Waidan and early neidan vs later neidan

[d4rr3n]

The practice of external Alchemy (waidan) is oldest. The waidan practitioner takes the ingredients seals them in a crucible, fires it and when the process is complete he crapes the elixir off the lid. Taking this powder he makes pills with it.

 

So in other words the waidan practitioner starts with physical ingredients and ends with a physical elixir. Waidan never exits the physical level. Alchemy therefore as it was originally understood was a physical art. An alchemist would have been very disappointed if his ingredients were transmuted into qi and went up in smoke as there would be nothing for him to gather upon opening the crucible.

 

Early neidan practitioners were the same, they wanted to make the Jindan. When the Jindan was formed there life was prolonged, sickness was cured and they gained occult powers such as being able to see and communicate with the gods.

 

The idea of refining jing to qi, qi to shen and shen to tao is a later development and is not even neidan but Taoist yoga.

 

Neidan (internal elixir) starts with ingredients and ends with the production of the jindan. It is like waidan it starts on the physical level and ends on the physical level, it is alchemy.

 

Converting jing to qi etc is not neidan or waidan, it is not alchemy but Taoist yoga its goal is not the same.

 

 

 

 

[opendao]

The practice of external Alchemy (waidan) is oldest. The waidan practitioner takes the ingredients seals them in a crucible, fires it and when the process is complete he crapes the elixir off the lid. Taking this powder he makes pills with it.

 

So in other words the waidan practitioner starts with physical ingredients and ends with a physical elixir. Waidan never exits the physical level. Alchemy therefore as it was originally understood was a physical art. An alchemist would have been very disappointed if his ingredients were transmuted into qi and went up in smoke as there would be nothing for him to gather upon opening the crucible.

 

Early neidan practitioners were the same, they wanted to make the Jindan. When the Jindan was formed there life was prolonged, sickness was cured and they gained occult powers such as being able to see and communicate with the gods.

 

The idea of refining jing to qi, qi to shen and shen to tao is a later development and is not even neidan but Taoist yoga.

 

Neidan (internal elixir) starts with ingredients and ends with the production of the jindan. It is like waidan it starts on the physical level and ends on the physical level, it is alchemy.

 

Internal single cultivation is the most ancient one and has the highest status because of its results and virtue.

Neidan is a later term, and it used the language of Waidan to describe the same internal processes as before.

 

Scientists don't understand the practice, and don't see the succession between early Daoism (Huang Di - Lao Zi) and later Neidan cultivation.

 

Converting jing to qi etc is not neidan or waidan, it is not alchemy but Taoist yoga its goal is not the same.

 

Taoist Yoga is just a brand of Charles Luk. 

 

Neidan works jing-qi-shen, but it works with preheaven ingridients, not postheaven as TY and various other deviations.

[Aetherous]

Internal single cultivation is the most ancient one and has the highest status because of its results and virtue.

Neidan is a later term, and it used the language of Waidan to describe the same internal processes as before.

 

Scientists don't understand the practice, and don't see the succession between early Daoism (Huang Di - Lao Zi) and later Neidan cultivation.

 

Could you please share some sources that point to this being true?

[Taoist Texts]

The practice of external Alchemy (waidan) is oldest. The waidan practitioner takes the ingredients seals them in a crucible, fires it and when the process is complete he crapes the elixir off the lid. Taking this powder he makes pills with it.

 

 

 

Early neidan practitioners were the same

 

is that why they are a called a different name?

[Taoist Texts]

Could you please share some sources that point to this being true?

I think this thread is just for saying things, no stinking sources required.

Waidan is the oldest!

No neidan is the oldest!

Waidan!

Neidan!

 

 

hehe;)

[opendao]

Could you please share some sources that point to this being true?

 

Dao De Jing is the main source. Sima Qian is worth to read. Many Neidan texts explain the genesis of Daoism (Baopuzi, for example).

 

What are the key concepts of Lao Zi? Dao, De, Wuwei, Ziran, attaining Dao, becoming a sage-saint-immortal and so on. 

What are the key concepts of Neidan? Dao, De, Wuwei, Ziran, attaining Dao, becoming a sage-saint-immortal and so on.  

 

Neidan texts used the terminology of the external alchemy, like lead, mercury, tripod etc. But how do they explain it, what synonyms do they use, what is the goal of Neidan practice? It's the same as the classic Daoist texts, it's the same as what we know about pre-LaoZi era. 

 

Is it clear or do you need hundreds of quotes? I believe you're able to find them on your own. We're preparing an article, but it's becoming a book and it's taking a lot of time...

[Taoist Texts]

Dao De Jing is the main source.  

Yes especially the bit about the horse manure. That just have to be about neidan, what else?

 

天下有道，卻走馬以糞。天下無道，戎馬生於郊。禍莫大於不知足；咎莫大於欲得。故知足之足，常足矣。

 

When the Dao prevails in the world, they send back their swift horses to (draw) the dung- carts

[Aetherous]

Is it clear or do you need hundreds of quotes? I believe you're able to find them on your own. We're preparing an article, but it's becoming a book and it's taking a lot of time...

 

I look forward to the article...I am the type that would love hundreds of quotes! Pretty busy in my life and new at reading Chinese, so I'm not yet able to find them on my own.

[d4rr3n]

is that why they are a called a different name?

When I said they were the same what I meant is that the Jindan the naidan practitioner is trying to brew within himself is a physical thing just like the elixir the waidan practitioner is trying to make. The idea that either of them is trying to convert a physical thing into a non physical thing eg chi is incorrect.

[d4rr3n]

I think this thread is just for saying things, no stinking sources required.

Waidan is the oldest!

