Qi breathing will not slow the aging process

[Taoist Texts]

I am sincerely curious about this -- how old are you, opendao? How old are the teachers in your school? Hundreds of years? Thousands? How many are there at this point?

 

I will be a dear and eversohelpfully bump this up;)

[Daeluin]

so what do you suggest if it is the case? Lie and say that other schools are complete and good?

Twist and say "every school has something to offer"?

Say nothing and hide in mountains?

Sages prefer to tell truth, if it creates wrong associations for wrong people, then sages look at that as on something unavoidable. They care more about good people. Good people see that the things are not equal, and differentiate clearly. 

 

I like your wu 武 approach. In that it is firm and stable. It attempts to keep things in their correct positions.

 

It also leads to contention (䷅), and people follow you around just to poke at your authoritarianism, like lichen growing on a cliff face. Naturally ䷅ is in effect in the cantong qi cycle now - day 2 of the new moon, hexagrams 5 and 6.

 

Zhuangzi speaks on this type of thing frequently. There is no absolute right or wrong. Everything may be perceived as right or wrong from some perspective. After every yang there is yin, after every yin there is yang. So expressing an absolute right or wrong-ness will usually call forth the polarity.

 

However great a teacher is, there are students they will not be able to reach. However complete a school may be, it has yet to grow and change. However assured one's position is, stating it may still cause more harm than good. Even as I do here. What do I really know in the end?

 

Sometimes we feel there are rights and wrongs... yet the sages advise when in contentious situations, that one must at least stop half-way to achieve good results: In Contention, there should be sincerity. Exercise prudence in handling obstruction. To halt half-way means good fortune. To persist to the end means misfortune. It is fitting to see the great man. It is not fitting to cross the great water.

[opendao]

I think it was Joseph Needham who did a reconstruction of an hypothetical Chinese original for the tabula smaragdina.

 

Yes, it sounded very Chinese for him... not only for him though. Even if it's just a coincidence, it shows parallels very good.

[opendao]

I like your wu 武 approach. It is firm and stable. It attempts to keep things in their correct positions.

 

It also leads to contention (䷅), and people follow you around just to poke at your authoritarianism, like lichen growing on a cliff face. Naturally ䷅ is in effect in the cantong qi cycle now - day 2 of the new moon, hexagrams 5 and 6.

 

Zhuangzi speaks on this type of thing frequently. There is no absolute right or wrong. Everything may be perceived as right or wrong from some perspective. After every yang there is yin, after every yin there is yang. So expressing an absolute right or wrong-ness will usually call forth the polarity.

 

However great a teacher is, there are students they will not be able to reach. However complete a school may be, it has yet to grow and change. However assured one's position is, stating it may still cause more harm than good. Even as I do here. What do I really know in the end?

 

This is your position based on your understanding and experience. Teachers thinks differently based on different position and experience. So for you true words bring more harm, for them - more good. Right and wrong don't depend on the perspective for them. Yijing for them is not a book of personal excuses to "wisely" be weak. And so on. Maybe because previous generations wasn't scary to tell the truth?

[Daeluin]

This is your position based on your understanding and experience. Teachers thinks differently based on different position and experience. So for you true words bring more harm, for them - more good. Right and wrong don't depend on the perspective for them. Yijing for them is not a book of personal excuses to "wisely" be weak. And so on. Maybe because previous generations wasn't scary to tell the truth?

 

Oh I simply feel there are many kinds of true words which do not lead to contention. When one sees from all perspectives, what need is there for harsh words?

 

 

– 17 –

 

The greatest type of ruler is one of whose existence

the people are hardly aware.

Next best is a leader who is loved and praised.

Next comes the one who is feared.

The worst is the one who is despised.

 

When a leader doesn’t trust the people,

they will become untrustworthy.

 

The best leader speaks little.

He never speaks carelessly.

He works without self interest

and leaves no trace.

When the work is accomplished,

the people say: “Amazing:

we did it all by ourselves.”

[opendao]

I am sincerely curious about this -- how old are you, opendao? How old are the teachers in your school? Hundreds of years? Thousands? How many are there at this point?

 

There are some at the point of what I told before, that's why I told what I told before. Other info is confidential or irrelevant (my age).

 

And you're not very attentive, I didn't tell there are any reasons to live very long (in this world). There are more pleasant things to do...

 

I wrote that sick, old and dying teachers don't know Dao.

But "young looking old alchemist" is a hint that something is right.

 

Sorry, no pictures and any proofs are not a subject of the open forum. Just because it's the way it is. None of the immortals will chase you with documents dated 1765 to get your attention 

Edited February 10, 2016 by opendao

[Aithrobates]

If you traced Alchemy right back to its beginning you would end up in the Arctic circle (hyperborea), from there it travelled south into Egypt, China, India, Sumeria, ancient Greece etc etc

 

I agree that the oldest greek traditions claim to come form Hyperborea, or at least to have been in contact with hyperboreans.

