Gravity Waves

[Brian]

http://earthsky.org/space/have-scientists-discovered-gravitational-waves

[vonkrankenhaus]

"Gravity" as opposed to "Light" waves.

 

Gravity itself is YinYang.

 

They will not see that with any device or telescope.

 

None is needed.

 

The "waves" are the effect on surrounding, and not the actual "gravity".

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Famous quote from Hally's Comet:

 

"Gravity waves to me every time I fly by, its gravity's way of saying 'come on down and see me sometime.'"

[silent thunder]

Freakishly, Amazingly Awesome!

 

Love it.

[Karl]

At what cost was this information obtained ?

What will be the continuing costs ?

Who is paying ?

What use is this information at a time of global economic slowdown ?

 

Much though these things are exciting for the scientific community-like the search for the God particle-they appear to have no practical short term application except to create ever more requirement to fund more research.

 

I can't say it's useless because I have no idea, but it seems to me that the great discoveries have not required multi-million dollar research projects. Most are a result of necessity driving innovation, or financial gain driving innovation, or often by an inventor stuck in a garden shed that had an idea for a product.

 

I certainly don't wish to stop the scientific search, but I'm increasingly thinking these projects are similar to Stone Henge, or The pyramids. Research in search of nothing useful in particular, but impressive engineering at high cost.

 

No doubt I shall be in a minority as usual, the Luddite who can't see the importance of great discoveries, but the question needs asking-what the fuck use is a gravity wave produced by two black holes colliding ?

Edited February 12, 2016 by Karl

[Bearded Dragon]

The situation the world is in is too much like a moving wheel that can't be stopped. It can only be spun faster. Gotta keep digging the technology hole!

[Nikolai1]

 

No doubt I shall be in a minority as usual, the Luddite who can't see the importance of great discoveries, but the question needs asking-what the fuck use is a gravity wave produced by two black holes colliding ?

I'm with you on this Karl.  I simply don't trust this stuff.  I don't trust the intellectual calibre of those involved.  This hinterland between mathematical and material reality can only really be navigated by a special kind of individual, and I'm not this bunch of geeks can do it.  When I listen to Stephen Hawking speak, or I read his books, I often catch a whiff of insanity, or some kind of autism.

[Apech]

At what cost was this information obtained ?

What will be the continuing costs ?

Who is paying ?

What use is this information at a time of global economic slowdown ?

 

Much though these things are exciting for the scientific community-like the search for the God particle-they appear to have no practical short term application except to create ever more requirement to fund more research.

 

I can't say it's useless because I have no idea, but it seems to me that the great discoveries have not required multi-million dollar research projects. Most are a result of necessity driving innovation, or financial gain driving innovation, or often by an inventor stuck in a garden shed that had an idea for a product.

 

I certainly don't wish to stop the scientific search, but I'm increasingly thinking these projects are similar to Stone Henge, or The pyramids. Research in search of nothing useful in particular, but impressive engineering at high cost.

 

No doubt I shall be in a minority as usual, the Luddite who can't see the importance of great discoveries, but the question needs asking-what the fuck use is a gravity wave produced by two black holes colliding ?

 

“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.”

 

I'm almost speechless at this dismal shoe gazing by both Karl and Nickolai.  I would argue that it is essential to the well being of mankind that we gain greater and greater understanding of the universe.  I think this experiment is a useful step towards confirming our best theories about the nature of space/time.  Odd that people communicating over the internet via computers cannot understand this - perhaps you should return to scratching on slates.

[Marblehead]

Gravitational waves of space.  Not much different from the sound waves here on Earth.  Same process, I think.

 

Sure, that knowledge has little use right now.  But what about in the future?

 

The question was asked.  The answer needed to be found.  And it was found.  Albert was right again.

 

Will the knowledge effect my life?  I doubt it.

[Karl]

“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.”

 

I'm almost speechless at this dismal shoe gazing by both Karl and Nickolai.  I would argue that it is essential to the well being of mankind that we gain greater and greater understanding of the universe.  I think this experiment is a useful step towards confirming our best theories about the nature of space/time.  Odd that people communicating over the internet via computers cannot understand this - perhaps you should return to scratching on slates.

 

Different argument Apech.

Its about who is paying for it, not that it may or may not be a good thing.

 

I'm sure that the ancient Brits, Greeks, Egyptians and Romans all felt somewhat similar about using their people to build incredible structures by which they might fathom the mysteries of man and the universe. Most of those structures are now mausoleums to civilisations that ignored economic reality and poured effort into those grandiose projects which did not provide the answers that were being looked for. Instead, those civilisations died out.