No neidan is the oldest!

Waidan!

Neidan!

 

 

hehe;)

If you even have basic, basic knowledge on Chinese alchemy or read any book on it the fact that waidan text are older then neidan text is well known to scholars.

[d4rr3n]

Dao De Jing is the main source. Sima Qian is worth to read. Many Neidan texts explain the genesis of Daoism (Baopuzi, for example).

 

What are the key concepts of Lao Zi? Dao, De, Wuwei, Ziran, attaining Dao, becoming a sage-saint-immortal and so on. 

What are the key concepts of Neidan? Dao, De, Wuwei, Ziran, attaining Dao, becoming a sage-saint-immortal and so on.  

"Empty yourself of everything.

Let the mind rest at peace.

The ten thousand things rise and fall while the Self watches their return.

They grow and flourish and then return to the source.

Returning to the source is stillness, which is the way of nature.

The way of nature is unchanging.

Knowing constancy is insight.

Not knowing constancy leads to disaster.

Knowing constancy, the mind is open.

With an open mind, you will be openhearted.

Being openhearted, you will act royally.

Being royal, you will attain the divine.

Being divine, you will be at one with the Tao.

Being at one with the Tao is eternal.

And though the body dies, the Tao will never pass away."

 

Above is what is meant to attain the Dao, notice it says "And though the body dies, the Tao will never pass away". The goal of attaining Dao and Alchemy are not the same. The Alchemists goal is to attain the medicine, the jindan, the Taoist wants to attain the emptiness of the dao...two different goals. One is the goal of alchemy the other is the goal of Taoist yoga/meditation.

[opendao]

"Empty yourself of everything.

Let the mind rest at peace.

The ten thousand things rise and fall while the Self watches their return.

They grow and flourish and then return to the source.

Returning to the source is stillness, which is the way of nature.

The way of nature is unchanging.

Knowing constancy is insight.

Not knowing constancy leads to disaster.

Knowing constancy, the mind is open.

With an open mind, you will be openhearted.

Being openhearted, you will act royally.

Being royal, you will attain the divine.

Being divine, you will be at one with the Tao.

Being at one with the Tao is eternal.

And though the body dies, the Tao will never pass away."

 

Above is what is meant to attain the Dao, notice it says "And though the body dies, the Tao will never pass away". The goal of attaining Dao and Alchemy are not the same. The Alchemists goal is to attain the medicine, the jindan, the Taoist wants to attain the emptiness of the dao...two different goals. One is the goal of alchemy the other is the goal of Taoist yoga/meditation.

 

The phrase describes the same result as what Neidan texts describe as tianxian.

 

Master of the Jindan tradition teach that early Daoism didn't imply that merging with Dao is equal to "destruction, dissolution into nothingness" as you wrote elsewhere.

 

And alive masters of the Jindan tradition (The School of Great Dao of the Golden Elixir of Wu Chongxu and Liu Hua Yang) teach that the last stage of the alchemy is called 练虚合道 - "melting of emptiness and unity to the Dao".

 

--------------------------------

Same about elixir as a "physical thing". 

You wrote: "The idea that either of them is trying to convert a physical thing into a non physical thing eg chi is incorrect."

 

It's incorrect, right. Neidan doesn't work with physical substances on any level.

 

You: "I meant is that the Jindan the naidan practitioner is trying to brew within himself is a physical thing just like the elixir the waidan practitioner is trying to make."

 

This is not correct. Jindan is not a physical thing, and its ingredients are not physical either, but exactly what you are trying to say is not Jindan: xiantian jing-qi-shen.

 

What Neidan texts you base your strange opinions on?

[d4rr3n]

The phrase describes the same result as what Neidan texts describe as tianxian.

 

Master of the Jindan tradition teach that early Daoism didn't imply that merging with Dao is equal to "destruction, dissolution into nothingness" as you wrote elsewhere.

 

And alive masters of the Jindan tradition (The School of Great Dao of the Golden Elixir of Wu Chongxu and Liu Hua Yang) teach that the last stage of the alchemy is called 练虚合道 - "melting of emptiness and unity to the Dao".

 

--------------------------------

Same about elixir as a "physical thing". 

You wrote: "The idea that either of them is trying to convert a physical thing into a non physical thing eg chi is incorrect."

 

It's incorrect, right. Neidan doesn't work with physical substances on any level.

 

You: "I meant is that the Jindan the naidan practitioner is trying to brew within himself is a physical thing just like the elixir the waidan practitioner is trying to make."

 

This is not correct. Jindan is not a physical thing, and its ingredients are not physical either, but exactly what you are trying to say is not Jindan: xiantian jing-qi-shen.

 

What Neidan texts you base your strange opinions on?

Jing is not a physical thing, I think you will find it is. Jing is the physical substance from which the neidan tradition proceeds.

[opendao]

Jing is not a physical thing, I think you will find it is. Jing is the physical substance from which the neidan tradition proceeds.

 

No. Jing used in Neidan is not a physical substance. And it is of the same kind as the Spirit-Shen and Dao at the end. 

 

If Jing is a physical substance, then it's affected by duality, corrupted, not pure, not a "treasure-Bao" and cannot be used in the alchemy at all.

 

Search for "false elixir" and "sexual Jing" to get the difference.

[leth]

Neidan as a term seems to be far younger than the term wai dan, but the practices are older than both terms, the term jindan dao however can be said to be contemporary with wai dan and is often said to be comparable to nei dan. Though the practices seems to be older than the terms as far as we know considering how there are archeological finds that seems to suggest techniques that could be categorised as internal alchemy or atleast a precursor to internal alchemy as we now know it.

Edited February 9, 2016 by leth