Neidan on the rise in the west?

[opendao]

Thank you Walker for the time spent to answer fallacies made by this blind pseudo-chinese samurai. 

 

Obviously Taoist Texts's confusions don't have any excuses, and just are results of a clear intention to fool people. Recently this hero and "myths destroyer" even accused DaoBums moderators who work here for free in all sins. They ask for donations, destroy the forum and don't make millions on ads just because his fucking adequately majesty is not in the directors board:

 

 

(sigh). This site sells ads, asks for donations, and its worth increases with the number of its members.

 

therefore

 

 

This here is a company, members are customers, and the moderators are customer service reps.

 

 But because  it is a mismanaged company, the inadequate  mods are killing it, that s all.

 

So I have a strong feeling of a paid trolling campaign or some strong mental diseases... Or even both. Who paid him thirty pieces of silver? I really don't care. But obviously this trickster has no any respect to Daoism and Daoist community, spreads misinformation to fool people, and has no any knowledge about Daoist tradition, so there is no good answer what he is doing here... 

[opendao]

The key is to recognize when there is an obfuscation and work on discovering the truth it is hiding. Oddly enough, attacking what is false tends to create even more of a mess, further obscuring the true. Pointing at the true from within the false is easy enough, but there aren't always students willing to look.

 

Hiding truth is not a false view... Good food is not in garbage bins.

 

Attacking what is false is the only way to keep the truth. And it's not a philosophy, it's a practical requirement for the inner work. 

 

"Lao Zi with a sword dispels cheaters and tricksters":

 

 

[Slim]

Wow, I’ve been missing some good discussion over the last few days. Taoist identity is complex and different from here in the West, and therefore lots of fun to talk about and try to figure out. Thanks for bringing up some excellent points Walker. Its helpful to have feedback from you guys (no but).

 

The main issue I’ve been wrestling with putting together the website and blog is how to present this stuff in a way that will connect with a modern western audience without selling out. As you guys know, Chinese culture is complex and different. Taoist culture is complex and different. How do I present this stuff in a way that makes sense and yet still retains its character, its depth and subtlety? 

 

Another issue is that as a writer I come from the western academic tradition, which carries its own burden. It can be dense and inaccessible to the outsider. How do I write in a straight up, non-academic vernacular, without drifting into the vague and overgeneralized? 

 

Over the last two decades I’ve learnt this stuff in a Chinese environment, and therefore I need to translate what I have learnt. However, translation is interpretation. So basically how do I give an interpretation of my experience without doing it injury?

 

So I did two things: I generalized, and I used words that would make sense for a general western audience. 

 

I think for the most part it has worked. But Walker you bring up some good points where maybe I have gone too far. 

 

Let’s look at the issue brought up about Wang Liping as head of the Dragon Gate Tradition. 

 

I have used the word "tradition" instead of "lineage." Longmen as Dragon Gate is simple, but pai is tricker. Pai is easy to translate, literally it means brach of river, and in usage it means lineage, no problem there. The issue is that in Western culture the idea of lineage is alien. A lot of people don’t know what to do with it. So I went with “tradition” to connect with a western audience. I still think it works: Dragon Gate Tradition has a nice ring to it. But without the word lineage things can become a little muddled. 

 

Is Wang Liping the leader of all longmen pai people? No. I had the same “beef” when I first came across Wang Liping’s writing in English. I feel your pain. My first Taoist teacher was longmen pai as well, so did that mean that Wang Liping was his head? I remember at the time thinking it was all a little suspect. 

 

The fault of misrepresentation is wholly my own. Wang Liping has always presented himself as the 18th generation holder of the Lao Shan Longmen Pai (Lao Shan is a mountain in Shandong Province). My sense is for the most part Wang’s students shorten it for ease of use (we’re a pretty easy going bunch). But I can’t speak for everyone, people being people I’m sure ego comes in to it at times. 