 

 

[Marblehead]

Hey Karl!  Your altruism is showing.

[Apech]

Different argument Apech. Its about who is paying for it, not that it may or may not be a good thing. I'm sure that the ancient Brits, Greeks, Egyptians and Romans all felt somewhat similar about using their people to build incredible structures by which they might fathom the mysteries of man and the universe. Most of those structures are now mausoleums to civilisations that ignored economic reality and poured effort into those grandiose projects which did not provide the answers that were being looked for. Instead, those civilisations died out.

 

 

Well as regards the Egyptians they lasted another nearly 3000 years of intact culture (till the Christians spoiled it).  Stonehenge site was in use from mesolithic to the early centuries AD.  So some success there.  But yes, I am sure there guys like you grumbling away through all that time

[Karl]

Hey Karl!  Your altruism is showing.

 

Altruism ? No, but my capitalism certainly is.

 

I don't know why the tax payer is footing a billion dollar plus bill plus the ongoing costs of staff and maintenance for a project that appears to me to have zero commercial value. It's looks like a combination of vanity project and a group of scientists grabbing a salary at the expense of everyone else who has to work for a living to produce things that other people want.

 

 

[Karl]

Well as regards the Egyptians they lasted another nearly 3000 years of intact culture (till the Christians spoiled it).  Stonehenge site was in use from mesolithic to the early centuries AD.  So some success there.  But yes, I am sure there guys like you grumbling away through all that time

 

What you refer to as grumbling is my outrage at money being stolen to finance hobbyists.

 

I don't mind them stumping up the money themselves or getting private backing, but not tax payers, many of whom are struggling to put food on the table, cloth their children or pay for a retirement home. What use is a gravity wave to those people who have contributed to the project ?

[Marblehead]

Altruism ? No, but my capitalism certainly is. I don't know why the tax payer is footing a billion dollar plus bill plus the ongoing costs of staff and maintenance for a project that appears to me to have zero commercial value. It's looks like a combination of vanity project and a group of scientists grabbing a salary at the expense of everyone else who has to work for a living to produce things that other people want.

I can't disagree with you.  No, it's actually more at I agree with you.

 

However, it has been this way forever and will likely remain this way forever.

 

What we think and say has no effect on how the wealthy and powerful are going to behave.

[Karl]

I can't disagree with you.  No, it's actually more at I agree with you.

 

However, it has been this way forever and will likely remain this way forever.

 

What we think and say has no effect on how the wealthy and powerful are going to behave.

 

It would be a start if we weren't all oohing and ahhhing at the Kings new clothes, that he bought with our money.

We could stop agreeing with Gubermint spending on research that doesn't actually improve lives. I would stop it all together as its been proven to be ineffective in numerous studies as its back to front. The useful stuff comes out of purely private finance and Gubermint spending actually crowds out development and innovation.

 

Come the revolution brother.

[Michael Sternbach]

I am of two minds in this question. Not so much because I am worried about the immense sums being spent. Could that money be used more meaningfully? Possibly. Could it be spent more stupidly? Most definitely!!! Examples for that abound, but I would find it too tedious to elaborate on this right now. That said, I agree with Nikolai that a lot of modern cosmology falls short regarding the deeper questions. Such as: How does the world soul create and act in the cosmos? How are we connected to the cosmos? What is our place in it? What is humanity's mission? These are metaphysical questions. A materialist may laugh about them. Contemporary science is materialistic overall. It is studying its subject as a lifeless and soulless thing. Yet its findings can sometimes be interpreted in meaningful ways. Yes, it is of value to understand if and to what degree Einstein's theories hold true. And gravitational telescopes may open new windows to the universe, such as optical telescopes and radio-telescopes (etc) did before. Even though they won't replace the insights that can be gained by intuition and meditation alone. For instance, Giordano Bruno in the 16th century had visions of an immense cosmos full with suns and planets carrying life - at a time when fixed stars were still considered to be the holes in a perforated crystal sphere. And he never had an opportunity to look even through the kind of telescope that is nowadays given to kids on their birthday.

[Taoist Texts]

“Liberals, it has been said, are generous with other peoples' money, except when it comes to questions of national survival when they prefer to be generous with other peoples' freedom and security.” 
― William F. Buckley Jr.

[Marblehead]

It would be a start if we weren't all oohing and ahhhing at the Kings new clothes, that he bought with our money. We could stop agreeing with Gubermint spending on research that doesn't actually improve lives. I would stop it all together as its been proven to be ineffective in numerous studies as its back to front. The useful stuff comes out of purely private finance and Gubermint spending actually crowds out development and innovation. Come the revolution brother.

