Qi breathing will not slow the aging process

[d4rr3n]

Great so you learned from books, thats fantastic. Any luck on making the elixir yet?

Haha alchemy is no trivial subject these books are all written in coded language so it took me years to even understand what the hell they were talking about. I have not yet made the elixir but I now understand most of the procedure. I had no one to help, no teacher but that is the path of the alchemist, all these western alchemical text say they had to go through the same lonely journey with only a few old books to help them.

[butterydime]

Haha alchemy is no trivial subject these books are all written in coded language so it took me years to even understand what the hell they were talking about. I have not yet made the elixir but I now understand most of the procedure. I had no one to help, no teacher but that is the path of the alchemist, all these western alchemical text say they had to go through the same lonely journey with only a few old books to help them.

 

Then what books do you suggest for newcomers interested in becoming a true alchemist? 

[Taoist Texts]

  I have not yet made the elixir but I now understand most of the procedure. I had no one to help, no teacher but that is the path of the alchemist, all these western alchemical text say they had to go through the same lonely journey with only a few old books to help them.

Finally! An honest alchemist! You are the man. Respect and sincere wishes for you to succeed.

[leth]

Good health is always visible for one with a trained eye.

 

Someone with a good interal alchemy will look healthy because they are healthy.

[silent thunder]

I have found that good health, limber mobility and stabilized emotions are an unavoidable side effect of the work, which to me, falls under the category of slowing the aging process, if we define aging as the degeneration of mental/body function and quality of life. 

 

However I don't share the goal it seems many have in stretching out physical manifestation for centuries, or anything even remotely resembling immortality.  It seems I'm just not that attached to this body and have never had a fear of death.  While I thoroughly enjoy my body/mind and my life process, I have no desire to foster it indefinitely, nor am I interested in a yang energy body that lives for eons.  What I am consumed by, is the exponential growth in compassionate love that results from the work.

[opendao]

I have studied alchemy for many years, mostly western alchemy and the old text. Because of that I know that most of these modern books which claim to teach alchemy are pure rubbish, they haven't got a clue. You also have people teaching alchemy classes who dont know what alchemy is themselves. In our modern times alchemists are so rare there are probably not more then a few on the whole planet so your chances of meeting one is practically zero.

 

so you haven't met but think that by books you can become one?

I have sad news for you: in the history of Neidan / Jindan / Dao cultivation there was no one who could do that.

Many tried, many are trying now, but it's all waste of time.

No teacher with results - no school producing such results. Time is yours.

[Daeluin]

3. "Young looking old alchemist" is the only proof of the correctness of some stages of the alchemy.

 

 

If you judge a person's spiritual development on their outer form, you may be passing the opportunity to learn from a truly achieved one.

 

Internal alchemy is subtle beyond anything discussed in this thread.

 

I get the sense that it is more common for people to focus on the spiritual stages of alchemy. Perhaps with the goal of spiritual freedom. Or perhaps these stages are more accessible for learning and guidance. I believe it has been said that the ming methods are more hidden, or perhaps have been lost in the past. As in ming 性 and xing 命.

 

It does seem curious that, while quite healthy, many masters do still appear to be under the influence of aging. It also is written that one allows one's "incense stick" to run its course, "ascending" to the realms beyond after shedding one's physical shell. In this sense I wonder if the goal for alchemy needs to include complete reversal of the ming to a youthful state, or just enough replenishment and refinement of the ming for the needs of completing the elixir. It would appear that many of the side-effects of alchemy include unlocking any number of siddhis, which of course are not the point. Does replenishing the skin to the state where it feels newly born and smells like flower blossoms assist in the goal of alchemy? Does scar-tissue prevent immortal ascension? I doubt one's hair color influences creating the jindan directly, but is it possible for one to have enough of what could replenish the hair color in order to create the jindan, without having been circulated in the proper ways necessary to return the hair color? Or perhaps it is related to how far one is able to refine their elixir?