 

Everyone and their dog is Longmen Pai (Here in Vancouver we even have Longmen food delivery 龍門送餐). It’s a historical issue as you guys probably know. Bear with the short lecture. Two events had an impact on later Taoist identity. First, Yuan dynasty: Qiu Chuji wins over support from the Mongolian ruler. The Mongolian ruler says all Taoist stuff is now longmen pai, deal with it. Second, new rulers of Qing setup head of White Cloud Temple, Wang Changyue as patriarch of Quanzhen, having all lineages now coming from him. He is Longmen that means all new lineages from Qing to present are Longmen.

 

My first version of the site included reference to Lao Shan. But I took it out because I thought it too wordy and too historical. I was planning on doing a blog post about Wang Liping’s lineage to rectify leaving it out. But you’re right it should be in there. And what you said about changing the article from “the” to “a” tradition (or lineage) makes sense too. I’ll give it thought, it’s all a work in progress anyway. 

 

I used the word “head” for two reasons. First, it works with tradition. Holder works with lineage, which I didn’t want to use. Second, Wang has been given three lineage “commands,” basically giving him full responsibility for the lineage and the command to pass it on. This sets him apart from being just a holder, and I thought head represents that. I can’t remember what the three commands were, if anyone reading this knows let me know. One is to pass it on, becoming a transmitter, but not sure about the other two.

 

Well I’ll give all of this some thought; maybe a rewrite is in order.

 

Back to the subject of the thread. Now that more and more Taoist cultivation stuff and neidan is making its way westward, we have an opportunity to get it right. We must be able to transition this stuff in a way that maintains its integrity, that holds onto its essence, without it becoming some bland, generic, shadow of itself. It’s up to our generation to get it right. Thanks for the help.

 

Nathan

Edited February 23, 2016 by Nathan Brine

[Slim]

Also the Dragon Gate is not an organization,

 

Good point Taoist Texts. Dragon Gate is a lineage. There is a difference between organization/institution and lineage that is so overlooked. I think the issue is the modernization of religion in China. It is being westernized. There is an idea of being apart of an abstract category, like Quanzhen etc, that wasn't emphasized before. A 100 years ago the most important piece of info on your spiritual CV was your first master (even more important than which monastery you belonged to). You were located in a social network through the people you were associated with: your teacher and their teachers before them. 

[Daeluin]

The main issue I’ve been wrestling with putting together the website and blog is how to present this stuff in a way that will connect with a modern western audience without selling out. As you guys know, Chinese culture is complex and different. Taoist culture is complex and different. How do I present this stuff in a way that makes sense and yet still retains its character, its depth and subtlety? 

 

Another issue is that as a writer I come from the western academic tradition, which carries its own burden. It can be dense and inaccessible to the outsider. How do I write in a straight up, non-academic vernacular, without drifting into the vague and overgeneralized? 

 

When something has edges, others may grasp those edges, using them as handholds for leverage in digesting the obstacle placed in their path.

 

When something is smooth, the obstacle is clear, and not easily attacked.

 

The world is not black and white, but shades of gray, ever changing. When something is able to merge in harmony within the dominant paradigms of change, it might have a better chances of being perceived as smooth. When something proclaims anything that might be taken as an absolute, it produces an edge.

 

I've come to learn that it pays off to express things as humbly as I may. Then it is less likely for my words to need defending. If a pedestal is never raised, and nothing valued over something else, then there is little reason for attacking it.

 

The system known as "Non-Violent Communication" is a great way to study how common language structure can convey loaded messages we don't even intend. Such as "a" versus "the".

[Daeluin]

Hiding truth is not a false view... Good food is not in garbage bins.

 

Actually, great food can be found in garbage bins.

Is merely relative to how much waste is found in society.

 

In the past year checking just a couple dumpsters a week has yielded gallons of orange juice (we froze and lasted 2 months), huge block of chocolate, endless supply of apples and expensive packaged hummus, all kinds of cheese, random creative fruit juices that didn't sell, butter, organic veggies, tofu, etc, etc.

 

It may be a different paradigm for many. We can afford buying groceries. But is rather odd to let so much good food go to waste. Determining the true from the false is a matter of refinement.

