WeiChi and AI and a bit precursor on Chess

[shanlung]

A major milestone was just passed recently.

 

There is this thread in a forum far far away almost in another galaxy.

discusstruth.com/threads/do-you-play-chess.315/page-2

 

That thread was on Chess which I rudely interrupted on 19 Aug 2015 warning them all not to be stupid and get into chess.  A position also agreed to by the Saudi Grand Mufti Abdul Aziz bin-Abdullah  who issued a religious fatwa declaring that chess  is forbidden for Muslims because it is 'a waste of time' and promotes gambling.  He added: 'The game of chess is a waste of time... it causes enmity and hatred between people.'

 

Plagiarised from what I wrote:

 

That is about the worse thing you have done in your life.
Get out of chess before the addiction really kicks in.

For those with morbid curiosity what chess is about.

Modes of flight of Riamfada and comparison to Tinkerbell //Some chess memories, hustler foil, Bali
http://shanlung.livejournal.com/104619.html

 

Then the talk went on into chess openings and if I play people face to face

 

Playing face to face as below?
The chess board physical enough for you?

from HOMO SAPIENS NON URINAT IN VENTUM
http://shanlung.livejournal.com/102154.html

And I was there again in March and June 2015
Those guys there know me very well as a person who periodically turn up sometimes kicking arses and sometimes
to demonstrate how to snatch defeat from jaws of victory



I used to be fascinated by openings. Wasted money and time going deeper and deeper into it.
There must be about 20,000 book openings to go into instead of smelling roses and living whatever is left of my life

Then again, in just the first 2 moves in the chess game, there are 160,000 possibilities
and in just he first 3 moves in the chess game, there are 64,000,000 possibilities or openings

And in the first 4 moves in the chess game, you have 25,6000,000,000 possibilities.
And that is just the first 4 moves. Openings can go to 8-9-11 moves. Even more than that 25 billions. 

So what can I hope even if I could remember the 20,000 book openings against 25,6000,000,000 possible openings? You agree that is not even a grain of sand in a beach of sand 100 miles long

I believe so much better to focus on the fundamentals, develop the pieces to maximise their vectorial movements and control of the center. And go with the Tao and flow with the game

I only need to remember that. And being an Idiot, remembering less things meant I less likely to blunder. And all the good things I can remember cannot undo any of the blunder.

 

Let us remember that at any opening, at any point within that opening, the numbers I quote above to you apply.

So in the 2nd move of say the Ruy Lopez, just 2 more moves into that will 160,000 possibilities and 3 moves from that to be 64 k k possiblities.
The most exhaustive study of just the R L will not even scratch the surface of RL

Let us say a tiny fraction of 64 k k are good possibilities, let say 1 in 1000. You still looking at 64 k. And openings can go 6-7 moves deep

Can one reasonably remember all of that? Maybe for GMs and IMs. Not for people like me.
And then what about the King's Indian, or Sicilian Closed and Sicilian Open. And Kings Gambit/Queens Gambit and Alekhine Defense etc etc etc etc

As said, remember the fundamentals and ground yourself well in that. Go into battle with no fear of death. Like what Jap Samurai have in mind.
"I allow you to cut my skin provided I cut into your flesh. I allow you to cut into my flesh provided I cut you through to the bone"

And what if my allowing you to cut me to the bone which is a pretense as I then will cut off your head.

Also remember positional advantage get you to a favourable end game. But before the end game, God (or the Tao) put in the middle game.

 

 

I then touched  on WeiChi, which you folks might know better by the Japanese name of Go

 

 

 

In checkers, your pieces still move. And if you queen that piece, the movement to that piece expand even much more.

In weichi, or better known in West as Go, the pieces are the same (other than black or white) and the pieces do not even move after they are placed down.

And yet, the most profound of board games, and even much more profound and complex than chess is Wei Chi.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(game)

Go (simplified Chinese: 围棋; traditional Chinese: 圍棋; pinyin: wéiqí, Japanese: 囲碁 igo,[nb 2] literal meaning: "encircling game", Korean: 바둑 baduk[nb 3]) is a board game involving two players, that originated inancient China more than 2,500 years ago. It was considered one of thefour essential arts of a cultured Chinese scholar in antiquity. The earliest written reference to the game is generally recognized as the historical annal Zuo Zhuan[2][3] (c. 4th century BC).[4]

There is significant strategy involved in the game, and the number of possible games is vast (10^^761 compared, for example, to the estimated 10^^120 possible in chess),[5] despite its relatively simple rules.