 

So I am curious - is reclaiming youth in the fullest sense necessary, or does it depend on where one's goal is set? Though I doubt any of us here can claim any authority on this subject.

 

Personally I'm not one for shortcuts. If one is humble and sincere, one will find what one needs and one's destiny will come into alignment. In some cases it might take longer (lifetimes) than others, but that is no reason to stray from the dao.

[d4rr3n]

so you haven't met but think that by books you can become one?

I have sad news for you: in the history of Neidan / Jindan / Dao cultivation there was no one who could do that.

Many tried, many are trying now, but it's all waste of time.

No teacher with results - no school producing such results. Time is yours.

Like I said my main study has been western Alchemy, I have only dabbled in a few Chinese text but its clear the waidan tradition is exactly the same as western alchemy. There are only very small differences but the theory behind it is the same. Western alchemists often had no teacher, they have a few old books they read over and over, they pray to God to enlighten them...and one day they get their wish.

 

Real alchemy is a secret thing anyway, anyone who tells you they will openly teach it doesn't know it.

[d4rr3n]

There may be some confusion here between a Taoist and an Alchemists.

 

A Taoist is searching for the no-thing (the Dao)

 

An Alchemist is searching for something (the Jindan)

 

They are both searching but not for the same thing, many people are searching for different things.

[opendao]

There may be some confusion here between a Taoist and an Alchemists.

 

A Taoist is searching for the no-thing (the Dao)

 

An Alchemist is searching for something (the Jindan)

 

They are both searching but not for the same thing, many people are searching for different things.

 

no, there is no such confusion. Great Dao is Jindan: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/40441-waidan-and-early-neidan-vs-later-neidan/?p=673423

[opendao]

Like I said my main study has been western Alchemy, I have only dabbled in a few Chinese text but its clear the waidan tradition is exactly the same as western alchemy. There are only very small differences but the theory behind it is the same. Western alchemists often had no teacher, they have a few old books they read over and over, they pray to God to enlighten them...and one day they get their wish.

 

Yes, I heard this phrase about Western alchemists many times... Still waiting for any results compared even to Waidan... Keep us informed, but don't rush to make parallels between 2 teachings you only read books about.

 

Real alchemy is a secret thing anyway, anyone who tells you they will openly teach it doesn't know it.

 

it's true. But it's just an excuse to not searching.

[d4rr3n]

Then what books do you suggest for newcomers interested in becoming a true alchemist? 

You can find most of the western Alchemical text online here

http://www.alchemywebsite.com/index.html

 

I would suggest avoiding anything written by Geber or paracelsus as these two are most jealous and coat their teachings in the deepest of obscure language.

 

I think Dr Sigismund Bacstrom is most open on the subject so I would suggest you meditate on the meaning behind his writing. Understand however that nobody in Alchemy speaks openly therefore you must always try to understand what is beneath. You will have to read many text before you start to formulate an idea of what is meant. You must also accept that you may study alchemy for the rest of your life and not fully understand it. Its not that the subject is so complicated rather it is that the knowledge is obscure and when written about heavily encoded.

 

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/bacsproc.html

Edited February 9, 2016 by d4rr3n

[d4rr3n]

no, there is no such confusion. Great Dao is Jindan: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/40441-waidan-and-early-neidan-vs-later-neidan/?p=673423

 

Even in Waidan text Jindan is the fine powder scraped from the lid of the crucible, explain how you can scrape the Dao from the lid of a crucible and make pills from it?

[opendao]

I get the sense that it is more common for people to focus on the spiritual stages of alchemy. Perhaps with the goal of spiritual freedom. Or perhaps these stages are more accessible for learning and guidance. I believe it has been said that the ming methods are more hidden, or perhaps have been lost in the past. As in ming 性 and xing 命.