 

Attacking what is false is the only way to keep the truth. And it's not a philosophy, it's a practical requirement for the inner work. 

 

"Lao Zi with a sword dispels cheaters and tricksters":

 

Sounds like the fire phase being exalted above the water phase. Don't the texts tend to emphasize the water phase?

 

Certainly fire is important, when used with a furnace and cauldron. But if one is just attacking things in the world, like jumping up and down on a bottle of glass, it is easy to just create more shapings to the false while the true remains just as hidden.

[opendao]

Actually, great food can be found in garbage bins.

 

it's your choice what to eat. But understanding it brings very little:

 

Sounds like the fire phase being exalted above the water phase. Don't the texts tend to emphasize the water phase?

Certainly fire is important, when used with a furnace and cauldron. But if one is just attacking things in the world, like jumping up and down on a bottle of glass, it is easy to just create more shapings to the false while the true remains just as hidden.

 

[Bindi]

Actually, great food can be found in garbage bins.

Is merely relative to how much waste is found in society.

 

In the past year checking just a couple dumpsters a week has yielded gallons of orange juice (we froze and lasted 2 months), huge block of chocolate, endless supply of apples and expensive packaged hummus, all kinds of cheese, random creative fruit juices that didn't sell, butter, organic veggies, tofu, etc, etc.

 

It may be a different paradigm for many. We can afford buying groceries. But is rather odd to let so much good food go to waste. Determining the true from the false is a matter of refinement.

 

 

Sounds like the fire phase being exalted above the water phase. Don't the texts tend to emphasize the water phase?

 

Certainly fire is important, when used with a furnace and cauldron. But if one is just attacking things in the world, like jumping up and down on a bottle of glass, it is easy to just create more shapings to the false while the true remains just as hidden.

 

Daeluin, can you elaborate a little on the fire phase and the water phase? I come at it from a different method, but I have found that concentrating only on water, the fire seems to naturally arise at the appropriate times, there appears to be no need to concentrate on fire at all.

[Slim]

Done. I changed the wording on the website to "head of the Laoshan Dragon Gate Tradition" (It's what I had originally but my website guy keep telling me "less words!"). I should have realized how it would come across to others, so thanks again for the feedback. 

[Taoist Texts]

 "Taoist Master Wang Liping, head of the Dragon Gate Tradition." Deeper in your page, we see the claim, "Wang Liping was chosen by three masters of the Dragon Gate Tradition to become the 18th heir and holder of the lineage."

 

Your biography says you are fluent in Chinese, so how do you not realize that there is no "head of the Dragon Gate Tradition"? There is no Dragon Gate "pope," most certainly not a layman-pope,  

 

Walker , would you care to explain what this list is and who are all these people? Thanks;)

 

 

历任宗师

• 第一代 赵道坚
• 第二代 张德纯
• 第三代 陈通微
• 第四代 周玄朴
• 第五代分张静定和沈静圆两支传播
  • 张静定 沈静圆
  • 赵真嵩 卫真定
  • 王常月 沈常敬

[Daeluin]

Daeluin, can you elaborate a little on the fire phase and the water phase? I come at it from a different method, but I have found that concentrating only on water, the fire seems to naturally arise at the appropriate times, there appears to be no need to concentrate on fire at all.

 

Oh gosh, I'm still studying all of this. There are so many angles to ponder. Fire is certainly important for many reasons, especially related to alchemy. I don't presume to understand what is needed there, but it is fun to explore the game of elemental forces numerology.

 

Earlier today I was reading Douglas White's translation and commentary on the Xici Zhuan (a commentary on the Yi Jing), particularly chapter 1.09.01 on the Ho Map diagram and numbers of creation and completion. White's commentary helps reach some of the depth in the symbolism behind the numbers 1-5, 6-10, which are the root of qi theory, wuji, taiji, the five phases, eight trigrams, and so on.