The two players alternately place black and white playing pieces, called "stones", on the vacant intersections ("points") of a board with a 19x19grid of lines. Beginners often play on smaller 9×9 and 13×13 boards,[6] and archaeological evidence shows that game was played in earlier centuries on a board with a 17×17 grid. By the time the game had spread to Korea and Japan in about the 5th and 7th centuries CErespectively, however, boards with a 19×19 grid had become standard.[7]

The objective of the game—as the translation of its name implies—is to have surrounded a larger total area of the board with one's stones than the opponent by the end of the game,[8] although this result typically involves many more intricacies than simply using surrounding areas directly.

Once placed on the board, stones may not be moved, but stones may be removed from the board if captured—this is done by surrounding an opposing stone or group of stones by occupying all orthogonally-adjacent points.[9] The two players place stones alternately until they reach a point at which neither player wishes to make another move; the game has no set ending conditions beyond this. When a game concludes, the territory is counted along with captured stones and komi (points added to the score of the player with the white stones as compensation for playing second) to determine the winner.[10] Games may also be won by resignation.

You see in above for WeiChi, the possibilities are 10 power of 761 against chess possibilities of 10^^ 120

I got a bit into WeiChi when I was working and living in Taiwan and then in South Korea.
I drew back from that abyss as what if I got better in that and would I find the time to get deeper into that especially with my addiction to International Chess?

WeiChi is enchanting and mesmerising. Even more than the other variation of chess which is Chinese Chess. I also drew back from Chinese Chess. Something very difficult as C C is also very enchanting and magical. In CC , you got almost immediatly into the middle game and where knights can be crippled and canon exist and only can work if there is an intermediate piece (regardless if your piece or enemy piece) for the canon to fire over.

One measure of the complexity in WeiChi is that we have chess computer programs that can trash Chess Grand Masters even many years ago.

Despite lots of efforts, the best of WeiChi program can only win against the best of human GMs only when given handicaps. It is believed that only in the distant future can computer WeiChi approach humans, and even so, provided true AI been reached.

 

 

I wrote above in Aug 26 2015.  I did not expect a Go program about to take on top rank in Go for some years still.

 

I was wrong.

A major milestone was reached in WeiChi or Go and AI

Google DeepMind's AlphaGo beat the European Go champion at the complex ancient Chinese game.

 

It was a very delightful shock to find a Go program made a GM equivalent in Go bite the dust.

 

He was not the top Go GM, only the European Champion.  But nonetheless..... 

 

I will wait and see in March 2016 when that program takes on the World top Go Grandmaster Lee Seudol in Korea

 

Idiotic Taoist shock and lost for words

[thelerner]

 

That thread was on Chess which I rudely interrupted on 19 Aug 2015 warning them all not to be stupid and get into chess.  A position also agreed to by the Saudi Grand Mufti Abdul Aziz bin-Abdullah  who issued a religious fatwa declaring that chess  is forbidden for Muslims because it is 'a waste of time' and promotes gambling.  He added: 'The game of chess is a waste of time... it causes enmity and hatred between people.'

Wonder what they'd say about Monopoly?  Which has torn many a family asunder as father, mother and sibling are crushed penniless before a siblings lucky dice.  .

 

Lots of possibilities in chess, but in truth modern play logic, which my son has and I don't, quickly ends many lines of play due to theoretically poor position.   With a 19 x 19 grid, Go tends to be open up more intuitive situations but even then there are joseki's, patterns of moves that have historically better outcomes.   My Aikido sensei always used to say he could tell someones native country by the way they played Go. 

[mostly_empty]

Idiotic Taoist shock and lost for words

 

It was bound to happen eventually!

 

However, it is not what the software knows

that determines how this game goes

There is an underlying structure from math

algorithms can exploit this - don't laugh

It doesn't mean that the software is smart

it means that you can follow instructions without heart...

[shanlung]

 

There is significant strategy involved in the game, and the number of possible games is vast (10^^761 compared, for example, to the estimated 10^^120 possible in chess),[5] despite its relatively simple rules.

 

 

That number 10^^761  will be more than the number of atoms, the number of quarks, higgs leptons and neutrinos in our entire Universe.  Calling that mind boggling is sheer simplification.

 

I honestly thought a true AI must come about first.  Of profound wisdom which might even be able to tell us what is the Tao and Te.  And which might happen to win the top champion in WeiChi.

 

So far that is not here yet.  But Mar 2016 is around the corner and we will see then if Lee Sedol  keel over at the foot of AlphaGo.

 

That will be electrifying to me and Weichi Go fans and to the entire computing community.