 

But Hyperborea is not the physical Artic. It's a common mythological data of a "Northern Otherworld" you'll find it in Indian and Celtic myth too. Cosmological North, Axis Mundi, the Big Dipper.

 

The greeks used their mythological traditions to describe positive geography. They had litteraly dozens of hypothesis on where Hyperborea was actually located. In the texts where early philosophers are said to be instructed from Hyperborea, the term descibes a land far North and East of the mediterranean world, that would roughly be our Tibet, Mongolia, Northern China.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Aithrobates

[Brian]

There are some at the point of what I told before, that's why I told what I told before. Other info is confidential or irrelevant (my age).

 

And you're not very attentive, I didn't tell there are any reasons to live very long (in this world). There are more pleasant things to do...

 

I wrote that sick, old and dying teachers don't know Dao.

But "young looking old alchemist" is a hint that something is right.

 

Sorry, no pictures and any proofs are not a subject of the open forum. Just because it's the way it is. None of the immortals will chase you with documents dated 1765 to get your attention

If you were more attentive to my attentiveness, you would understand why I asked.

 

[d4rr3n]

I agree that the oldest greek traditions claim to come form Hyperborea, or at least to have been in contact with hyperboreans.

 

But Hyperborea is not the physical Artic. It's a common mythological data of a "Northern Otherworld" you'll find it in Indian and Celtic myth too. Cosmological North, Axis Mundi, the Big Dipper.

 

The greeks used their mythological traditions to describe positive geography. They had litteraly dozens of hypothesis on where Hyperborea was actually located. In the texts where early philosophers are said to be instructed from Hyperborea, the term descibes a land far North and East of the mediterranean world, that would roughly be our Tibet, Mongolia, Northern China.

In Celtic mythology we are told that the Northern otherworld is a non physical realm, home to the Celtic gods much like mount Olympus in Greek mythology or mount Meru in Indian mythology. It is a place ot eternal joy, a place where people live to extrema old age free of sickness, a place where there is no night.

 

Some of these gods however descended into our world and took on physical body's. In Irish mythology they are called the thutha de danann. They built a civilisation up in the Arctic circle, four great city's when weather conditions on this planet was different. They were driven out of those lands southward by climate changes which caused expanding ice sheets.

They seeded the original royal family's of this Earth.

 

Some of them descended into ancient Greece and their descendent s were known as the Danaans.

 

It was from the descendants of these people that the whole world inherited the esoteric teachings.

Edited February 10, 2016 by d4rr3n

[Aithrobates]

In Celtic mythology we are told that the Northern otherworld is a non physical realm, home to the Celtic gods much like mount Olympus in Greek mythology or mount Meru in Indian mythology. It is a place ot eternal joy, a place where people live to extrema old age free of sickness, a place where there is no night.

 

Some of these gods however descended into our world and took on physical body's.

 

Down to this point I'm ok. As for the rest...

 

The Arctic origin of sacred traditions, royality, indo-europeans, even of civilisation itself, is a kind of right-wing fantasy. It's based on the idea that so called superior ice races from the North are opposed to inferior fire races of the South. If you do not identify yourself as a nazi and disagree with this racist view, I'd suggest you question your sources on this arctic theory.

[Taoist Texts]

  If you do not identify yourself as a nazi and disagree with this racist view, 

Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Godwin's Law (or Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies) 

 

 

     What took you so long?

[Aithrobates]

Lol ^^ But this Arctic thing is really of nazi origin !

 

I was not even comparing d4r33n to a nazi. Just telling him that knowingly or not he was profesing such a theory. Thinking by default that he is, of course not, nazi, I'm just advising him to question the sources from were he got this idea, because he may very well find things he will not like.

[d4rr3n]

Down to this point I'm ok. As for the rest...

 

The Arctic origin of sacred traditions, royality, indo-europeans, even of civilisation itself, is a kind of right-wing fantasy. It's based on the idea that so called superior ice races from the North are opposed to inferior fire races of the South. If you do not identify yourself as a nazi and disagree with this racist view, I'd suggest you question your sources on this arctic theory.

The Nazi took there inspiration from Germanic and Celtic mythology because those are the teachings. I care little if people think its nazi to believe it or not, the truth is the truth.

 

The big difference is that in Celtic mythology those Tuatha Dé Danann are not us, none of us are them, they went into the Earth according to Celtic mythology and left our world. Or as the Greeks would say the Titans went into tartarus the underworld. The only genetic remnant of them here on Earth was the royal blood lines and now these are so diluted that they dont even exist.

 

First there were the gods, then the god-kings who were demigods, then the royal blood lines....now nothing, all thoroughly diluted.

 

Nazis instead teach that they are those gods but its clear from celtic mythology that those gods came from a northern other world a place which is here but not physical much like the phantom Islands in Taoist mythology.

 

Its worth reading what the ancient Alchemist Zosimos of Panopolis has to say about the origins of the teachings of Alchemy.

[Taoist Texts]

 Other info is confidential or irrelevant (my age).

A youngish guy selling rejuvenation. Not much hands on experience there))

But "young looking old alchemist" is a hint that something is right.

is a non existent hint a sign that something is wrong?

 

Sorry, no pictures 

Even if these rejuvenation salesmen retouch the photographs of their twenty-something faces, the creeping up signs of the old age will be obvious. The  jowls that begin to sag, the receding hairline, the weakened eyes can not be hid.

 

Thats why there is no pictures. How long before those naive enough to go for a personal meeting will be taken aback by their sight muttering 'But dude..you  look old'. I am figuring 3-4 years.

None of the immortals will chase you with documents dated 1765 to get your attention 

One reason for that is their death certificate is  dated  1834.)

[Aithrobates]

The Nazi took there inspiration from Germanic and Celtic mythology because those are the teachings. I care little if people think its nazi to believe it or not, the truth is the truth.

 

I still disagree with the claim that the mythologies tell that. But that's OK. You're aware of the nazi view on that matter. That's what I was wondering. Thanks.

 

 

Its worth reading what the ancient Alchemist Zosimos of Panopolis has to say about the origins of the teachings of Alchemy.

 

I have all of Zozimus here, any passage in particular so that we can discuss it precisely ?

[d4rr3n]

I still disagree with the claim that the mythologies tell that. But that's OK. You're aware of the nazi view on that matter. That's what I was wondering. Thanks.

"The Tuatha De Danann were in the northern islands of the world, studying occult lore and sorcery, druidic arts and witchcraft and magical skill, until they surpassed the sages of the pagan arts."

The Second Battle of Mag Tuired

 

Plus the word "Tuatha" means North in Irish

 

"These are people of the goddess, Danu. Tuatha refers to a type of people who hail from the north. A magical kind of people who were agriculturally inclined. De points to the word goddess, and Danann refers to the deity, Danu."

 

In addition to this there are tails of Irish sailing North trying to find this land  (Voyage of Saint Brendan)

 

Just to show that is in fact the genuine teaching on this matter

 

Not to forget early Taoist text on Alchmey in both the Waidan and Neidan talk about the Taoists desire to travel heavenwards to the little dipper (the northern pole star)to the purple palace to communicate with the gods

 

I have all of Zozimus here, any passage in particular so that we can discuss it precisely ?

He talks about how the art of alchemy was inherited from, essentially those who descended into our world from the other world.

Edited February 10, 2016 by d4rr3n

[Brian]

Wait, so the Tuatha De Danann were a splinter group from the National Socialist Party?

 

 

I am so confused.

[Aithrobates]

"The Tuatha De Danann were in the northern islands of the world, studying occult lore and sorcery, druidic arts and witchcraft and magical skill, until they surpassed the sages of the pagan arts." [...]

 

I'm not questioning the mystical signifiance of the North, nor the divine origin of spiritual traditions. That is documented in many, many cultures.

 

What I don't follow is the claim of an Arctic country back in the days. But it's true that the mythical lands are often sublty assimilated to actual geographical, said to be there, and yet mysteriously beyond and elsewhere. Like if the material place was nothing but a mere manifestation of a spiritual kingdom that is not really located there. After all Pytheas did travel to Hyperborea. But Aristeas did too, and their respective travel point to two different places (Northern Europe vs Inner Asia).

 

What I also do not follow is your claim about the origin of royalty, bloodlines, etc...

 

 

He talks about how the art of alchemy was inherited from, essentially those who descended into our world from the other world.

 

Yes. Given the cultural context in which Zozimus talked it's probably about the Nephilim. Hard to say what was the view on them back in those specific times and places.

 

If it's Nephilim we're talking about, we have indeed the theme of engendering royal bloodlines.

 

But what are the analogies with Celtic and Northern myths? What about the Northern Otherworld ?

Edited February 10, 2016 by Aithrobates

[opendao]

[d4rr3n]

 

I'm not questioning the mystical signifiance of the North, nor the divine origin of spiritual traditions. That is documented in many, many cultures.

 

What I don't follow is the claim of an Arctic country back in the days. But it's true that the mythical lands are often sublty assimilated to actual geographical, said to be there, and yet mysteriously beyond and elsewhere. Like if the material place was nothing but a mere manifestation of a spiritual kingdom that is not really located there. After all Pytheas did travel to Hyperborea. But Aristeas did too, and their respective travel point to two different places (Northern Europe vs Inner Asia).

 

What I also do not follow is your claim about the origin of royalty, bloodlines, etc...

 

 

 

Yes. Given the cultural context in which Zozimus talked it's probably about the Nephilim. Hard to say what was the view on them back in those specific times and places.

 

If it's Nephilim we're talking about, we have indeed the theme of engendering royal bloodlines.

 

But what are the analogies with Celtic and Northern myths? What about the Northern Otherworld ?

Even in Greek mythology you have gods who come from mount Olympus establishing physical city's on earth. Its exacly the same in celtic mythology you have gods from the northern other world descending to Earth and establishing the four city's of Falias, Gorias, Murias, and Findias up in the Arctic circle.

 

"The Indestructibles (Egyptian ikhemu-sek – literally "the ones not knowing destruction"^[1]) was the name given by Ancient Egyptian astronomers to two bright stars which, at that time, could always be seen circling the North Pole.^[2] The name is directly related to Egyptian belief in constant North as a portal to heaven for pharaohs"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Indestructibles

 

 

Also would you say Bal Gangadhar Tilak is a Nazi because he said the story of the veda has an origin up in the Arctic circle ?

 

For that matter are the ancient Greeks Nazis for believing in hyperbola as a physical place, We will then have to label most of the ancient world as Nazis then.

 

As to Zozimus, he must have been aware of the book of Enoch

 

"Thou seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were in heaven, which men were striving to learn."

 

Adam and Eve are banished from the garden of Eden with its four rivers by the elohim  (Eden is obviously meru). The fall of man from being a heavenly being with eternal life to an earthly man destined to die on the earth plain.

 

Cain was banished first and he went out to establish the first civilisation, Tubal cain the first human skilled in the knowledge of metals.

 

Its clear some of the early Taoists had as their goal to use the Jindan so that they could visit the gods in the northern other world.

Edited February 11, 2016 by d4rr3n

[Aithrobates]

It's Ok to disagree, and I think we can do that for a long time. You are putting bits and pieces of myths here and there, only to stick them to your own interpretation, like it was part of the raw data.

 

All the cosmological traditions about the North you give are authentic, but none prove your theory of artic colonisation in themselves, IMO. It seem automatic in your argumentation that a mention of the cosmological North equals the existence of an actual Northern land. It's your right to think so, but if you want to persuade others you'll have to give a demonstration. Raw data in themselves do not prove your interpretation of them.

 

I think, and that it's not the first time I'm saying that to someone, that you ignore the existence of the imaginal world, the world of the soul, alam al-mithal. Laking this you are left only with the tangible material world, uncorporeal principles, and fantasies. Recognizing the truth in the traditions your are reading, you can not think that they are false, fantasies. As the datas are consistent en practical you can not take them for mere symbol of unattainable intellectual realities far beyond. So you have only one option left. This material world.

 

But there is also a fourth option, that is the imaginal reality of the myths. Imaginal world is where myths happen. Those are not material events from the old times, they are atemporal events of the souls that are happening in Eternity.

 

You do not need to find an historical truth behind the myths. Mythology is not an archaic form of history were things are recorded poetically. History as we know it was invented during the 19th, and goes with nationalism and romantism; that's why German or Indian or whaterver nationalists felt the urge to interpret their myths and to transform them into (fake) history.

 

Parcelsus or Geber, the ones you find too hermetic to be usable ? Both Paracelsus and the persian alchemy form which Geber (Jabir Ibn Hayyan) comes speaks about how to acces the imaginal.

 

Cosmological North is not about an inaccessible divine realm or the long lost city they founded there in the old days. It's a reality of the soul that can be experienced with the correct practice.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Aithrobates

[Andrei]

[vonkrankenhaus]

Old stories:

 

One must include the Ice Age that ended 10-12,000 years ago.

 

And the Maunder Minimum more recently.

 

The Ice Age caused much North-South movement of people.

 

People went South during it.

 

And North afterwards.

 

Many old stories are about precession.

 

And the Ice Age is half of that cycle.

 

The movement of people gave rise to many stories about North people, and the Vedic "Krishna" stories seem to me to be "political" and about the combining of the Northern with the Southern people.

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[d4rr3n]

Parcelsus or Geber, the ones you find too hermetic to be usable ? Both Paracelsus and the persian alchemy form which Geber (Jabir Ibn Hayyan) comes speaks about how to acces the imaginal.

I suggested they are not good for someone who is starting to learn. Alchemy is secret and all (without exception)  write in code however their coding is so think that only somebody who already understands the whole process can understand their writings on the subject, and if you already understand the whole process what need do you have of reading their works?

Edited February 11, 2016 by d4rr3n

[d4rr3n]

I think that is a more modern interpretation of neidan. If your goal is to reach the Dao you don't even need to practice Alchemy, do meditation instead.