 

With their five phase assignments 1,6 are water, 2,7 fire, 3,8 wood, 4,9 metal, and 5,10 are earth. 1-5 are related to creation and perhaps celestial, 5-10 are related to completion and perhaps material. White says the common cycle within the physical is 7-9-8-6-7. These are also the numbers used to determine lines in an yijing divination. The yang numbers of creation add up 1+3+5 to 9, which indicates an old yang line. Having reached it's maximum, yang changes to yin. The yin numbers of creation add up 2+4 to 6, which indicates an old yin line. Having reached its maximum, yin changes to yang. The numbers 7 and 8 are in between and represent stable forces. So 7-9-8-6-7 - yang becoming old and changing to yin and becoming old and changing to yang - the yin-yang symbol. The metaphysical calendar monitors the ebb and flow of these energetic numerics to track time. Some of the alchemical texts speak in terms of these numbers and their functions within, such as:

 

Cantong Qi tl Pregadio:

 

 

"Qian ☰ is movement and is straight":

Breath spreads and Essence flows.

"Kun ☷ is quiescence and is gathered":

it is the hut of the Dao.

 

The firm gives forth and then recedes,

the yielding transmutes and thereby nurtures.

The 9 reverts, the 7 returns,

the 8 goes back, the 6 remains.

 

Man is white, woman is red;

Metal and Fire seize one another.

Water then stabilizes Fire:

It is the first of the Five Agents.

 

"Superior goodness is like water"

because it is flawless and clear.

These are the forms and images of the Dao,

but True Unity can hardly be charted:

it alters itself and distributes by parting,

and each part dwells alone, on its own.

 

 

or...

 

"Know the white, keep to the black,"

and the Numinous Light will come of its own.

 

White is the essence of Metal.

Black is the foundation of Water.

Water is the axis of the Dao:

its number is 1.

 

At the beginning of Yin and Yang,

Mystery holds the Yellow Sprout;

it is the ruler of the five metals,

the River Chariot of the northern direction.

 

That is why lead is black on the outside

but cherishes the Golden Flower within,

like the "man who wears rough-hewn clothes but cherishes a piece of jade in his bosom,"

and outwardly behaves like a fool.

 

 

The "Numinous Light" mentioned sounds like the "mandala" mentioned here.  The filling up the lower, middle and upper dan tiens to replenish one's foundation as a prerequisite stage in neidan seems to go along with what you describe. Things happen when one gives them a foundation to operate within. When things are forced they don't maintain because they aren't part of a natural foundation.

 

You're probably further along than I could hope to explain for you. The five phases operate on several layers, and it is not easy to understand. There are the numerics of creation and completion, and the implication of the ordering of the phases numerically and within cosmology. Then the implications of the trigrams and their xiantian / houtian arrangements based on the Ho Map and Lo Map diagrams. I get that Water is an origin of sorts. And yet without Fire it cannot be properly prepared and can freeze up and stagnate. Fire heats and warms, but also creates polarity that damages the water's wholeness / integrity if one is not careful to use the right amount. (Fire burning and creating Earth. Earth is the center so fire can manipulate the center, one's equilibrium, if it is not properly managed. Further Earth controls Water, so if the integrity of Earth is not maintained, it poorly influences the purity of the water, which further undermines the ability of the Fire to burn clearly and stably.)

[Walker]

Nathan, I appreciate your sincere and interesting responses to the questions I raised, and also am grateful that you did not see it as an "attack," which it was not meant to be. Since you've clarified the Mt. Lao connection, I'm curious how, if at all, did the abbot of several temples on Laoshan during the last century, 匡常修, relate to the line of transmission which Wang inherited?

 

This is the first time I've heard that Genghis Khan's orders made all Daoists Dragon Gate, de jure. Where can I read more about this change?

 

Opendao, no need to thank; believe me, I find the fellow's antics tiresome, too. Is Taoist Texts the same person as ChiDragon?

Edited February 24, 2016 by Walker

[Slim]

Walker, thanks, I sensed you were airing a more general frustration and didn’t take it personally. 

 

Kuang Changxiu’s short essay Xiantian qigong is a fun read. It’s been on my coffee table for the last couple months. It’s a great little neidan how-to manual, and one of the few counter examples to the notion that neidan can’t be learnt from books. I wonder if anyone has had success with it. 

