Qi breathing will not slow the aging process

[d4rr3n]

"All those who want to live a long life, but do not obtain the Divine Elixirs (shendan) and the Golden Liquor (jinye), merely bring suffering upon themselves.

 

Practising breathing and daoyin, exhaling the old and inhaling the new breath, and ingesting medicines of herbs and plants can extend the length of one's life, but does not allow one to escape death."

Huangdi jiuding shendan jingjue

 

Above we are told that breathing exercises, qigong, daoyin etc and the ingestion of herbs eg ginseng may extend life but does not allow one to escape death.

 

I would say the English translation is probably not exact because nobody can escape death totally as even the gods eventually grow old and die.

 

Eating herbs and doing breathing exercises may extend your life but will not stop the ageing process. You will live longer but as an aged person like the old qi gong and taichi masters you see, long lived but old.

 

If you want to slow down the actual ageing process no amount of qi breathing exercises will help, you must become an alchemist if you want to look young in old age.

[Spotless]

Youth - in the better sense - is an unlocked consciousness.

 

One has died long before their body if consciousness is locked in positions - most are quite dead by 55.

 

Their is no such thing as time and space - if your awareness has attained Awakening - you cannot grow old because you know nothing.

 

One can misunderstand Qi Breathing just as simply as they can "Becoming an Alchemist".

Neither should become "positions".

 

"Becoming an Alchemist" is a bit like pissing on the sidewalk.

 

Qi Breathing is not a thing and neither is "becoming an alchemist".

 

Denigration of one thing does not raise another - it is the essence of deadness - position.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Spotless

[Daoisme]

I think what you mentioned about breathing and herbs will have the effect of slowing the aging process as does many things.  It's might not stop aging but it will have some effect.

 

The passage about the Shendan and jinye (mercury and gold water) if understood literally then toxic, if not literally then very elusive. 

 

Also becoming an alchemist can mean relating to herbs too. In which case I would agree

Edited February 8, 2016 by Daoisme

[opendao]

"All those who want to live a long life, but do not obtain the Divine Elixirs (shendan) and the Golden Liquor (jinye), merely bring suffering upon themselves.

 

Practising breathing and daoyin, exhaling the old and inhaling the new breath, and ingesting medicines of herbs and plants can extend the length of one's life, but does not allow one to escape death."

Huangdi jiuding shendan jingjue

 

Above we are told that breathing exercises, qigong, daoyin etc and the ingestion of herbs eg ginseng may extend life but does not allow one to escape death.

 

I would say the English translation is probably not exact because nobody can escape death totally as even the gods eventually grow old and die.

 

Eating herbs and doing breathing exercises may extend your life but will not stop the ageing process. You will live longer but as an aged person like the old qi gong and taichi masters you see, long lived but old.

 

If you want to slow down the actual ageing process no amount of qi breathing exercises will help, you must become an alchemist if you want to look young in old age.

 

right. And this is the difference between real internal alchemy and multiple qigong methods. By breathing, daoyin, herbs and many other methods it's impossible to become Xian-Immortal, which is the essence of the Great Dao.

[Taoist Texts]

If you want to slow down the actual ageing process no amount of qi breathing exercises will help, you must become an alchemist if you want to look young in old age.

Have you seen some one like that? A young old alchemist?

[Andrei]

Why would you want to "look" young in old age? I would rather be healthy and functional in old age than "look young".

[Junko]

From my experiences mind does slow down the process of aging.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Junko

[opendao]

Why would you want to "look" young in old age? I would rather be healthy and functional in old age than "look young".

 

it's a test of some high level results. "Look young" has no other function.

 

Slow qi breathing, along with other slow activities: slower walking, slower talking, slower thinking, allows one to decondition their stress response. This is a positive, achievable spiritual goal. It is (only) one helpful, foundational aid to assist in reaching the gateway of emptiness.

 

there are 2 ways: direct and reverse. You speak about direct and preserving Qi, Daoism speaks about reverse and replenishing. Direct way works, but doesn't give results of the reverse path.

 

Once you have deconditioned your stress response over a number of years, and you reach the emptiness 24/7, you will have formed the immortal fetus. When you die your physical death, your spirit lives on.

 

spirit lives on anyway, so it's not the goal of Dao cultivation.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Most of what we seeing as "aging" is actually just destructive effects of modern living.

 

Organs being fossilized by chemicals and so forth.

 

Inactivity.

 

Not going outside of homes, cars, buildings much.

 

And most "diseases of aging" are actually just degenerative conditions from bad food and medicine.

 

Doesn't have much to do with age.

 

But the longer people do it, the "worse" they look and function.

 

This body is what is gestating the spiritual infant in same way that the placenta gestated this body in the womb.

 

Gestation is being warped.

 

And foreshortened.

 

"Breathing" can only do so much.

 

Compared to all the tortured animals and synthetic chemicals eaten over decades and decades of "living".

 

THAT is what is doing the "breathing".

 

No seminar or workshop can reverse this.

 

No teacher can.

 

Teachers also subject to this.

 

But you must do it.

 

In order to begin or continue real cultivation.

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[opendao]

Please say more.

 

After death Hung soul continues to live anyway. You need no practice to get such result. 

 

 What's not the goal of "Dao cultivation"?

 

to follow the direct way of things and die is not the goal of Dao cultivation. 

 

to transform the Hung soul and "attain Dao", "entering sainthood", "becoming a shenxian" are the goals of Dao cultivation.

[d4rr3n]

Have you seen some one like that? A young old alchemist?

Alchemy belongs to another age literally, you wont find them walking around, even if you go to remote mountains to seek them out it is unlikely you will find any, as I said alchemy belongs to another age and today the word is used to describe everything, everyone now is an alchemist because alchemy has become everything.

[Gerard]

You'll age no matter what: rich, poor or a Buddha.

 

Now to live a healthy life it depends of various factors:

 

1. Amount of pre-natal Jing. People born in water years (ending in 2 & 3) and under a water sign (pig, rat, ox) liver longer lives since they have more water (and hence jing) in their Ba Zi charts.

 

2. A blocked or deficient organ/meridian puts an extra burden in the Kidney, hence you'll age quicker. Therefore your goal is to correct this situation via energetic work (addressing the blockage or deficiency in question) and herbal medicine.

 

3. Quality of food you eat

 

4. Quality of air you breathe

 

5. How well you manage stress and adapt to change

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Aetherous]

If you are improving your health and are increasing your lifespan, then you are definitely slowing down the aging process...although of course it's not the path of xian. We, in our secular society, are unaware of people actually living forever. Therefore, common sense tells us that improving health and living longer are worthwhile pursuits, whereas doing obscure things in order to live forever is not. It's better to be well than to have an illness. It's better to live a full life than to die young. It's better to spend time doing practical things that work, than untested things.

Perhaps alchemy should be considered a spiritual matter, rather than an extreme-longevity matter. Why confuse the subjects of being healthy and long-lived, with the subject of becoming a xian? It's like confusing math with literature. Different fields!

Also, isn't attaining health a prerequisite of higher spiritual matters? Physical healing is considered a lower level aspect of the Dao. We are at the lower level, and haven't passed the prerequisites...so perhaps our focus should be on breathing and herbs.

[Taoist Texts]

common sense tells us that improving health and living longer are worthwhile pursuits, whereas doing obscure things in order to live forever is not.

 

 

 

Perhaps alchemy should be considered a spiritual matter, rather than an extreme-longevity matter. Why confuse the subjects of being healthy and long-lived, with the subject of becoming a xian?

Because people pay more for the neidan promises of the health+rejuvenation+longevity+xianhood combo. Without getting anything eventually, of course.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Taoist Texts

[Taoist Texts]

Alchemy belongs to another age literally, you wont find them walking around, even if you go to remote mountains to seek them out it is unlikely you will find any,  

So you have seen no alchemist. Could you please tell us how your plan to become an alchemist yourself will work?

[Taoist Texts]

"All those who want to live a long life, but do not obtain the Divine Elixirs (shendan) and the Golden Liquor (jinye), merely bring suffering upon themselves.

 

Practising breathing and daoyin, exhaling the old and inhaling the new breath, and ingesting medicines of herbs and plants can extend the length of one's life, but does not allow one to escape death."

Huangdi jiuding shendan jingjue

 

Above we are told that breathing exercises, qigong, daoyin etc and the ingestion of herbs eg ginseng may extend life but does not allow one to escape death.

 

I would say the English translation is probably not exact because nobody can escape death totally 

 

黄帝受还丹至道于玄女。玄女者，天女也。黄帝合而服之，遂以登仙。玄女告黄帝日：凡欲长生，而不得神丹金液，徒自苦耳。虽呼吸导引，吐故纳新，及服草木之药，可得延年，不兔于死也

 

 

No, it is exact. 可得延年，can extend years 不兔于死也 will not escape death

[opendao]

If you are improving your health and are increasing your lifespan, then you are definitely slowing down the aging process...although of course it's not the path of xian. We, in our secular society, are unaware of people actually living forever. Therefore, common sense tells us that improving health and living longer are worthwhile pursuits, whereas doing obscure things in order to live forever is not. It's better to be well than to have an illness. It's better to live a full life than to die young. It's better to spend time doing practical things that work, than untested things.

 

Perhaps alchemy should be considered a spiritual matter, rather than an extreme-longevity matter. Why confuse the subjects of being healthy and long-lived, with the subject of becoming a xian? It's like confusing math with literature. Different fields!

 

Also, isn't attaining health a prerequisite of higher spiritual matters? Physical healing is considered a lower level aspect of the Dao. We are at the lower level, and haven't passed the prerequisites...so perhaps our focus should be on breathing and herbs.

 

 

1. Physical health is important, and there are no "sick immortals". So health and "becoming xian" cannot be separated. But the way to obtain health is different in Dao cultivation and Qigong: different ways, different approaches.

 

2. Longevity is just a side effect of the correct practice.

 

3. "Young looking old alchemist" is the only proof of the correctness of some stages of the alchemy.

 

If you learn Dao from a school, where the masters are sick, look old and die, then you waste time, and it cannot be named Neidan or Dao cultivation. It sounds like a maxima, but it's the only way not to be fooled.

 

The immortality is a corner stone of the alchemy, and if you pretend to learn the alchemy (and not something else), then you need to know in details what "immortality" means on various stages, how it affects the physical body, what are the signs of progress etc. If you know that then you can find a teacher, because you know what to look for. If you don't know any forum troll will be your friend on your way down.

 

Again, the only possibility to learn the alchemy is to meet Xian. If you were not able to do that, or if you haven't even tried, because you had more important things in your life or you don't believe in texts, then it doesn't prove Xian don't exist. But maybe it proves that it's not your way in this life. It's ok, there is nothing bad to be "common sense". Horizon is very different for everyone. And the balance between celestial souls Hung and earth souls Po is also different for everyone.

 

The wise student hears of the Tao and practices it diligently. 

The average student hears of the Tao and gives it thought now and again. 

The foolish student hears of the Tao and laughs aloud. 

If there were no laughter, the Tao would not be what it is. 

(Dao De Jing 41, translated by Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English)

 

I wish you not to be foolish or average dao students. I really think it's better to switch to something else: dances, music, beer drinking, tv watching, forum reading and other usual "longevity practices" you like if you feel impossibility to find and practice the ancient Dao.

[Aithrobates]

And what about ethic ? There is also a big difference between willing to live long and healthy for one's own benefits of having a good and full life and wanting to go beyond mortality in order to fulfill a cosmic role.

 

Being a good human is a good thing, many do not even achieve that. Following a boddhisattvic path is a different thing. It depends on whom sake we practice for. Us or all sentient beings. (I don't have the terms to express this in daoist terms, buddhists words will have to do the trick )

[opendao]

And what about ethic ? There is also a big difference between willing to live long and healthy for one's own benefits of having a good and full life and wanting to go beyond mortality in order to fulfill a cosmic role.

 

Being a good human is a good thing, many do not even achieve that. Following a boddhisattvic path is a different thing. It depends on whom sake we practice for. Us or all sentient beings. (I don't have the terms to express this in daoist terms, buddhists words will have to do the trick )

 

really good point. The inner sincere willingness to help people is the "virtue"-De necessary to find a teacher and attain Dao. And Buddhist words are good, many Daoist masters used them in this context. 

 

I don't usually like to quote myself, but I feel it has more sense to write it here:

----------------------------------

we need to define, what is happiness really?

 

Buddhism says directly: "no struggling". So the idea is to save all beings out of struggling.

 

Daoism is more moderate about it, but in Dao De Jing the idea is similar: the king can save its people through own Dao cultivation, meaning he has to achieve the level when his own De saves people out of struggling.

 

The same idea is in Orthodox Christianity: "Save yourself, and thousands will be saved around you" (Seraphim of Sarov).

 

How it can be possible? The answer is simple: the Dao cultivation grows De and makes it miraculous. That's the only way to help people and make them really happy.

----------------------------------

 

We've discussed the meaning of De and "virtue" somewhere. That's how the ethics and De are really connected.

[Taoist Texts]

And what about ethic ? There is also a big difference between willing to live long and healthy for one's own benefits of having a good and full life and wanting to go beyond mortality in order to fulfill a cosmic role.

 What cosmic role?

If you learn Dao from a school, where the masters are sick, look old and die, then you waste time, and it cannot be named Neidan or Dao  

That is why there are no pictures of the masters who allegedly are not subject to these things. Because they are. (wink wink)

[d4rr3n]

So you have seen no alchemist. Could you please tell us how your plan to become an alchemist yourself will work?

I have studied alchemy for many years, mostly western alchemy and the old text. Because of that I know that most of these modern books which claim to teach alchemy are pure rubbish, they haven't got a clue. You also have people teaching alchemy classes who dont know what alchemy is themselves. In our modern times alchemists are so rare there are probably not more then a few on the whole planet so your chances of meeting one is practically zero.

[d4rr3n]

3. "Young looking old alchemist" is the only proof of the correctness of some stages of the alchemy.

 

If you learn Dao from a school, where the masters are sick, look old and die, then you waste time, and it cannot be named Neidan or Dao cultivation. It sounds like a maxima, but it's the only way not to be fooled.

Exactly, if your teacher looks his/her age he dont know alchemy simple as that. This in fact is the only practical way to quickly discern if a teacher knows anything worth knowing. If your teacher looks old and sick for their age walk away because no matter how nice or wise they seam they simply have not found it.

[d4rr3n]

And what about ethic ? There is also a big difference between willing to live long and healthy for one's own benefits of having a good and full life and wanting to go beyond mortality in order to fulfill a cosmic role.

 

Being a good human is a good thing, many do not even achieve that. Following a boddhisattvic path is a different thing. It depends on whom sake we practice for. Us or all sentient beings. (I don't have the terms to express this in daoist terms, buddhists words will have to do the trick )

Well I imagine if you managed to acquire this knowledge you would be a rare and blessed individual anyway, then to chose a few good students and teach it to them would be for the good of other sentient beings. I think ultimately if you are lucky enough to learn something like this you have a responsibility to teach someone, otherwise its just greed.

[Taoist Texts]

I have studied alchemy for many years, mostly western alchemy and the old text. 

Great so you learned from books, thats fantastic. Any luck on making the elixir yet?

[Brian]

<snip>

If you learn Dao from a school, where the masters are sick, look old and die, then you waste time, and it cannot be named Neidan or Dao cultivation. It sounds like a maxima, but it's the only way not to be fooled.

<snip>

I am sincerely curious about this -- how old are you, opendao? How old are the teachers in your school? Hundreds of years? Thousands? How many are there at this point?