 

It does seem curious that, while quite healthy, many masters do still appear to be under the influence of aging. It also is written that one allows one's "incense stick" to run its course, "ascending" to the realms beyond after shedding one's physical shell. In this sense I wonder if the goal for alchemy needs to include complete reversal of the ming to a youthful state, or just enough replenishment and refinement of the ming for the needs of completing the elixir. It would appear that many of the side-effects of alchemy include unlocking any number of siddhis, which of course are not the point. Does replenishing the skin to the state where it feels newly born and smells like flower blossoms assist in the goal of alchemy? Does scar-tissue prevent immortal ascension? I doubt one's hair color influences creating the jindan directly, but is it possible for one to have enough of what could replenish the hair color in order to create the jindan, without having been circulated in the proper ways necessary to return the hair color? Or perhaps it is related to how far one is able to refine their elixir?

 

So I am curious - is reclaiming youth in the fullest sense necessary, or does it depend on where one's goal is set? Though I doubt any of us here can claim any authority on this subject.

 

Personally I'm not one for shortcuts. If one is humble and sincere, one will find what one needs and one's destiny will come into alignment. In some cases it might take longer (lifetimes) than others, but that is no reason to stray from the dao.

 

There are different achievements in Dao cultivation. Depending when person starts, and what is the destiny, probably only some partial results are possible. The speech was about high level masters and how not to be fooled by charlatans, who sell us just "spiritual methods" because they have nothing else to offer. The full system is almost lost everywhere, water downed, almost extinct, but it's not a reason to stop looking for the complete truth.

 

Yes, it's possible to speed up some levels, even die on some levels to continue in new life, but it's not considered as a pure method, but as an incomplete method. Ancient Dao was very precise in its technology, and the condition of skin or hairs don't depend on the goal you set, but solely on the method you practice. That's how it's explained in a school, where such results exist, so probably it has some authority to share.

[opendao]

Even in Waidan text Jindan is the fine powder scraped from the lid of the crucible, explain how you can scrape the Dao from the lid of a crucible and make pills from it?

 

I'm speaking solely about Neidan, where Jindan term is widely used.

But the waidan method is similar, ingestion of the powder has the same effect as internal Dao cultivation. Again, it's a popular idea in Daoist texts in schools that have all 3 methods of cultivation.

Edited February 9, 2016 by opendao

[Daeluin]

There are different achievements in Dao cultivation. Depending when person starts, and what is the destiny, probably only some partial results are possible. The speech was about high level masters and how not to be fooled by charlatans, who sell us just "spiritual methods" because they have nothing else to offer. The full system is almost lost everywhere, water downed, almost extinct, but it's not a reason to stop looking for the complete truth.

 

Yes, it's possible to speed up some levels, even die on some levels to continue in new life, but it's not considered as a pure method, but as an incomplete method. Ancient Dao was very precise in its technology, and the condition of skin or hairs don't depend on the goal you set, but solely on the method you practice. That's how it's explained in a school, where such results exist, so probably it has some authority to share.

 

Thank you for the clarification. I think many of us here get caught up on absolutes, either in goals or in methods, while in reality there are many shades and layers.

 

It is nice to hear there may be schools that retain much of the completeness.

 

I think it is tricky though. When one hears "this school is complete, while most others are not" it can create a hierarchy in people's minds. Of course that is not the emphasis here.

[d4rr3n]

I'm speaking solely about Neidan, where Jindan term is widely used.

But the waidan method is similar, ingestion of the powder has the same effect as internal Dao cultivation. Again, it's a popular idea in Daoist texts in schools that have all 3 methods of cultivation.

In western alchemy both the external and internal elixirs are physical things.

 

What is the difference between this image of sun and moon joining in the abdominal area 

http://36.media.tumblr.com/571274f8f2ba7aecc2c5349b3f55ede0/tumblr_n69mx6EOBa1rtynt1o1_1280.jpg

 

And this image

http://xingshenzhuang.ro/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/meditazionetaoista.jpg

 

East and West but both talking about the same thing, only difference is that Western Alchemy does not talk about Dao so its clear dao has nothing to do with what they are searching for.

[opendao]

In western alchemy both the external and internal elixirs are physical things.

 

What is the difference between this image of sun and moon joining in the abdominal area 

http://36.media.tumblr.com/571274f8f2ba7aecc2c5349b3f55ede0/tumblr_n69mx6EOBa1rtynt1o1_1280.jpg

 

And this image

http://xingshenzhuang.ro/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/meditazionetaoista.jpg

 

The difference is in 2 merging into one and 3 joining on Daoist picture. The idea is similar, but none of the pictures show any physical things.

 

East and West but both talking about the same thing, only difference is that Western Alchemy does not talk about Dao so its clear dao has nothing to do with what they are searching for.

 

Tabula Smaragdina

Edited February 9, 2016 by opendao

[d4rr3n]

The difference is in 2 merging into one and 3 joining on Daoist picture. The idea is similar, but none of the pictures show any physical things.

 

 

Tabula Smaragdina

Sulphur, mercury and salt are three things...both images show the same thing

[opendao]

Thank you for the clarification. I think many of us here get caught up on absolutes, either in goals or in methods, while in reality there are many shades and layers.

 

It is nice to hear there may be schools that retain much of the completeness.

 

I think it is tricky though. When one hears "this school is complete, while most others are not" it can create a hierarchy in people's minds. Of course that is not the emphasis here.

 

so what do you suggest if it is the case? Lie and say that other schools are complete and good?

Twist and say "every school has something to offer"?

Say nothing and hide in mountains?

Sages prefer to tell truth, if it creates wrong associations for wrong people, then sages look at that as on something unavoidable. They care more about good people. Good people see that the things are not equal, and differentiate clearly. 

[opendao]

Sulphur, mercury and salt are three things...both images show the same thing

 

No, it's not the same, though it's about the same process. But the phases are different, and accents are different.

 

Sun, Moon and Fetus, which is Xing + Ming = Daotai in Daoist tradition.

On Daoist picture the characters are Jing - Qi - Shen, it's a picture of San Bao: 3 treasures.

 

anyway, it's irrelevant: there is nothing physical in Neidan.

[Aithrobates]

East and West but both talking about the same thing, only difference is that Western Alchemy does not talk about Dao so its clear dao has nothing to do with what they are searching for.

 

I can not read the chinese text in the second image. But I can read the imagery, the greek, the hebrew, the latin on the first. The western image has a load of cosmological symbolism. You can trace all them back, through greek alchemists from late antiquity, to even older times when the word "alchemy" didn't even exist.

 

If you follow the clues, that are very well hiddden in plain sight, you'll find yourself reading a greek poem advising to follow the Dao, and talking about many other things you'll find daoists parallels with.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Aithrobates

[opendao]

I can not read the chinese text in the second image. But I can read the imagery, the greek, the hebrew, the latin on the first. The western image has a load of cosmological symbolism. You can trace all them back, through greek alchemists from late antiquity, to even older times when the word "alchemy" didn't even exist.

 

I you follow the clues, that are very well hiddden in plain sight, you'll find yourself reading a greek poem advising to follow the Dao, and talking about many other things you'll find daoists parallels with.

 

Nice. The alchemy everywhere was based on the same principles. It looks like it was one art long long time ago in the past... 

 

What greek poem?

[d4rr3n]

I can not read the chinese text in the second image. But I can read the imagery, the greek, the hebrew, the latin on the first. The western image has a load of cosmological symbolism. You can trace all them back, through greek alchemists from late antiquity, to even older times when the word "alchemy" didn't even exist.

 

If you follow the clues, that are very well hiddden in plain sight, you'll find yourself reading a greek poem advising to follow the Dao, and talking about many other things you'll find daoists parallels with.

If you traced Alchemy right back to its beginning you would end up in the Arctic circle (hyperborea), from there it travelled south into Egypt, China, India, Sumeria, ancient Greece etc etc

[damdao]

If you follow the clues, that are very well hiddden in plain sight, you'll find yourself reading a greek poem advising to follow the Dao, and talking about many other things you'll find daoists parallels with.

 

I think it was Joseph Needham who did a reconstruction of an hypothetical Chinese original for the tabula smaragdina.