 

In answer to your question about Kuang Changxiu’s relationship with Wang Liping’s lineage, I don’t know. I doubt there is a connection in terms of lineage. Wang often mentions that his lineage is separate from the temple lineages. The people in Wang’s lineage have not “left their families” to become priests or monks. He has lots of admiration for people who have chosen that path, its just not what his lineage does. Also the Mt. Lao connection with Wang Liping’s lineage dates back to the 16th century. Although Wang and his teachers still maintain a physical connection with Mt. Lao, they don’t seem connected with the temple lineages of the place. But again I don’t know. Anyone else know?

 

I first came across the story of Genghis making all Taoists Dragon Gate in the text Quanzhen qi zi zhuanji. Wang Liping also told the same story, as an explanation for the various Dragon Gate lineages. But I can’t think of a solid historical source. Historian’s do agree that Genghis Khan put Qiu Chuji in charge of Taoism (see Mote’s Imperial China), and that many Taoists came to him to be initiated/ordained. But how many and to what extent I’m not sure. Also it might simply have been under Quanzhen and not Longmen (Monica Esposito gets into this stuff). Now you have me thinking, maybe dragon gate didn’t really start getting traction until the beginning of the Qing with Wang Changyue. I wish I knew my history better. The irony is the advisor for my MA was a specialist on late Song and Yuan Taoism and neidan. 

[Taoist Texts]

Historically there was a direct line of succession in Longmen with the head of it for each generation as follows:

历任宗师

• 第一代 赵道坚
• 第二代 张德纯
• 第三代 陈通微
• 第四代 周玄朴
• 第五代分张静定和沈静圆两支传播
  • 张静定 沈静圆
  • 赵真嵩 卫真定
  • 王常月 沈常敬

To say that Longmen has no concept of the "head of the Dragon Gate Tradition" is quite untrue historically. Thats what 宗师 is.

[Taoist Texts]

"Lao Zi with a sword dispels cheaters and tricksters":

"An angry maniac with a shiv tries to stab Lao-zi"

 

Look at that poor old Lao-zi running for his life. Run, Lao-zi! Run like the wind!

[opendao]

 Also the Mt. Lao connection with Wang Liping’s lineage dates back to the 16th century. Although Wang and his teachers still maintain a physical connection with Mt. Lao, they don’t seem connected with the temple lineages of the place. But again I don’t know. Anyone else know?

 

Nathan, I like your open approach, so I'd like to say a few words, maybe it'll help you or others.

 

Current Patriarch of Longmen doesn't know. The situation is that Wang can't prove his lineage, while abbots from Laoshan, other Longmen teachers and Chinese Taoist association cannot prove that he has no lineage, because so far nobody could recall any proves or facts. So the situation is open to many speculations... And I doubt anything will change soon comparing to what we've known 15 years ago. Obviously, there are a lot of lay groups of Longmen Pai followers, who have no relation to the official patriarch lineage, so Walker is correct that there is no "layman pope".

 

But honestly the question about Wang Liping's lineage is not very important. What's important to understand, if his methods have relations to Longmen Pai cultivation or not. Walker had a wish to tell something, I think it could be interesting to know for all Wang's followers.

 

I first came across the story of Genghis making all Taoists Dragon Gate in the text Quanzhen qi zi zhuanji. Wang Liping also told the same story, as an explanation for the various Dragon Gate lineages. But I can’t think of a solid historical source. Historian’s do agree that Genghis Khan put Qiu Chuji in charge of Taoism (see Mote’s Imperial China), and that many Taoists came to him to be initiated/ordained. But how many and to what extent I’m not sure. Also it might simply have been under Quanzhen and not Longmen (Monica Esposito gets into this stuff). Now you have me thinking, maybe dragon gate didn’t really start getting traction until the beginning of the Qing with Wang Changyue. I wish I knew my history better. The irony is the advisor for my MA was a specialist on late Song and Yuan Taoism and neidan. 

