Working with higher level subtle beings and spirits

[Jonesboy]

This is a difficult subject indeed. It is true that the yidam is a visualised meditation object and so in that sense you can say it is a product of your mind. But then part of the sadhana is to link the deity before you i.e. the one visualised to the the 'existing' one in the buddha-realms (I use 'existing' in a special sense here). So it is not merely a product of ordinary visualisation or effort - if it was it would be useless. To ask if the yidam (Chenrezig or Manjushri for instance) is 'real' or not - is a trick question because in some sense they are more real than 'you' since the 'you' that you normally deal with is just ego.

 

In my experience working with a yidam takes you beyond what you would achieve working from your own effort of concentration and insight. And the the other point is that yidam has access to emptiness - they pop in and out with ease (this is a way of speaking) - so by identification with the yidam you also gain this power plus other associated siddhis.

 

Can Jesus or other non-Buddhist deities be yidams. Technically no. Why because the yidam stands in for the dharma which in essence teaches emptiness and 'liberation through seeing things as they really are'. Did Jesus teach either of these? Not as far as I am aware.

 

In a non technical sense a yidam could be said to be the equivalent of a tutelary deity - in which case any god-form could be a 'yidam' - but this is only a casual way of speaking. For instance if you were to follow and invoke Zeus or Aphrodite then you could gain the benefits and powers of those deities - but would they lead to liberation? Not according to Buddhism no they wouldn't. So they cannot be yidams in that sense.

 

My thoughts.

Thank you Apech,

 

Technically any deity can be used in the practice. Even Jesus or Lao Tzu according to Berzin here.

 

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/advanced/tantra/level1_getting_started/what_diff_deity_mmouse/transcript.html?query=yidams

 

I find the practice to be at times intense. Ecstatic energy through out my body at the beginning of the merge. Energy flowing through my body while merged. Periods of such intense silence that I could not really do anything for about 30 minutes. That was what it felt like when I merged with Jesus the first time.

 

When you read the two links on this thread from Berzin you can grasp that any ishta can be used. The problem is people get caught up in my team only mentality.

 

I strongly disagree with that. The practice is for everyone. If someone has deep love for Lao Tzu then use Lao Tzu. If you like Tara or Jesus then use the divine being you have a connection with.

 

Traditionalists will disagree as we have seen on this thread already.

 

I also have found that each divine being is unique in feel and connection, it is a very beautiful thing.

 

It is also something I have been blessed to be able to share with others. I have demonstrated here at the bums and at LU the ability to merge people to a divine being of their choice . Beyond that I enjoy even more helping people get to the point where they can do it themselves with just a thought as well.

 

Now we can debate all day in a thread and get nowhere. I know people will use what I am saying in a negative manner. I am just sharing my experience, a little of my journey in working with divine beings.

 

Truthfully, I would rather just show people.

 

All the best.

[Apech]

Thank you Apech,

 

Technically any deity can be used in the practice. Even Jesus or Lao Tzu according to Berzin here.

 

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/advanced/tantra/level1_getting_started/what_diff_deity_mmouse/transcript.html?query=yidams

 

...

 

When you read the two links on this thread from Berzin you can grasp that any ishta can be used. The problem is people get caught up in my team only mentality.

 

I strongly disagree with that. The practice is for everyone. If someone has deep love for Lao Tzu then use Lao Tzu. If you like Tara or Jesus then use the divine being you have a connection with.

 

Traditionalists will disagree as we have seen on this thread already.

 

....

 

Hi,

 

I quickly read that article a couple of times and can't find any reference to using jesus or LaoTzu as a yidam.  Perhaps I misunderstood your point.  I don't disagree that you can do some form of practice with other persons or deities but the point I was making is that the result will not be the same.  You do some kind of practice as you describe and get a result - which you also describe.  This is not Buddha-dharma which is where the term yidam comes from.  This has nothing to do with 'my team' or whatever expression you want to use - it has to do with the intent and activity involved.  Given the context of the term yidem there is no need to appropriate it for your own use. 

[Jonesboy]

Hi Apech,

 

 

From the link:

 

Question: Is it all right to visualize that we are in the form of a Buddha-figure that’s more familiar to us, like Jesus or Mary, rather than in the form of these traditional Indian Buddha-figures that are hard to relate to?

