Realization undermining life force

[Orion]

Not sure how to phrase this, so bear with me.

 

Considering all the highs and lows and the spiritual experiences, I've been made unusually prepared to let everything go. It may turn out that I underestimate this, but... the gratitude of being shown these things has humbled me to the point of willing acceptance. I can accept more than most people I've met, not a lot phases me. A lot of this has been brought on by suffering and agony, which perhaps nobody should have to keep taking past a certain point... but I digress.

 

My experiences so far have been very dissolving. On the one hand it has felt dangerous because it undermines all ambition and life force. It's like learning in advance how to die feeds too much into the death drive built into every human being. It may even implant, at a subconscious level, a desire to die, not out of suicide but out of dissolution, because the psyche is trying to come to terms with the truth of its own redundancy.

 

This is a deeply existential quandary.

 

On the other hand I'd personally rather feel freed of all the extraneous bullshit relatively young, rather than work my ass off my whole life for some rat race because of living in the shadow of the fear of death as a means to keep achieving. But the bigger burden seems to be that often others care for me more than I do for myself -- not that I hate myself or dislike myself, but I'm just overly accepting and risk taking.

 

It seems defeatist, but that may not be the right word to put on this. Not to make too fine a point, but it seems that if you have anything left to give, then fight, otherwise stop swimming against the current. Just be the inevitable movement of the Dao that goes on and on endlessly.

 

The dissolution is overwhelming at times. Everything I look at in the world, my own reflection, in the eyes of the people talking to me, in the wind that blows through the trees, in the rain, I see the Dao. All one thing, doing itself endlessly. Out of control, beyond tampering.

 

I don't really know what remains, whether it's an ego game or just pure being in the energy field of all that is, but as long as I am not unconscious there must be some heavy cognitive dissonance going on. What I know is that the feeling is in my body, it taps every centre. It's with me when I meditate, or go grocery shopping, talking to a friend, etc. The feeling never leaves. And no it's not merely being ungrounded.

 

There is a deep seed within me that urges me to not rest too long in this state, that somehow there is something beyond this, even though I can't see how that's possible right now. It's almost too yin. I could sit on a park bench for the rest of my life watching the world do its dance or I could go start a fortune 500 company, it would make no difference.

 

Am I in a spiritual trap?

[Michael Sternbach]

Hi Orion,

 

For how long have you been in this state?

[3bob]

Orion, I'd say keep your options open...new developments can come when least expected or in unexpected ways.

 

Dissolution is a tough one when generalized in a fatalistic way...  remember the life force is not denied even by the dissolution of the universe of things since It always rises anew.

 

I have dozens of decent platitudes that I could offer for your consideration but they probably wouldn't help much if your back is against the wall?

 

It all basically boils down to be being a warrior of or for Spirit in our own way for our own being and when possible being a help to other's, for there really is no other way to stand against the forces that would steal, harm or corrupt over and over again.    There are billions of us in the same boat of this world and none of us are alone in it's spiritual storms even if it seems like it,  so if we keep holding on and reaching out then you and I will also be reached to, for that is an unbreakable fact.

 

Lets hold our heads up again and see that there is more to the story than just the shadows of doubt on the ground.

Take care man

[Jeff]

Hi Orion,

 

What you are describing often happens when one has broken through to a deeper layer of consciousness. Kind of like it is a big open and disconnected space. But, as more subconscious issues and fears are cleared, more energy at that depth is freed up and with the increased energy flows, new forms of engagement make sense and fit again.

 

Also, you are correct that it can be sort of a trap, and often people declare "done" at such a point. But, after a rest, often "curiosity" often starts to return and one is nudged again out of the bubble (which seems what might be happening with you now).

 

Maybe think of like you are climbing at higher altitudes and find that the air is so thin that you can't breathe... After a while you get used to the thinner air, and then can continue your hike.

 

 

Best,

Jeff

Edited January 30, 2016 by Jeff

[Karl]

Not sure how to phrase this, so bear with me.

 

Considering all the highs and lows and the spiritual experiences, I've been made unusually prepared to let everything go. It may turn out that I underestimate this, but... the gratitude of being shown these things has humbled me to the point of willing acceptance. I can accept more than most people I've met, not a lot phases me. A lot of this has been brought on by suffering and agony, which perhaps nobody should have to keep taking past a certain point... but I digress.