 

Longmenpai's history is presented very strange in English books. Even in Monica Esposito's researches. For now I'd like to highlight one thing: both Qiu Chuji and Wang Changyue were very high level practitioners of Neidan, that's why they got a political power to promote the teaching and make enormous changes. Not in reverse order, as it's usually presented: like Qiu has visited Genghis that's why Quanzhen Dao received power. Just to recall: it was Genghis who asked for advice (personal advice by the way). And after that visit many interesting changes had happened. Wang Changyue's role is almost unknown in the West at all.

 

Interesting, that Wang Changyue was a teacher of Wu Chongxu, the founder of Wu-Liu Pai, and our school keeps connections with many Longmenpai's practitioners and "religious" leaders, in spite of the fact that Wu-Liu is not a religious school at all.

 

I need also to say that differentiation of Daoism into temple and lay lineages has no big sense: Neidan master and teacher can be in any of them, and very often in both of them at the same time.

Edited February 25, 2016 by opendao

[Taoist Texts]

Kuang Changxiu’s short essay Xiantian qigong is a fun read. It’s been on my coffee table for the last couple months. It’s a great little neidan how-to manual, and one of the few counter examples to the notion that neidan can’t be learnt from books. 

 

Absolutely.

 

 

Liu Huayang, the founder of the neidan as we know it, says that neidan can and should be learned from his book.

 

 

 

I compiled this book, whose title is the Huiming Jing. ... Now, by means of simple, straightforward language,  I will pass on the Treasure of the Buddha, offering it as if on a tray to enable followers in the world [to practise its  teachings].

 

As you examine the Huiming Jing it is indeed the same as if I were telling it to you with my own mouth. 

 

It is only necessary to rouse your will and dedicate all your energy—you need not go to some other mountain to seek further help—and you will be able to establish and manifest the Buddha Fruit.

 

Introduction transmitted in the summer of the year jiayin of in the reign of

the emperor Qianlong, at Hukou, by Liu Huayang of Mount Lu,

[written down] at the Temple of Dedication and Purity in Wancheng

 

/Nicholson/

 

[opendao]

"An angry maniac with a shiv tries to stab Lao-zi"

 

Look at that poor old Lao-zi running for his life. Run, Lao-zi! Run like the wind!

 

that's all hobo learnt from books...

 

Absolutely.

Liu Huayang, the founder of the neidan as we know it,

 

"as we, profane people, know it" would be more correctly to say

 

says that neidan can and should be learned from his book.

 

All such ridiculous attempts to prove that Dao can be accomplished based on books raise only one reaction: "if you're so clever, where is your Dao?". So far nothing even close. Go and practice then, don't fool other people by your false views if you got nothing...

 

To quote Liu Huayang is even more funny: they can't compare dates of writing and dates of publishing, don't understand who the book was addressed to, but pretend to understand the Dao from books they don't even bother to read carefully. What an irony, really.     

 

Liu Huayang did criticize such talkative charlatans a lot: "But some foolishly take a single saying or half sentence to be the Tao! And from eons ago until now, they have all been the blind leading the blind, ensnaring immeasurable numbers of believers deep into the Nine Springs of Hell, where in the end they cannot lift their heads to see the Buddha's radiance." (same translation)

[Walker]

Opendao, sometime in the next week or two I'll try and find the time to start a thread comparing a few important sections of the English and Chinese versions of that text, so that readers here can decide for themselves.

 

Nathan, again, I enjoyed reading your response. The history surrounding Ancestor Qiu's meeting with Genghis Khan is fascinating to me--hopefully later I'll get around to learning more about this event and its ramifications.

 

Thanks for clarifying some things about Master Wang's connection to Laoshan. In light of everything you've shared, it seems like the most accurate thing one could confidently say about Wang is that he is the head of a Laoshan Daoist tradition, not the tradition. There is the added complication that the idea of "Dragon Gate tradition" is fuzzy. I've never heard people talk about the "龙门传统" in China. The term seems like a new invention that's been made in order to facilitate making a bold claim that doesn't really stand on it's own two feet. And if you must use this term, you still can't account for the fact that most Laoshan monks and nuns who obviously fit under its broad umbrella probably wouldn't agree with the idea that Wang is its head/头/首.