 

Alex: In general, this is not a good idea, because it is quite disrespectful to the other religions, like for instance, here, Christianity. Even if we keep this private to ourselves and don’t tell this to any Christians, it is still being disrespectful to Christianity. It’s almost as if we are converting Jesus and Mary into Buddhists. Now this doesn’t preclude having Jesus and Mary visualized in front of us and being inspired by their good qualities, and even imagining waves of inspiration in the form of colored lights coming from them and inspiring us to develop their qualities. But what would be inappropriate and disrespectful would be to visualize ourselves as Jesus or Mary.

 

Now he does call it disrespectful to do such a practice from a Christian or even a Buddhist point of view. He never says you can't

 

I just find all the great beings are telling us the same things in different ways.

 

We are talking about merging with divine beings, becoming one with them and as a result acquiring siddhis among other things.

 

This verse from Jesus sure sounds like he is saying the same thing.

 

From GOT:

 

108. Jesus said, "Whoever drinks from my mouth will become like me; I myself shall become that person, and the hidden things will be revealed to him."

 

Just my take on things.

 

All the best to you.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Jonesboy

[Apech]

Not exactly encouraging though is it?  

 

 

PS.  Just to add - you seem to be basically Christian and so why the Buddhism?  That's what he is saying ... what you are doing is disrespectful one way or another.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Apech

[Jonesboy]

He is a traditionalist, you wouldn't expect him to be now would you

[Apech]

He is a traditionalist, you wouldn't expect him to be now would you

 

 

Have you ever considered that it is you who don't understand?

[Jonesboy]

If I would just talk within the lineage would that make everything better? Everything I have said about how I work with divine beings is in line with the teachings of Guru Rinpoches teaching.

 

I would love for someone who does the practice and feels the connection to such a being work with me to see what the difference is if any.

 

If people are not willing then it is just a bunch of insults to say what I do or don't know or what I can or can't do.

 

All I am saying is the ocean is bigger and more wonderful than just one tradition or belief system.

 

Have a good one.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Jonesboy

[rex]

Everything I have said about how I work with divine beings is in line with the teachings of Guru Rinpoches teaching.

Please excuse me if I'm misinterpreting your position here Jonesboy, but you appear to be saying that anyone can choose any vajrayana deity/yidam and just visualise themselves as this deity and recite their mantra without regard to any formal introduction or teachings from a flesh and blood lineage holder of the vajrayana. If this is the case, then this is definitely not working in line with the teachings of Guru Rinpoche. From Dakini Teachings:

 

Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Without receiving empowerment from one's master, will one attain accomplishment or not?

The master replied: To exert yourself in study and so forth without attending a master and without having received the empowerments, you will have no result and your effort will be wasted.

Empowerment is the entrance to the Secret Mantra. To enter the Secret Mantra without the empowerments being conferred is pointless, since it will yield no result and your stream of being will be ruined.

 

Again from Dakini Teachings - regarding receiving empowerments and transmissions for vajrayana deities from masters who have not received empowerments (and by extension those outside the tradition):

 

Lady Tsogyal asked the Master: If a master himself has not been conferred empowerments and he gives them to others, will they receive the empowerments or not?

The master replied: Although you may be appointed by a charlatan to the rank of a minister thus entrusted with power, you will meet with misfortune. Likewise, although you may have an empowerment conferred upon you by a master who himself has not received it, your mind will be ruined.

 

Edit: tpyos

Edited February 7, 2016 by rex

[Tibetan_Ice]

...

So it is not merely a product of ordinary visualisation or effort - if it was it would be useless.

...

 

.

I agree with most all that you've said on this post except for this small bit about "ordinary visualization" .

Perhaps you mean that visualization would then be useless within the context and intent of the Buddhist practices?

 

According to Daskalos, visualization is one of the keys for spiritual development.

 

http://www.researchersoftruth.org/teachings/visualization

 

Visualization

 

By learning to observe carefully and to concentrate fully, the ability to visualize properly becomes easier. Some bemoan the fact that they cannot visualize, but in fact we all visualize subconsciously in the creation of elementals. This is the way we create our world. There is nothing more powerful than thought, and visualization is the process of harnessing thought in a constructive manner for the expansion of consciousness and aiding others in need. Imprint ether is used to shape etheric vitality into psycho­ noetical images and is therefore vital to our work in visualization. Using imprint ether we are able to memorize and store images.

 

Visualization is a language of the Divine, the "key" to the kingdoms (Rev.3:7). After learning to observe carefully and to concentrate fully, we gain the ability to visualize con­sciously. We shape etheric vitality to create elementals, from psychic-noetical images to entire scenes. Through visualization, in healing work, we learn to materialize and de­materialize. There is nothing more powerful than thought, and visualization is the process of harnessing thought in a constructive manner for the expansion of the self and to aid others in need.

 

Proper visualization is indispensable in our work as I have always insisted. It is one of the "keys" (cf. Matt 16:19) that so many speculate about. The exercises and meditations (in the Esoteric Practice book) all require the ability to visualize: to form psycho-noetical super-substance into the creation of objects and situations. For those unfamiliar with the work of visualization we will provide basic guidance leading into more advanced work. We must not be overly intimidated by the importance of visualization. All things will come in time.

 

Perhaps the most important skill for performing an exercise is the ability to form psycho-noetical images and scenes. This work is otherwise known as visualization. Psycho-noetical images are elementals constructed of Mind super-substance at varying rates of frequency. Once created, an image has a real, multi-dimensional existence that is far more durable than any gross material object.

 

We must not confuse this holy work with fantasy. In shaping substance (using kinetic, creative, imprint and sensate ethers) we seek to replicate the work of the Logos and the Holy Spirit by faithfully reproducing noetic forms. Visuali­zation is used as a vehicle to expand our consciousness, as it is the language between the mundane and the Divine. By constructing specific forms and settings we allow for inter­action with Divine energies. Visualization, additionally, is indispensable in healing work for invoking images of health and perfection where illness and disease have set in.

 

Archangels are constantly creating such images, in accordance with the Divine forms, when they shape universes and worlds, and when they form angels to watch over their work. Our ability to form these images is a most Divine gift and privilege that we need to fully develop with reverence.

 

Since visualization is such an important key, is it no wonder that it is found in guru yoga, deity yidam practice and most other spiritual teachings?

[Jonesboy]

Edited February 8, 2016 by Jonesboy

[Apech]

I agree with most all that you've said on this post except for this small bit about "ordinary visualization" .

Perhaps you mean that visualization would then be useless within the context and intent of the Buddhist practices?

 

According to Daskalos, visualization is one of the keys for spiritual development.

 

http://www.researchersoftruth.org/teachings/visualization

 

 

Since visualization is such an important key, is it no wonder that it is found in guru yoga, deity yidam practice and most other spiritual teachings?

 

 

You misunderstood me.  I meant that if what you were working with as a yidam was just a kind of empty image then it would not be of value.  I am not saying the ability to visualise is not important.

 

By the way why do keep quoting Daskalos when talking about Buddhist practice.

[rex]

[Jonesboy]

Hi rex,

 

I have said that I don't follow the tradition. I am not a Buddhist because I don't ONLY take refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.

 

I have said that working with deities is for everyone and not just for Buddhist.

 

I see absolutely nothing wrong with that statement.

 

The way I do the practice is described exactly like this:

“Lady Tsogyal asked the master: How should a person with the highest mental capacity practice?

The master replied: When a person of the highest mental capacity meditates on a deity, he does not visualize it step by step. Simply by uttering the essence mantra, a sentence, or simply by wanting to and thinking of the deity, he visualizes it vividly, instantaneously, and self-existing, like a bubble emerging from water. This is itself the invitation of the deity from dharmadhatu.”

 

“Not being apart from the deity during the four aspects of daily activities—walking, moving about, lying down, or sitting—that is the path of the person of the highest mental capacity. It is extremely difficult and is the domain of someone who possesses the residual karma of former training.”

 

Excerpt From: Padmasambhava Guru Rinpoche. “Dakini Teachings.”

I have stated that the experience is just like this and I have shared what that feels like:

 

 

“Lady Tsogyal asked the master: How should we approach the sugata yidam deity?

The master replied: Realize that you and the yidam deity are not two and that there is no yidam deity apart from yourself. You approach the yidam deity when you realize that your nature is the state of nonarising dharmakaya.”

 

Excerpt From: Padmasambhava Guru Rinpoche. “Dakini Teachings.” Rangjung Yeshe Publications.

That is why I say my practice is in line with the teachings of Guru Rinpoche.

 

What Guru Rinpoche has stated has been practiced by many, many people. It is an accepted practice. The key is people do it.

 

All I am saying is I do it and I can help people with it. How can that be confirmed? By people willing to see if what I am saying is true. Also, by the fact that others who from LU say and can do the same thing. I am not the only one that can do this or merge others to divine beings.

 

I am just the loudest saying this is some amazing stuff!

 

Now this is an advanced practice and one I don't just say hey let's do some deity yoga right from the start. As a matter of fact this will be the last time I bring it up in public.

 

How have I am I able to do this? By the grace of the Guru.

 

All the best to you Rex.

 

Tom

 

.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Jonesboy

[C T]

Its very simple - yidam practice is part of the framework which consists also of lama and khandro (lama, yidam & khandro). An authentic Vajrayana practitioner who undertakes this practice will do it within this complete framework.

 

Its not as if its a 'choose what you like' practice.

 

Any Vajrayana practitioner will know the core purpose and how essential it is to perform the practice in its completeness because this is reflective of what all authentic Vajrayana teachers encourage the students to observe - that is, a practice must be good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end.

 

One cannot simply insist on yidam practice alone. It nullifies the practice completely. It can lead to very dire consequences actually. Just like in the trinity, one cannot say they only want to believe in Jesus and work with that principle alone, and that Father and Holy Spirit is secondary and can be set aside. Its plain foolish to think like that. 

[Apech]

This is not the Buddhist Sub so perhaps we should lift this topic back to the OP about working with subtle level beings.  This occurs in all kinds of systems.  But in most the deity or whatever is regarded as a real, separate entity.  While in Buddhism the sugata yidam is ultimately your own buddha nature which is not different to the dharmakaya.  This is specifically what Guru Rinpoche was talking about - why? because it is the practice that leads to liberation.  Just because it is possible to compare this to theurgy or conversation with angels and so on - does not mean that all practices which superficially share some characteristics are the same.  

[Jonesboy]

Hi Apech,

 

Just to clarify.

 

I don't talk to any being. When you are one there is no separation. There is no subject or object. That is why I said this is more than visualization.

 

When one starts it can help to visualize the divine merging into to you. The visualization is just to help with the local mind. Eventually it is just a thought.

 

The merge and the flow of energy from the merge is what helps clear away the obstructions that leads to siddhis, liberation, etc... A lot is happening with this practice. Many can feel the Divine love, peace and calm when merged with a being.

 

Everyone is different in how they will experience it.

 

Ok, I have said enough.

 

Sorry to hoard up your thread with my posts Apech.

 

All the best,

 

Tom

[Brian]

<snip>

...the sugata yidam is ultimately your own buddha nature which is not different to the dharmakaya...

<snip>  

When y'all helped me to understand this point earlier in this thread, I was like, "OIC."

 

(Thanks, BTW...)

[Jetsun]

I don't talk to any being. When you are one there is no separation. There is no subject or object. That is why I said this is more than visualization.

 

 

So there is no separation between you and "it", but there is there still separation between your merge and everything and everyone else? You merge and become one with the deity, but you don't merge and become one with everything and the entire cosmos is that right?

[rex]

Hi rex,

 

I have said that I don't follow the tradition. I am not a Buddhist because I don't ONLY take refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.

 

I have said that working with deities is for everyone and not just for Buddhist.

 

I see absolutely nothing wrong with that statement.

...

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your patient clarification and sharing your experience. Even if it does not entirely accord with the tradition at least there has been an informed discussion and people can decide for themselves.

All the best to you Tom.

 

This is not the Buddhist Sub so perhaps we should lift this topic back to the OP ...

Agreed, though this Buddhist sidetrack has illustated one point in working with higher level subtle beings and spirits: cultural differences in the protocols for approach.

[Jetsun]

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your patient clarification and sharing your experience. Even if it does not entirely accord with the tradition at least there has been an informed discussion and people can decide for themselves.

All the best to you Tom.

 Agreed, though this Buddhist sidetrack has illustated one point in working with higher level subtle beings and spirits: cultural differences in the protocols for approach.

 

Yes I agree, I think it has been informative as to how different traditions go about this, or at least clarifies how Yidam practice goes about it. 

[Apech]

Apart from Buddhist yidam practice with which I am familiar, I used to be interested in Ancient Egyptian magic.  To the AEs the whole of the universe is composed of the 'souls' of divine beings.  So the earth and sky and wind and sun are all souls = baw of the gods.  So everything that exists ca be said to be composed of sekhem or divine power.  This is like an infinite field of spirit in which entities of all kinds exist.  These entities are called Neter (or Netjer) a word which means 'power wrapped in form' - or more simply 'that which is wrapped' where wrapped = cloaked.

 

This is a very general term applied to all types of spirit beings from creator gods like Amen-Ra to minor underworld demons.  They were all called Neterw.

 

Conversation with, and interaction with these Neterw is essential to the Egyptian system.  And again they have a broad range of types and applications.  There are those which are causal powers like the creation Ennead, there are those which are subtle beings which include ancestor spirits for instance and there are those which relate to physical existence (for instance the Sons of Horus and the main organs of the body).

 

When I worked with these deities I tended to focus on the wisdom gods and the guides - i.e. Thoth and Anubis.  Thoth acts as a kind of oracle or more simply directs your vision and thought in particular ways, Anubis is a psychopomp - a guide through the inner planes of existence.

 

There are specific exercises which the Egyptians practiced, one of which was to identify each part of the body, legs, spine, arms and so on with a set of deities in order to purify the body and let it dissolve into the void (Nun), the same was done with the head - which became what is called the 'Head of Mystery' which is a structure formed from planes of awareness.

 

The ultimate purpose of this work is to transform yourself into an 'akh' - which is a spiritualised immortal self which is capable of all action and has perfect freedom.  This really is taking your place among the gods.

 

There is also astral magic relating to the fields of the sky = Nut - which is about the influence of the cosmos on our world.

 

Its a big subject but depends completely on the interaction with entities at all levels.

[Kar3n]

My approach to working with subtle higher beings is based on non-duality and oneness. I do not feel as though I am separate from anyone or anything.

 

When merging oneness is experienced to the level of depth that one is able, not necessarily to that of the divine being. Deity practice, for me, is a super highway useful in burning through obstructions allowing for expansion, however, one is still limited to what they are capable of handling at the given moment.

 

I find that the more I practice, the more open I become, the experiences are more powerful and my perceptions and understandings evolve to be clearer and deeper.

 

Much love.

[Jonesboy]

So there is no separation between you and "it", but there is there still separation between your merge and everything and everyone else? You merge and become one with the deity, but you don't merge and become one with everything and the entire cosmos is that right?

Hi Jetsun,

 

Karen said it perfectly.

My approach to working with subtle higher beings is based on non-duality and oneness. I do not feel as though I am separate from anyone or anything.

 

When merging oneness is experienced to the level of depth that one is able, not necessarily to that of the divine being. Deity practice, for me, is a super highway useful in burning through obstructions allowing for expansion, however, one is still limited to what they are capable of handling at the given moment.

 

I find that the more I practice, the more open I become, the experiences are more powerful and my perceptions and understandings evolve to be clearer and deeper.

 

Much love.

[doc benway]

I agree with Kar3n's approach which is essentially the Bon/Buddhist view

 

I do think it's important to acknowledge, however, that there are traditions which reify these 'subtle beings and spirits' (as do the "lesser" vehicles in Bon) and yet manage to work with them in very skillful and effective ways. We especially see this in indigenous groups where the majority of folks may not be sophisticated enough to see the non-dual aspect but still manage to achieve their objectives working with these things in a dualistic manner.

[Jetsun]

My approach to working with subtle higher beings is based on non-duality and oneness. I do not feel as though I am separate from anyone or anything.

 

When merging oneness is experienced to the level of depth that one is able, not necessarily to that of the divine being. Deity practice, for me, is a super highway useful in burning through obstructions allowing for expansion, however, one is still limited to what they are capable of handling at the given moment.

 

I find that the more I practice, the more open I become, the experiences are more powerful and my perceptions and understandings evolve to be clearer and deeper.

 

Much love.

 

Without lineage preparation and empowerment how do you know the divine being is what you think it is? how do you know they don't want something in return for their help? 

 

For example, say there are two high level beings in Jesus and Satan, on a certain level we are one with both and could connect with both energetically, but how would you be able to tell the difference between them? because Satan isn't going to appear to you to be all hot and fiery and appear really dangerous, he is going to try to appear exactly how we may image Jesus is going to appear and may do things which feel nice and feel good, Jesus on the other hand may do something to us which makes us feel like shit but ultimately is in our best interest