 

My experiences so far have been very dissolving. On the one hand it has felt dangerous because it undermines all ambition and life force. It's like learning in advance how to die feeds too much into the death drive built into every human being. It may even implant, at a subconscious level, a desire to die, not out of suicide but out of dissolution, because the psyche is trying to come to terms with the truth of its own redundancy.

 

This is a deeply existential quandary.

 

On the other hand I'd personally rather feel freed of all the extraneous bullshit relatively young, rather than work my ass off my whole life for some rat race because of living in the shadow of the fear of death as a means to keep achieving. But the bigger burden seems to be that often others care for me more than I do for myself -- not that I hate myself or dislike myself, but I'm just overly accepting and risk taking.

 

It seems defeatist, but that may not be the right word to put on this. Not to make too fine a point, but it seems that if you have anything left to give, then fight, otherwise stop swimming against the current. Just be the inevitable movement of the Dao that goes on and on endlessly.

 

The dissolution is overwhelming at times. Everything I look at in the world, my own reflection, in the eyes of the people talking to me, in the wind that blows through the trees, in the rain, I see the Dao. All one thing, doing itself endlessly. Out of control, beyond tampering.

 

I don't really know what remains, whether it's an ego game or just pure being in the energy field of all that is, but as long as I am not unconscious there must be some heavy cognitive dissonance going on. What I know is that the feeling is in my body, it taps every centre. It's with me when I meditate, or go grocery shopping, talking to a friend, etc. The feeling never leaves. And no it's not merely being ungrounded.

 

There is a deep seed within me that urges me to not rest too long in this state, that somehow there is something beyond this, even though I can't see how that's possible right now. It's almost too yin. I could sit on a park bench for the rest of my life watching the world do its dance or I could go start a fortune 500 company, it would make no difference.

 

Am I in a spiritual trap?

 

Yes and you have recognised it.

Cognitive nihilism. Go killing your mind and it will eventually swim in a state of pleasant torpor. However, a sense of unease always exists and cannot be denied. Eventually the mind will reassert itself. No matter how many times you think you brought it to stillness.

 

[thetaoiseasy]

You say it doesn't make a difference whether you sit on the park bench for the next 30 years or enter the rat race.  Then why write the OP? You would do whatever, with complete ease and without doubt. 

Edited January 31, 2016 by thetaoiseasy

[Aetherous]

It sounds simply like a deep seated grief. I know that's a really simple and perhaps thoughtless response...but perhaps it's true.

To me, legitimate spirituality looks much more positive and life-affirming. It doesn't take us into negative states of being, which is what this seems to be.

Unfortunately, most of supposed spiritual and philosophic thought and practice do take us into negative states. We have to ask ourselves, what are we truly cultivating here? Perhaps those teachings aren't the true way, and we should drop them in favor of cultivating better things.

[Orion]

It sounds simply like a deep seated grief. I know that's a really simple and perhaps thoughtless response...but perhaps it's true.

 

To me, legitimate spirituality looks much more positive and life-affirming. It doesn't take us into negative states of being, which is what this seems to be.

 

Unfortunately, most of supposed spiritual and philosophic thought and practice do take us into negative states. We have to ask ourselves, what are we truly cultivating here? Perhaps those teachings aren't the true way, and we should drop them in favor of cultivating better things.

 

I have to reflect more on this. Can't deny that grief is in the mix, but eventually even grief bottoms out. I do need to know if I'm stuck in a negative state or not, as it does feel rather nihilistic. At least I know I'm not beyond the pale because I can recognize what's happening.

 

I don't know what's being cultivated here. Yesterday I received chemotherapy to perhaps save my life, after a year of other methods didn't sustain. I'm at a major crossroads.

 

While I was in the car being driven to the hospital, I was just enjoying the sound of the rain on the window, and watching the world go by. It seems like the closer I get to death the more in love with everything I am, not that I'm truly dying right now.

 

At this point I see no difference between the word "cultivation" and the word "choice". Choosing to exercise this sublime freedom in any way we wish, we might as well choose something life affirming. But it doesn't change the fact that no matter what I do, the free fall is constant.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Orion

[Orion]

You say it doesn't make a difference whether you sit on the park bench for the next 30 years or enter the rat race.  Then why write the OP? You would do whatever, with complete ease and without doubt. 

 

Because I don't want to waste this opportunity, if wasting it is possible. Hence advice seeking.

[Aetherous]

While I was in the car being driven to the hospital, I was just enjoying the sound of the rain on the window, and watching the world go by. It seems like the closer I get to death the more in love with everything I am, not that I'm truly dying right now.

 

I know what you mean. Coming to terms with our mortality opens our eyes and hearts to the immediate life...not that we should constantly reflect on our imminent demise, imo, but it does have this slightly positive effect. I'm glad to hear that you aren't truly dying and that you're doing chemotherapy, to hopefully solve your issue. It may very well be the case that the issue has significantly played into this mental-emotional state you're in. It's something that has seemed to be out of your control, which overwhelms, which threatens to take things from you...that can possibly cause grief.

 

The simple things in life are great, such as the sound of rain on the window. These little things can be so healing...even in times when all hope is lost and there is only chaos, those simple things can still be there to bring us relief and joy. As hard as life can be, because of these things, it is still a gift that we love.

 

Part of cultivation can be focusing more on those simple things, or bringing them more into our lives (for instance, by living in a room that allows for the sound of rain, or light curtains that move with the breeze, more sunlight reflected through the house...versus living in a basement room or something). It can be interesting to make a list of all of the subtly pleasurable things in life, and then consciously surround ourselves with those things as much as we can.

 

At this point I see no difference between the word "cultivation" and the word "choice". Choosing to exercise this sublime freedom in any way we wish, we might as well choose something life affirming. But it doesn't change the fact that no matter what I do, the free fall is constant.

 

Imagine a little kid...they don't think of their lives as being like a free fall (toward death and loss) no matter what they do. There is possibility, adventure, things to see and do and become, etc. Things to enjoy and be excited about. Play. It's the same for you, still. The choice or cultivation is in what kind of view we have of life and reality...do we view it as an almost meaningless yet subtly pleasurable hopeless free fall toward destruction...or do we see it as a fun possibility, where we can do things that we want and become who we decide?

[3bob]

the energy that powers sadness can also power gladness, it's ultimately our choice although there is much in the way of energy patterns and flows that can become engrained and which need to be re-patterned or re-flowed.  Many of the sayings about how the depth of sorrow is related to heights of joy are along such lines... thus being of the same wattage... but being used to drive either a sadness motor or joy motor.  (with a sadness motor being easier to run in a way since its driving downhill and will take a will guided by a central truth to turn it around)

[Orion]

I know what you mean. Coming to terms with our mortality opens our eyes and hearts to the immediate life...not that we should constantly reflect on our imminent demise, imo, but it does have this slightly positive effect. I'm glad to hear that you aren't truly dying and that you're doing chemotherapy, to hopefully solve your issue. It may very well be the case that the issue has significantly played into this mental-emotional state you're in. It's something that has seemed to be out of your control, which overwhelms, which threatens to take things from you...that can possibly cause grief.

 

The simple things in life are great, such as the sound of rain on the window. These little things can be so healing...even in times when all hope is lost and there is only chaos, those simple things can still be there to bring us relief and joy. As hard as life can be, because of these things, it is still a gift that we love.

 

Part of cultivation can be focusing more on those simple things, or bringing them more into our lives (for instance, by living in a room that allows for the sound of rain, or light curtains that move with the breeze, more sunlight reflected through the house...versus living in a basement room or something). It can be interesting to make a list of all of the subtly pleasurable things in life, and then consciously surround ourselves with those things as much as we can.

 

 

Imagine a little kid...they don't think of their lives as being like a free fall (toward death and loss) no matter what they do. There is possibility, adventure, things to see and do and become, etc. Things to enjoy and be excited about. Play. It's the same for you, still. The choice or cultivation is in what kind of view we have of life and reality...do we view it as an almost meaningless yet subtly pleasurable hopeless free fall toward destruction...or do we see it as a fun possibility, where we can do things that we want and become who we decide?

 

Yes, I get this. I guess I focused too much on this specific situation in my last post, which kind of drew us into a scenario. What I'm trying to describe is the sense of inner spaciousness I feel, the calm in each moment, even in those little, simple things. But it's even in the presence of those big things. The spaciousness comes with me wherever I go, it's not merely grief.

 

In relation to that, the spaciousness seems to be overwhelming. There's not enough mind, individuation, or ego anymore. Most people have the opposite problem... they think and think, or constantly take action. Mind is very strong. For me the spaciousness is almost all consuming to the point that there is no will because the spaciousness is so calm and peaceful that it requires nothing to be added or removed. Does this make sense? The world of "stuff" is hard for me to deal with because the overwhelming spaciousness has perhaps softened my ego too much, or something? (Please don't take my words literally I'm being metaphorical.)

 

I'm in a more critical situation right now but the past 5 months I was in remission and super healthy. Still I was dealing with this issue. I suppose it could be some form of PTSD, but I doubt it. I feel possibilities and spaciousness but somehow it doesn't engender me to "become" anything. That's why I question where this undermining of life force comes from. Why is this sense of inner freedom not freeing up my energy?

 

The grief comes in because the spaciousness sometimes feel heartbreaking, like there's nothing to reach out and grasp for, it all slips away. *That* is something I'd like to change... to see it more joyfully and dive into the possibilities. Maybe if I recover and get my vitality back, it would be easier to see that. However the spaciousness itself -- that never leaves. It's in my body.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Orion

[seekingbuddha]

Wonderful to see your state of mind.   I do not think this is PTSD in your case.  I think a trauma can lead to one of 2 things:

1. Negative states of mind, like  Denial / depression / anger / PTSD etc.
2. A trigger  that  tells us "hey, wake up and see through the fog of life".

I would bet you fall under the second category.  It has been my experience that,  the deeper I delve into the  mind and unleash  this tranquility,   the  deeper rooted  sufferings (that i have been withstanding for decades)   come upto the  surface.  Then,  i  need to  deal  with tremendous  amount of sufferings that i have been burying inside me (like you, i have an above average capacity to withstand suffering, and hence put up with more than i needed to, in life).   Life and death  do not seem  to matter anymore, at some point.  When you feel  the ebbing away of the life force within,  do not dwell  on it - do not be in that rut.  I think  it is natural that as we get older, many of us  instinctively & consciously feel that decrease of life-force.  

 

It helps if you have faith in after life / rebirth etc.  Then, you can say that whatever you do or think from now on, will have "goodness as basis"  (because this will result in a good rebirth).  Spend your time reading or contemplating spiritual books/teachings.   You  need something  that your  mind  can cling to,  and strive towards.   So, i suggest  that you cling  to the  higher teachings  of   truly enlightened  beings.   Read  their words  (like  Milerapa's  songs or  Carl  Jung or  J.Krishnamurthi or whoever else you like).  In the absence of no clinging,  you are experiencing  that  spaciousness and tranquility.   Nothing wrong with it. As long as your  remaining time is  being  spent  for the well-being of yourself  OR  for others.  You are simply  dealing with the suffering  that is deep within you,  and  it is better that your deal with it now, rather than carry it over to the next life  (assuming  that there is a next rebirth).   Perhaps,  craving  for  bliss or  joy  is  creating  the dilemma,  this  puzzle.  In fact, i  feel that  this  spaciousness,   stability  & tranquility  that you feel  may have subtle undertones of  peace and acceptance;  in fact  this maybe  better than the  ups & downs of   joy and sorrow.  (If there is joy, it can not last forever ?)   It maybe  highly  beneficial  to talk openly to  peers or a teacher, who has gone through what you are going through.

[Bearded Dragon]

However the spaciousness itself -- that never leaves. It's in my body.

 

I wonder how your perspective overall would change if you saw it the other way around, that your body is in the spaciousness.

 

You say that nothing feels like it should be added or removed. It's that way anyway, no matter what or how much you do. The internals of your body are always working away doing stuff that is way more complicated than what we can imagine. It's really not like nothing is happening with your body. It's just that it feels that way at the moment. The ego is going down kicking and screaming but just in a more subtle way that you aren't recognising.

 

I think you're just a bit stuck. That's all. The emptiness is great if there truly is a flow to it. Without all that much mind I'm experiencing life way more now. You just have to really open to it then your capacity to act or not act is supercharged. It still is fair to say that I do less now, but that's because I see that a lot of the stuff I used to do had no heart in it. Many things feel like they aren't worth doing anymore.

 

Just go with it. Accept every part of how things are. All of it. It's not going to take much for things to turn around by the sound of it.

[Michael Sternbach]

As it happens, I have just written about states like the one you are currently experiencing from an Archetypal/Alchemical perspective here.

[johndoe2012]

One thing I sense is that your energy is very low compared to what it usually is.

 

This means it can be tougher to move through blockages, take longer time and an overall feeling of being down can be the experience.

 

You can opt for something that brings in energy to improve things.

[Karl]

Yes, I get this. I guess I focused too much on this specific situation in my last post, which kind of drew us into a scenario. What I'm trying to describe is the sense of inner spaciousness I feel, the calm in each moment, even in those little, simple things. But it's even in the presence of those big things. The spaciousness comes with me wherever I go, it's not merely grief.

 

In relation to that, the spaciousness seems to be overwhelming. There's not enough mind, individuation, or ego anymore. Most people have the opposite problem... they think and think, or constantly take action. Mind is very strong. For me the spaciousness is almost all consuming to the point that there is no will because the spaciousness is so calm and peaceful that it requires nothing to be added or removed. Does this make sense? The world of "stuff" is hard for me to deal with because the overwhelming spaciousness has perhaps softened my ego too much, or something? (Please don't take my words literally I'm being metaphorical.)

 

I'm in a more critical situation right now but the past 5 months I was in remission and super healthy. Still I was dealing with this issue. I suppose it could be some form of PTSD, but I doubt it. I feel possibilities and spaciousness but somehow it doesn't engender me to "become" anything. That's why I question where this undermining of life force comes from. Why is this sense of inner freedom not freeing up my energy?

 

The grief comes in because the spaciousness sometimes feel heartbreaking, like there's nothing to reach out and grasp for, it all slips away. *That* is something I'd like to change... to see it more joyfully and dive into the possibilities. Maybe if I recover and get my vitality back, it would be easier to see that. However the spaciousness itself -- that never leaves. It's in my body.

 

If you are thinking your ego has 'softened too much' then you are not saying you exist in this 'spaciousness' at all.

 

You are unhappy with the present situation and claim that it is your current situation that is making it that way and not your thinking of the present situation. There is no dichotomy. You are you. Either choose less mind and more sacrifice/surrender, or more mind and therefore the acceptance of error-failure-success. You may either choose to see your mind as the only tool you have for achieving happiness, or as the enemy of that purpose. Either way you choose, it is the same exact thing. You are seeking happiness by the shutting down of the mind, by using the mind to shut down the mind. That's where the conflict is. Reality intrudes. So, that which you try to accomplish, is equal to standing in a bucket whilst simultaneously trying to raise it with your hands.

 

 

 

 

[Jonesboy]

Dispassion is a state that is written about in Yoga. It was weird for me as well. Being the Witness is one thing but then to not feel the emotions when you normally would was very disconcerting. I remember having those I loved crying over an event and showing compassion but inside it just floated on by. I wasn't touched by the pain, sorry or states of happiness. It was all the same.

 

It was just a phase and it sounds like it will be for you as well. With everything going on in your life it seems like it may be a blessing.

 

All the best to you,

 

Tom

[3bob]

have you sought professional counseling...?  I'd say we are all guessing some so I'd take anything said with grains of salt...

Edited January 31, 2016 by 3bob

[Boy]

Am I in a spiritual trap?

Yes. And you make perfect sense and I could hug you. You have a long journey before you and you will need friends. One poster in this thread has given you the plain truth, and your family will provide emotional backing, but the realization before you is only for you. It takes guts you never thought you had.

[Nikolai1]

When the dark night of the soul starts to disperse the peace may well set in before the higher return to purpose and action.  You're not in a trap, but you are in a phase that will pass.  I know you can bear it because it's not agonising for you - patience is the key word here.  You are right to sense that this can't last.

[Bud Jetsun]

All that you have seen, heard, smelled, tasted, or touched will crumble to dust.

 

For this reason, rest you own minds well being in the same support galaxies of galaxies rest upon. In this making this choice, the strings of conditions to a particular earthly phenomena preference fall severed.

 

The expectation there should be more than Now is uncompassionate to yourself who deserves your Love more than anyone else.

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[Orion]

If you are thinking your ego has 'softened too much' then you are not saying you exist in this 'spaciousness' at all. You are unhappy with the present situation and claim that it is your current situation that is making it that way and not your thinking of the present situation. There is no dichotomy. You are you. Either choose less mind and more sacrifice/surrender, or more mind and therefore the acceptance of error-failure-success. You may either choose to see your mind as the only tool you have for achieving happiness, or as the enemy of that purpose. Either way you choose, it is the same exact thing. You are seeking happiness by the shutting down of the mind, by using the mind to shut down the mind. That's where the conflict is. Reality intrudes. So, that which you try to accomplish, is equal to standing in a bucket whilst simultaneously trying to raise it with your hands.

 

I haven't become dispassionate or averse to reality. It's rather the opposite, if anything.

 

What I'm trying to describe is a state where participation seems redundant and so it's easy to become passive. Not the same as laziness, apathy or abdication as I am usually a hard working person.

 

I don't think I can put this into words. What I said earlier was a metaphorical attempt to delineate some of this. Others in this thread more or less understood, so I'm not sure how much more I can expound upon it.

 

Thank you for trying though.

[HoldorFold]

The great masters of old pretty much had one thing in common: they gave to the world. When you don't have the desires of the ego, I think that's the one thing that will get you going.

[doc benway]

Not sure how to phrase this, so bear with me.

 

Considering all the highs and lows and the spiritual experiences, I've been made unusually prepared to let everything go. It may turn out that I underestimate this, but... the gratitude of being shown these things has humbled me to the point of willing acceptance. I can accept more than most people I've met, not a lot phases me. A lot of this has been brought on by suffering and agony, which perhaps nobody should have to keep taking past a certain point... but I digress.

 

My experiences so far have been very dissolving. On the one hand it has felt dangerous because it undermines all ambition and life force. It's like learning in advance how to die feeds too much into the death drive built into every human being. It may even implant, at a subconscious level, a desire to die, not out of suicide but out of dissolution, because the psyche is trying to come to terms with the truth of its own redundancy.

 

This is a deeply existential quandary.

 

On the other hand I'd personally rather feel freed of all the extraneous bullshit relatively young, rather than work my ass off my whole life for some rat race because of living in the shadow of the fear of death as a means to keep achieving. But the bigger burden seems to be that often others care for me more than I do for myself -- not that I hate myself or dislike myself, but I'm just overly accepting and risk taking.

 

It seems defeatist, but that may not be the right word to put on this. Not to make too fine a point, but it seems that if you have anything left to give, then fight, otherwise stop swimming against the current. Just be the inevitable movement of the Dao that goes on and on endlessly.

 

The dissolution is overwhelming at times. Everything I look at in the world, my own reflection, in the eyes of the people talking to me, in the wind that blows through the trees, in the rain, I see the Dao. All one thing, doing itself endlessly. Out of control, beyond tampering.

 

I don't really know what remains, whether it's an ego game or just pure being in the energy field of all that is, but as long as I am not unconscious there must be some heavy cognitive dissonance going on. What I know is that the feeling is in my body, it taps every centre. It's with me when I meditate, or go grocery shopping, talking to a friend, etc. The feeling never leaves. And no it's not merely being ungrounded.

 

There is a deep seed within me that urges me to not rest too long in this state, that somehow there is something beyond this, even though I can't see how that's possible right now. It's almost too yin. I could sit on a park bench for the rest of my life watching the world do its dance or I could go start a fortune 500 company, it would make no difference.

 

Am I in a spiritual trap?

 

Realization cannot undermine the life force. 

Realization is direct connection with and expression of the life force.

If you are in an existential quandary you are mired in a state created by thought, not realization.

True realization will unleash the creative force, the spontaneity of unconditional love, it has nothing to do with thought. 

There are no questions or doubts there whatsoever.