 

Now, I get what you mean about the conundrum of not trying to sound too academic or use too many words describing your teacher's background. If I were making such a page, I think I would make the simplest, safest statement I could. Not necessarily the shortest statement, but the one with the least possibility of causing confusion and any possible resulting 麻烦 for myself, my teacher, and any other cultivators.

 

The tendency I've seen exemplified by the living Daoists I know is one of erring on the side of understatement and conservativism. There's plenty of precedent for this type of cautiousness in the Daodejing, too: "慎终如始，则无败事" and the rest of chapter 64; "不敢为天下先"; lots of etcs. Some of Ancestor Lv's ten tests with Zhongli Quan are yet another place where we see the ancients erring deep on the side of caution. Outside of Daoism, we see traditional Chinese culture as a whole littered with such thinking--慎身修永; 病从口入祸从口出; 出来混, 迟早得还... plus endless other examples. Don't wanna end up 背ing any more 业 than we have to, right? 天网恢恢，疏而不漏... 多一事不如少一事!

 

Anyway, I doubt any good will come of yet more words, so I will try to cease my harping... 保重 

[Taoist Texts]

It's hard enough to find someone that teaches proper Neidan as it is today, if we end up having lot's of unserious teachers will finding a serious teacher become even harder?

 

The western neidan is a  cottage industry driven by two factors: availability of western 'teachers' and the greed of the seminar goers for health and longevity.

 

There are no big barriers to entry to become a neidan teacher, that is, a teacher of rejuvenation, health and immortality . The qualifications needed are less than those for a used car salesman. 

 

All you need to do is to memorize some verbiage and not be dead yet. Oh, yeah, also a website is a must.

 

Western Neidan= teachers+health/longevity. That's the formula.

 

But you see,  it turns out that for 200 years already Liu Huayang was saying that no teacher is necessary or even desirable, while  王常月 Wang Changyue  (?-1680)  

 

especially objected to refining the Material Essence and Vital Breath to get rid of one's illness and prolong bodily life,

 

So the true neidan has no need of a teacher, and does not provide neither health nor longevity.

 

Ooops!

 

Therefore,  i would say the wester neidan, which is a health fad, is not on the rise anymore. When these 2 truths come out, the fad will pass soon.

[Daeluin]

Hmmm.... what isn't a fad? The path to the changeless changes with every moment.

 

Certainly there is no absolute need for a teacher. Anything is possible. Even though we must learn everything for ourselves - even when we learn from teachers - it is foolish to think that anything is self-taught.

 

Caution sounds wise. Can always change the words, but hard to change what has been seen. What is on the surface doesn't matter as much as what is happening within. Adjust the outer nozzles as inner change is desired. Set intention and let the energy do the work.

[Wu Ming Jen]

Please be aware that wudang internal alchemy is taught only to those who meet the requirements of that practice and are destined to receive this teachings. In times when everyone trying to sell this knowledge as product for their own benefit, many advertisements about internal alchemy courses had appear on the internet. In fact the content of those courses usually covers only the longevity and basic Qigong training erroneously called internal alchemy, and have nothing to do with neidan life and death solving methods. Please be aware that wudang internal alchemy preparation and practice cannot be taught within one or two weeks it requires years of  training under the guidance of accomplished master.

 

 The first step is the foundation, physical practice this continues throughout training the three stages. The last stage associated with the saying 9 years to complete means a very long time. 

[opendao]

But you see,  it turns out that for 200 years already Liu Huayang was saying that no teacher is necessary or even desirable

 

fallacy

 

, while  王常月 Wang Changyue  (?-1680)  

 

especially objected to refining the Material Essence and Vital Breath to get rid of one's illness and prolong bodily life,

 

fallacy

 

So the true neidan has no need of a teacher, and does not provide neither health nor longevity.

 

fallacy

 

Ooops!

 

Therefore,  i would say the wester neidan, which is a health fad, is not on the rise anymore. When these 2 truths come out, the fad will pass soon.

 

I think you'll pass quicker with your pseudo-alchemy, forged out of mistranslations and fallacies, where even health is impossible.

 

But it's a good trend: every year it's harder and harder for charlatans to prove their methods. How to prove health, if they are sick? How to speak about Dao, if Lao Zi told it's about immortality, but "grandmaster X" has died soon? We live in a very interesting time, when truth comes up quicker then tricksters hope. So we see their hysterical attempts to brainwash people that Neidan is not about health, not about immortality, not about highest possible realization, but about something that nobody can check.

[Slim]

I took out the phrase, “head of Mt. Lao Dragon Gate Tradition” all together from the website. I also changed “Master” to “teacher.” It now reads: “In 2015 Taoist teacher Wang Liping provided…” It’s cleaner and clearer, and also truer to how Wang Liping presents himself. I like it. It's a definite improvement.  

 

Wang Liping is quite uncomfortable being seen as a master. With Thomas Cleary’s translation of Opening the Dragon Gate: The Making of a Modern Taoist Wizard, “wizard” was used instead of “master” because of this. Wang Liping once mentioned that in the old days even the term daoshi was used sparingly. Apparently to be considered a daoshi one has to fully inhabit one’s yuanshen at all times, no easy task.  

 

I will rewrite Wang Liping’s bio on the website as well. I’ve decided to introduce him the way he introduces himself. He said it’s traditional protocol to intro three previous generations when a Taoist introduces one's lineage. So I will focus on himself and his teachers and steer clear of broad claims. 

 

FYI, If anyone is interested below is an example of how Wang Liping introduces himself to new students. This was taken from a first retreat with new students several years back:

 

这次到新加坡给大家讲道教龙门派丹道的一个功夫，和大家互相讨论一下。

I’m not really here to teach you all, but I’m here to, sort of, share my experiences with you about the Taoist Longmen lineage and its practice. 

非常感谢大家能够在百忙之中参加我们这个小的班。

I’m grateful to everyone for taking time off to sign up for this small workshop. 

大家工作都很忙。我们这次大家可能在一起生活十天左右

Everyone’s very busy. We’ll be together for 10 days for this retreat. 

我们会很辛苦。

It’ll be quite tough and challenging. 

因为我说话已经比较随便了，可能说话不大注意，做事不好的，大家可以给我指正一下。

If there’s anything Master Wang says or does that is not appropriate, please excuse him and he welcomes feedback from everyone. 

没讲前呢，我先介绍一下自己。因为第一次新加坡，都是这样到一个地方先介绍一下。我叫王力平，道号叫永生（法号“灵灵子”，字孤独）。

I’ll first introduce myself. My name is Wang Li Ping. His Taoist name is Yong Shen. 

一般道教都报三代师承。

First, he wants to introduce the three lineage before himself as that’s the traditional protocol. 

师爷叫张合道（十六代传人无极道人）

The master’s grandmaster is called Zhang He Dao. 

他是清朝末年的一个道士，他做过清朝宫内的医生。 

He is the master’s grandmaster. He came from the end of the Qing dynasty and he used to work in the emperor’s court. He’s a physician, the emperor’s physician. 

太医是世传的，爷爷爸爸这么世传的。

It’s within a household, basically, within the same family. It’s from generation to generation.

有两个师傅，一个叫王教明（“松灵子”清静道人），一个叫贾教义（十七代传人“阴灵子”清虚道人），

Master Wang has 2 masters; Wang Jiao Ming and Jia Jiao Yi.  

这两个师傅传到我这是三代

So there are three generations from his masters down to Master Wang.

[Slim]

PS here is a link to a translation of Qing Xitai's book chapter Longmen pai. It details the Longmen Lineage through the Qing. 

Translation by Fabrizio Pregadio. 

 

http://www.goldenelixir.com/files/Longmen_Lineage.pdf