap....'  he had a much loved old Rover, he showed me the travel strap, which clips up over the back door,   it looked like a dog had been chewing it .

 

PS , if you are driving up the north coast do not  pick up that one that looks like he is dressed in thick layers of clothes with bare legs sticking out the bottom, a weird multi hat headdress with feathers and a spring with a mini soccer ball attached to the spring   nooooooo ...   dont do that  !  

[Nungali]

 

Reverence

1. A feeling or attitude of deep respect tinged with awe; veneration.

2. The outward manifestation of this feeling: to pay reverence.

3. A gesture indicative of deep respect; an obeisance, bow, or curtsy.

4. The state of being revered, or treated with respect tinged with awe.

5. A title used in addressing or mentioning a member of the clergy (usually preceded by your or his).

6. To regard or treat with reverence; venerate:

 

I copied this from Dictionary.com and placed in bold the words to which I wanted to draw your attention.

 

It sounds to me like reverence = worship. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

 

 

In many places a judge is referred to as 'your honour' ... however here, a local magistrate should be addressed as 'your worship'. 

 

'Your honour' seems fair enough, seeings as their business is supposedly honesty .....

 

but imagine defending yourself in court and having to appeal to 'your worship '          

[Nungali]

 I would say a true shaman is chosen and given the title. He or she does not earn it by effort (workshop anyone?) It is not something that is necassrily inherited and it is not a right.

 

A real shaman knows he has to earn it ..... what do you think the shaman's initiation is all about ?   Encountering forces that may destroy you or rip you psychically apart, having your organs removed and eaten, having your bones removed and replaced with iron ones, how to control animal spirit possessions ,  having quartz crystal rods inserted into your chakras .... and so on, whether in real or dream states ... you think it doesnt have to be earned ???

 

Carefull there little fox ? 

 

 

 

It is a calling, and the choice is there to answer it or hang up the phone. In my case I was caught so off-guard I didn't hang up the phone and close myself off from probably the best spiritual experiences I have had so far. Experiences which probably helped me leave my former Christian faith.

 

Trying to become something by effort alone is very much like trying to drive your car without traction devices on a thick sheet of ice. You won't get anywhere that way.

 

It is not 'effort alone' but that doesnt mean one ignores the effort required .  What good are snow chains and ice spikes if the wheels are not turning in the first place ... it ( in your own example) is all about the correct application of effort ... in my observations, over time, and throughout many 'esoteric fields' you tend to approach you  seem to be the one spinning your tyres ....    it is a 'calling' in a way but not just  a calling . Any real path of shamanism - you will be tested and you have to earn it . 

 

Unless its some fake type of new-age ,shallow,  ego - ' shamanism ' .   Or a 'self - imagined shamanism '   (  read ; 'self - made ' ) . 

[Nungali]

You tell me to make using psychoactive plants a celebration, yet in the next sentence you tell me that celebrating will make it meaningless and burn me out.

 

 

 

Ohhh Gawd .... here we go again ...

 

 

DB !  ;

 

 

" If you are constantly "celebrating", it will become meaningless and burn you out. "

 

 

 

 

(see how your glasses snipe is rebounding ?   So busy thinking we cant see what is happening, you could not see  parts of  the sentence !  )

[Nungali]

You could learn how to make a tea from your local morning glory flowers that would be as rough as you wanted to make it if you want to challenge Zen tripping skills against a formidable plant and how far today's shaman confidence gets you. (don't actually do that unless you want PTSD and a badly fragmented reality.)

 

By accident one late evening when my wife and I both had to work early in the morning, I dosed us both heavily with the active ingredient in Morning Glory when my intent had been to throw those old capsules away (we both were totally fine never experiencing it's effects again) and enjoy a gentle herbal sedative (I confused the bottles of capsules).  It's a good thing my wife is a brave woman who typically handles rough trips with iron will and a merciful grace.  Still is a hell of a commitment to enter through a simple a unmindful bottle error.  I've been indebted to her care in more than a couple major trips gone a bit rough that she rode through like a tank made from Love and will.  Very special lady who could only have been custom manifested. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud