Working with higher level subtle beings and spirits

[dwai]

Even if you have no direct experience the existence of subtle beings the existence of channelled books is pretty mainstream now, things like 'Conversations with God' appear in all the main book stores so obviously something is going on. Many healers and spiritual masters claim to be working with such beings. Most seem to want to do good, but are they all really trustworthy and have pure intentions?

 

In terms of the map I most work with there are higher dimensions above and around our human realm, so there are 7th 8th 9th etc dimensions, full of different orders of subtle beings, but the thing is that just because something is in a subtle higher realm and has wisdom and power it doesn't necessarily mean they are free of ego. A higher level being isn't the same thing as a divine being or a being in complete altruistic service, you could easily confuse them up, they may try to give that impression that is what they are but they aren't necessarily the same thing. 

 

One story I heard is that the ancient Egyptians worked with some very powerful high level beings, which taught them many things and initially gave many benefits, but the deal on the subtle level was that in exchange the beings would gradually drain away the liver energy of the Egyptians, eventually leading to catastrophe. This story may be bullshit but who knows.

 

In Tibetan medicine they have over 18 ranks and classifications of spirits who can interact with humanity for good or ill. The highest levels of which they call "Teacher spirits" , "Hermit spirits" "God physician spirits" and "Tantrician spirits", now something like a teacher spirit or physician spirit sounds like a good thing and may try to convince you that they are helping you, but in reality Tibetan medicine says that those spirits are the most harmful ones of all created with black magic to manipulate you off course and do harm. 

 

How do you know what level or order of being you are working with?

 

So basically in this realm of subtle beings you have to be careful and the advice of many traditions such as Zen and Christianity which suggest going straight to the absolute and ignore all these other realms makes sense in this context. 

imho, it is important to "NOT SEEK" such an interaction. Just focus on cultivation/meditation and practice. With time, such beings may present themselves. Then it depends on what you feel. This is not at the intellectual level, but at a deeper, spiritual level. 

 

Typically, again imho, most people who seek out such interactions tend to delude themselves into thinking they are interacting with such beings. If you are not at a level where you can draw the attention of these higher beings/teachers you will not be contacted by them. 

 

My experiences have shown that these teachers will guide you if you want to be guided. They give you an option. Its up to you to choose or not. In my case, once I decided not to avail of their offer, they went away and did not come back to me.

 

About the topic of choosing to opt for more "direct" practice, do you think these practices are made available without a human actor? There was someone who did it first...for those who follow after to even go about claiming "nothing this...emptiness that..."

 

 

Key imho, to spiritual maturity and growth are - humility, sincerity and hard work. Nothing beats that...there are no short cuts and when you are ready, teachers will present themselves and offer you solutions. Don't fall for the "evil, sin, heaven, hell" type nonsense...there is no heaven, no hell. We make our very existence in our minds...and our minds can be heavens or hells.

[Apech]

Hard work!!!!!  get out of here

[doc benway]

Without lineage preparation and empowerment how do you know the divine being is what you think it is? how do you know they don't want something in return for their help? 

 

For example, say there are two high level beings in Jesus and Satan, on a certain level we are one with both and could connect with both energetically, but how would you be able to tell the difference between them? because Satan isn't going to appear to you to be all hot and fiery and appear really dangerous, he is going to try to appear exactly how we may image Jesus is going to appear and may do things which feel nice and feel good, Jesus on the other hand may do something to us which makes us feel like shit but ultimately is in our best interest

 

I don't mean to answer for Kar3n, she may have a different response but I'd like to offer a response to this.

 

First, if you haven't received empowerment or preparation, you probably would be better off not using the iconography of that particular lineage or tradition. While you can certainly use any image you want, the benefits of understanding the specific details of the visualization and practice will simply not be there. You may as well visualize the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

 

When you approach these "beings" as a part of yourself, there is nothing else they can be other than an aspect of yourself.

To look at them as wanting something in return is not to see them from a non-dual perspective.

When doing something for oneself, who is there to want something in return?

 

In your example, Jesus and Satan are projections or constructs which represent different aspects of oneself. There is no need to distinguish them. You look beyond the representation, beyond the image or archetype, and actually look directly at yourself. Working with these "beings" is a way of working with and on oneself. They are a tool or a method, not something other than ourselves. Reifying them through attribution (what do they want, what if they're angry, what if they're tricking me?), is a distraction from the real work. 

 

Sure, we can trick ourselves and fool ourselves and make a mess of things internally but when working with these "beings" from a non-dual perspective it is important not to allow them to become just another layer of confusion and complexity. Ideally, they become a vehicle to transcend that and see more clearly. 

 

Not sure if that's helpful but I thought I'd offer that perspective.

Edited February 8, 2016 by steve

[liminal_luke]

For now, I´m working on having harmonious relationships with family and friends. Once I´ve got that down I´ll tackle higher level spirit beings.

[Brian]

FWIW, the Invisible Pink Unicorn is kinder and gentler than the Noodly Appendaged One.

[Apech]

For now, I´m working on having harmonious relationships with family and friends. Once I´ve got that down I´ll tackle higher level spirit beings.

 

 

Hopefully communing with angels will be nicer than Christmas with family.

[doc benway]

FWIW, the Invisible Pink Unicorn is kinder and gentler than the Noodly Appendaged One.

 

But the Pastafarians play better music in temple...

[Brian]

But the Pastafarians play better music in temple...

Yes, and eat better when they get the munchies.

[thelerner]

For now, I´m working on having harmonious relationships with family and friends. Once I´ve got that down I´ll tackle higher level spirit beings.

Ahh, getting the hard work over first..

[Creation]

Even if you have no direct experience the existence of subtle beings the existence of channelled books is pretty mainstream now, things like 'Conversations with God' appear in all the main book stores so obviously something is going on. Many healers and spiritual masters claim to be working with such beings. Most seem to want to do good, but are they all really trustworthy and have pure intentions?

...

In Tibetan medicine they have over 18 ranks and classifications of spirits who can interact with humanity for good or ill. The highest levels of which they call "Teacher spirits" , "Hermit spirits" "God physician spirits" and "Tantrician spirits", now something like a teacher spirit or physician spirit sounds like a good thing and may try to convince you that they are helping you, but in reality Tibetan medicine says that those spirits are the most harmful ones of all created with black magic to manipulate you off course and do harm. 

 

How do you know what level or order of being you are working with?

For anyone with sensitivity to spiritual realms, this is an absolutely crucial question to ask. 

 

A lot of this thread has been taken up by discussing yidams in Buddhist Higher Tantra.  Most discussions of deity yoga and the view of emptiness in relation to contact with spiritual beings that I have seen are misguided in my opinion.  First of all, if you are sick, does conceptually accepting that everything is an illusion negate the need for medicine?  If someone comes up to you and asks you something, do you say to yourself "This person is an illusion" and not acknowledge them?  Of course, one can choose to do this, but I think we can agree that it is not the most skillful way of living.   Now, these are matters of the physical realm in which we all experience.  But then you see people applying this absolutist way of thinking to interactions on other planes, and I think this is because the spiritual planes are not something that most people commonly experience.  I would like to see the spiritual realms normalized, so that one understands there is skillful and unskillful on all planes and the view that all planes are illusory doesn't change this. 

 

All traditional societies have a class of person who train to work with the spiritual world, for instance those who doing things like exorcisms, sending of the dead, consecrating temples, etc.  For them, what is "spiritual" for most is their everyday existence.  What I think is often not appreciated by Westerners following Vajrayana is that much of Tantra is about doing this kind of thing. 

 

In Theravada and Sutra Mahayana, it is considered that one's mastery of samadhi practice gives one this kind of power, and applying this samadhi power to the cultivation of insight brings realization.  Also in Sutra Mahayana, one connects to various Buddhas and Bodhisattvas such as Amitabha, and this also can give one power in the spiritual world.  But even if one's practice is reciting Amitabha's name to be reborn in the pure land, when realization dawns one sees that Amitabha's nature is the same as one's own Buddha nature, and one's own mind is the pure land.  Buddhist scholars say that a slightly later phase of Mahayana developed the practice of visualizing one's self as a Buddha in order to have power in the spiritual world in order to benefit beings, but it was not initially considered a separate vehicle to enlightenment. 

 

Now, when deity yoga fully matured into the Higher Tantras that were propagated in Tibet, it was still considered that Deity yoga is something that gives you power in the spiritual world in addition to being a path to enlightenment.  Padmasambhava was able to subjugate the demons obstructing the construction of Samye due to his mastery of wrathful yidams, for instance.  It was understood that Deity yoga without insight was a very real possibility, and there are are stories of Tantric practitioners who mastered the generation stage but lacked Bodhicitta and/or the completion stage becoming powerful evil spirits after death.  Moreover, there are a whole lot of Tantric rituals to do various things which are spiritual from an ordinary perspective, but mundane from the perspective of emptiness.  And different deities are used for different kinds of activities.  So to say that a yidam is just a representation of one's own Buddha Nature is not the whole story.  Viewing the yidam as a representation of one's own Buddha Nature is skillful means for realizing enlightenment via deity yoga, analogous to a pure land practitioner meditating on his nature being non-different from Amitabha's nature.

 

Stepping away from discussion of Vajrayana and coming back to the OP, I think that it is important to cultivate trustworthiness in one's self in order to attract trustworthy guides physical and non-physical, purity in one's self in order to attract pure guides physical and non-physical, etc.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Creation

[Kar3n]

Without lineage preparation and empowerment how do you know the divine being is what you think it is? how do you know they don't want something in return for their help? 

 

For example, say there are two high level beings in Jesus and Satan, on a certain level we are one with both and could connect with both energetically, but how would you be able to tell the difference between them? because Satan isn't going to appear to you to be all hot and fiery and appear really dangerous, he is going to try to appear exactly how we may image Jesus is going to appear and may do things which feel nice and feel good, Jesus on the other hand may do something to us which makes us feel like shit but ultimately is in our best interest

 

Are you speaking from a Buddhist perspective or just in general? I do not believe that deity practices are limited to just the one tradition, not that I am claiming any tradition.

 

Most of my experiences came from doing simple mindfulness meditation and were untainted by the things people read on-line or in books. I knew nothing about Buddhism, Hinduism, Dao, or anything other than the traditional Christian stuff that comes from being a baptist preacher's daughter. Only after I had experienced emptiness and oneness did I go searching for answers to what I was feeling and experiencing on-line and in books. Some of the things I read really resonated with me and I had some real ah-ha moments, some of it I found to be fluff.

 

I really see no need for empowerments or lineage to give me permission, validation or the "go ahead" to work with something that is not separate from myself. This practice has not come without work, only after much clearing of obstructions and many openings was I even able to perceive that nothing is separate from myself. Upon that realization, coupled with more depth and clarity gained by actually sitting in meditation I started merging and working with higher beings.

 

There is nothing a being can take from me, because they are not anything that I am not or have the ability to be. Sure they may be deeper, meaner, more loving, whatever, but they are no separate from me. They are there to help, be it with an experience that may not feel so great or one that has me flying high for days on end. Every experience is a great lesson and another stepping stone along the path that leads to more ah-ha moments.

 

Much love.

[Brian]

For anyone with sensitivity to spiritual realms, this is an absolutely crucial question to ask.

 

A lot of this thread has been taken up by discussing yidams in Buddhist Higher Tantra. Most discussions of deity yoga and the view of emptiness in relation to contact with spiritual beings that I have seen are misguided in my opinion. First of all, if you are sick, does conceptually accepting that everything is an illusion negate the need for medicine? If someone comes up to you and asks you something, do you say to yourself "This person is an illusion" and not acknowledge them? Of course, one can choose to do this, but I think we can agree that it is not the most skillful way of living. Now, these are matters of the physical realm in which we all experience. But then you see people applying this absolutist way of thinking to interactions on other planes, and I think this is because the spiritual planes are not something that most people commonly experience. I would like to see the spiritual realms normalized, so that one understands there is skillful and unskillful on all planes and the view that all planes are illusory doesn't change this.

 

All traditional societies have a class of person who train to work with the spiritual world, for instance those who doing things like exorcisms, sending of the dead, consecrating temples, etc. For them, what is "spiritual" for most is their everyday existence. What I think is often not appreciated by Westerners following Vajrayana is that much of Tantra is about doing this kind of thing.

 

In Theravada and Sutra Mahayana, it is considered that one's mastery of samadhi practice gives one this kind of power, and applying this samadhi power to the cultivation of insight brings realization. Also in Sutra Mahayana, one connects to various Buddhas and Bodhisattvas such as Amitabha, and this also can give one power in the spiritual world. But even if one's practice is reciting Amitabha's name to be reborn in the pure land, when realization dawns one sees that Amitabha's nature is the same as one's own Buddha nature, and one's own mind is the pure land. Buddhist scholars say that a slightly later phase of Mahayana developed the practice of visualizing one's self as a Buddha in order to have power in the spiritual world in order to benefit beings, but it was not initially considered a separate vehicle to enlightenment.

 

Now, when deity yoga fully matured into the Higher Tantras that were propagated in Tibet, it was still considered that Deity yoga is something that gives you power in the spiritual world in addition to being a path to enlightenment. Padmasambhava was able to subjugate the demons obstructing the construction of Samye due to his mastery of wrathful yidams, for instance. It was understood that Deity yoga without insight was a very real possibility, and there are are stories of Tantric practitioners who mastered the generation stage but lacked Bodhicitta and/or the completion stage becoming powerful evil spirits after death. Moreover, there are a whole lot of Tantric rituals to do various things which are spiritual from an ordinary perspective, but mundane from the perspective of emptiness. And different deities are used for different kinds of activities. So to say that a yidam is just a representation of one's own Buddha Nature is not the whole story. Viewing the yidam as a representation of one's own Buddha Nature is skillful means for realizing enlightenment via deity yoga, analogous to a pure land practitioner meditating on his nature being non-different from Amitabha's nature.

 

Stepping away from discussion of Vajrayana and coming back to the OP, I think that it is important to cultivate trustworthiness in one's self in order to attract trustworthy guides physical and non-physical, purity in one's self in order to attract pure guides physical and non-physical, etc.

Thank you.

[rex]

Western esotericism has the Assumption of the Godform:

http://hermetic.com/stavish/rituals/godform.html

[Jetsun]

I really see no need for empowerments or lineage to give me permission, validation or the "go ahead" to work with something that is not separate from myself. This practice has not come without work, only after much clearing of obstructions and many openings was I even able to perceive that nothing is separate from myself. Upon that realization, coupled with more depth and clarity gained by actually sitting in meditation I started merging and working with higher beings.

 

There is nothing a being can take from me, because they are not anything that I am not or have the ability to be. Sure they may be deeper, meaner, more loving, whatever, but they are no separate from me. They are there to help, be it with an experience that may not feel so great or one that has me flying high for days on end. Every experience is a great lesson and another stepping stone along the path that leads to more ah-ha moments.

 

Much love.

 

You don't need permission to do anything, but I think it is a bit naive to think that just because you aren't separate from anything that it is always beneficial to merge with beings, you say that nothing can be taken from you but what about your health or mental wellbeing or being drawn into others issues which aren't yours to deal with, the whole issue of merging essentially means that the lines between what is your issue and anothers get confused.

 

The assumption is that because you discover these beings from refined perception that they don't have ego, don't have issues to deal with and are purely here to help, but I believe that is a misguided assumption. For example the Dalai Lama has come out and named some Buddhist deities could do harm if you work with them, could make you angry violent, these are considered refined high beings by many but are still harmful to work with.

 

Non-duality isn't a blanket pass that everything you do is fine, you aren't separate from poison but if you drink it it will do you harm. 

[Apech]

You don't need permission to do anything, but I think it is a bit naive to think that just because you aren't separate from anything that it is always beneficial to merge with beings, you say that nothing can be taken from you but what about your health or mental wellbeing or being drawn into others issues which aren't yours to deal with, the whole issue of merging essentially means that the lines between what is your issue and anothers get confused.

 

The assumption is that because you discover these beings from refined perception that they don't have ego, don't have issues to deal with and are purely here to help, but I believe that is a misguided assumption. For example the Dalai Lama has come out and named some Buddhist deities could do harm if you work with them, could make you angry violent, these are considered refined high beings by many but are still harmful to work with.

 

Non-duality isn't a blanket pass that everything you do is fine, you aren't separate from poison but if you drink it it will do you harm. 

 

THIS!!!!

 

To which I would add non-duality and oneness/unity are not the same concepts.  So if you go wandering about the spirit world merging with that mistake in your head it will end in disaster.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Apech

[Kar3n]

You don't need permission to do anything, but I think it is a bit naive to think that just because you aren't separate from anything that it is always beneficial to merge with beings, you say that nothing can be taken from you but what about your health or mental wellbeing or being drawn into others issues which aren't yours to deal with, the whole issue of merging essentially means that the lines between what is your issue and anothers get confused.

 

The assumption is that because you discover these beings from refined perception that they don't have ego, don't have issues to deal with and are purely here to help, but I believe that is a misguided assumption. For example the Dalai Lama has come out and named some Buddhist deities could do harm if you work with them, could make you angry violent, these are considered refined high beings by many but are still harmful to work with.

 

Non-duality isn't a blanket pass that everything you do is fine, you aren't separate from poison but if you drink it it will do you harm. 

 

Hi Jetsun,

 

I am not, in any way, stating that non-duality is a blanket pass for anything. I realize that how I practice might not be for everyone and may be met with opposition, but by the same token I am not seeking approval. See, the thing is, I am sharing what works for me in accordance with your OP, and has changed my life, exponentially, and in subtle ways the people whom I interact with on a daily basis. 

 

I am very comfortable in my practice and have my eyes wide open to the many dangers that can come with any practice. I am not a willy-nilly practitioner. I make no assumptions, in anything I do.

 

There is a great mount of clearing of our own personal issues that needs to be done before being able to take on what one may receive, be it emotionally, physically, visually, positive or negative from a deity. There is also discernment that comes with deeper levels of clarity and purification, and without it, I would lend caution to the casual practitioner.

 

Much love.

 

Karen

[Tibetan_Ice]

...

 

By the way why do keep quoting Daskalos when talking about Buddhist practice.

In this particular case I quoted Daskalos because of his high emphasis on the practice of visualization.

What I have found is that Buddhism tells you to do certain practices, like guru yoga (which is highly visualized), yidam deity practices, which are again visualized.... As a matter of fact, even visualizing the blue hum, the drops etc are visualization practices. On the other hand, Daskalos tells you the reasons behind visualization practices and even about their key usefulness in the next planes after death. Visualization is the key to healing, to manifestation, to many things. It all ties into observation, concentration and visualization. So, for me, it really helped me understand the theory behind the practices.

[Kar3n]

In this particular case I quoted Daskalos because of his high emphasis on the practice of visualization.

What I have found is that Buddhism tells you to do certain practices, like guru yoga (which is highly visualized), yidam deity practices, which are again visualized.... As a matter of fact, even visualizing the blue hum, the drops etc are visualization practices. On the other hand, Daskalos tells you the reasons behind visualization practices and even about their key usefulness in the next planes after death. Visualization is the key to healing, to manifestation, to many things. It all ties into observation, concentration and visualization. So, for me, it really helped me understand the theory behind the practices.

 

Tell me about knowing, please.

[silent thunder]

On this topic, I have always operated on the premise that:

 

Just because they don't have a body, doesn't mean they are helpful, smart, or nice.  

[Tibetan_Ice]

Tell me about knowing, please.

For more info about Daskalos, his books and links, please see http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/40377-daskalos/#entry671454

[C T]

On this topic, I have always operated on the premise that:

 

Just because they don't have a body, doesn't mean they are helpful, smart, or nice.  

I have seen how some of these guys (spirits/entities) work and can recognise their m.o. They are often beguiling, and would often start off as benevolent, along the way, and in varying degrees, their malevolency will surface in accordance to the gradual dissipation of one's spiritual merit and energy. 

 

Such 'infestations' are quite common in SE Asia where i grew up and remained for 30 years. Countries like Indonesia, Thailand and Malaysia are especially rife with these kinds of monkeyish critters. 

[manitou]

This is way out of my league, but I have to share something that just happened to me a couple nights ago.  A Bum who was working with me to help dissipate K-energy in my crown chakra suggested that I visualize a Buddhist deity.  I am not a Buddhist, but have recently read several Sutras and recognized aspects of myself in Flower Glow, so I decided to use this entity as my visualization.  In visualizing Flower Glow, I saw him as a bare chested Asian man with a man-bun, and drawstring pants.  The next night, another entity was with him.  This time it was a slender Asian woman in black Chinese pajama-type outfit.  She told me (intuitively) that her name was Maven.  At first, I thought she had transmitted 'Raven', but she transmitted back, 'No, Maven.'

 

To my knowledge, I have never heard the word maven.  If I did, it is far beyond my memory.  I didn't know there was such a word as maven.  But just out of curiosity, I googled 'define maven' the next morning, just in case there was a word like that.

 

Imagine my surprise to discover that a maven is an expert; and in fact an alternative definition is 'guru' or 'master'.  I am dumbfounded.

Edited February 10, 2016 by manitou

[seekingbuddha]

This is way out of my league, but I have to share something that just happened to me a couple nights ago.  A Bum who was working with me to help dissipate K-energy in my crown chakra suggested that I visualize a Buddhist deity.  I am not a Buddhist, but have recently read several Sutras and recognized aspects of myself in Flower Glow, so I decided to use this entity as my visualization.  In visualizing Flower Glow, I saw him as a bare chested Asian man with a man-bun, and drawstring pants.  The next night, another entity was with him.  This time it was a slender Asian woman in black Chinese pajama-type outfit.  She told me (intuitively) that her name was Maven.  At first, I thought she had transmitted 'Raven', but she transmitted back, 'No, Maven.'

 

To my knowledge, I have never heard the word maven.  If I did, it is far beyond my memory.  I didn't know there was such a word as maven.  But just out of curiosity, I googled 'define maven' the next morning, just in case there was a word like that.

 

Imagine my surprise to discover that a maven is an expert; and in fact an alternative definition is 'guru' or 'master'.  I am dumbfounded.

 

Since  a man and woman appeared to you (in a dream, i am guessing)........  could it be to indicate  that  "you (maven?)  are more experienced"  than the other person who was working with you (a man i am guessing)  ??   Perhaps subconsciously  you held  a feeling  that your knowledge in spirituality and practices  is  better than the one who was assisting you ?  What time of day did you do the visualization ? I am assuming it was during a meditation (or some such) ?

[manitou]

It was during a visualization, a meditation.  I've never done this type of meditation before, I always meditate with no-thought, I've been doing it that way for over 30 years.  I think that the visualizations will bring my heart to a place of deeper empathy than just the no-thought, as when I did it last night, I found myself holding Maven to my chest, and it brought a tear to my eye - she was so dear, so delicate.  And I love to hold Flower Glow's face gently in my hands.

 

Actually, my knowledges of practices other than no-thought meditation is sorely lacking.  To this point, I've walked more of a shamanic path.  I seem to be edging sideways into an appreciation of things Buddhist.  I've been listening every morning (and sometimes just doing a plain sitting meditation at night) to a Bon / Chod CD that a Bum ran off for me, and the more I hear it, the more I take the voice and chant of the man chanting into my heart.  It's as though I don't understand it, and yet I understand it at the same time.  I just can't explain it to myself or anyone else.

 

Something is going on.

[liminal_luke]

Manitou,

 

I find your non-dogmatic and refreshingly humble openness to your own unfolding experience a little touching.

Edited February 10, 2016 by liminal_luke