Again I won't disagree with you.  But you are talking about not liking reality and want for something better.  It ain't gonna' happen.

 

Even if you gave a million dollars to every wasteful and stupid person on the planet it wouldn't be long before they were back in the hole they were in when you gave them the money.  That's what stupid and wasteful people do.

 

Sure, feed the hungry.  That helps for only one meal.  Better to give them the means to feed themselves.  But then, it wouldn't be long before they sell their means for a quick fix and right back into the hole they go.

 

No, we can't change the nature of the animal.  Put a tiger in a cage but it is still a tiger.

 

So we help when we can and let the rest of it go.  We cannot stop the natural processes.

[Apech]

I am of two minds in this question. Not so much because I am worried about the immense sums being spent. Could that money be used more meaningfully? Possibly. Could it be spent more stupidly? Most definitely!!! Examples for that abound, but I would find it too tedious to elaborate on this right now. That said, I agree with Nikolai that a lot of modern cosmology falls short regarding the deeper questions. Such as: How does the world soul create and act in the cosmos? How are we connected to the cosmos? What is our place in it? What is humanity's mission? These are metaphysical questions. A materialist may laugh about them. Contemporary science is materialistic overall. It is studying its subject as a lifeless and soulless thing. Yet its findings can sometimes be interpreted in meaningful ways. Yes, it is of value to understand if and to what degree Einstein's theories hold true. And gravitational telescopes may open new windows to the universe, such as optical telescopes and radio-telescopes (etc) did before. Even though they won't replace the insights that can be gained by intuition and meditation alone. For instance, Giordano Bruno in the 16th century had visions of an immense cosmos full with suns and planets carrying life - at a time when fixed stars were still considered to be the holes in a perforated crystal sphere. And he never had an opportunity to look even through the kind of telescope that is nowadays given to kids on their birthday.

 

 

I completely agree that science operates within a set paradigm of the sole reality being a physical objective universe.  However the cutting edge of this same science can challenge even that view.  I think in a way that is why this type of experimental confirmation is part of a general need for self discovery.  It was not that long ago that Einstein's General Relativity was hugely controversial - but is now becoming (or is) part of the standard model.

[thelerner]

My view.. it may not be readily apparent but like art, science is important to our well being.  It improves our lives and inspires us.  If some small part of the treasury is used for it, I'm okay with that. 

 

This kind of research goes way beyond the discovery.  There is the inspiration to a whole generation to keep finding out the truths of the universe.   There is hardware, software.. tech and procedures created by these groups that will go on to find applications in other places.  The scientists and specialists will go on to work in other fields, answering other questions and designing new things.    

 

As a practical matter, if a country want to keep its edge technologically (or culturally) it'd better throw some ducats in the science and engineering fields (& fine arts).  Encourage new generations to look for solutions and do the hard work to understand the world.  I'm not against big corporations but if they find something they may or may not share it. 

 

A robust world of public scientists, who share and cross pollinate concepts, ideas and hardware that will revolutionize the world.  Improve all our lives, ultimately. 

 

 

addon> There's also a little bit of species self preservation involved.  The Universe can be a cold, harsh place that doesn't care about us.  The more we know it's rules, it's make up, it's possible dangers, the safer we'll be.  Black holes colliding sound like a pretty dangerous thing.  Might be worthwhile learning a little about them.  Can't do much now, but maybe in the far future we can either get out of the way or learn to surf. 

Edited February 12, 2016 by thelerner

[dwai]

Gravity waves can allow us to use it at minimal cost of our own energy to do things. This phenomenon is not just active for extremely large masses, but all around, always.

 

My teacher often tells us to work with gravity, become sensitive to and learn to use gravity energy (he calls it energy) instead of burning through our own internal power.

 

He also refers to this as "surface energy". And he is being literal not allegorical when he says this. And not just say, he can demonstrate how this works at will. We can feel the effect.

 

I know most people who pride themselves on a being "rationalists" will scoff and roll their eyes. But fact is I too have encountered this, though for me it was only a fleeting moment. To experience it involves a very refined level of internal cultivation.

[Karl]

Again I won't disagree with you.  But you are talking about not liking reality and want for something better.  It ain't gonna' happen.

 

Even if you gave a million dollars to every wasteful and stupid person on the planet it wouldn't be long before they were back in the hole they were in when you gave them the money.  That's what stupid and wasteful people do.

 

Sure, feed the hungry.  That helps for only one meal.  Better to give them the means to feed themselves.  But then, it wouldn't be long before they sell their means for a quick fix and right back into the hole they go.

 

No, we can't change the nature of the animal.  Put a tiger in a cage but it is still a tiger.

 

So we help when we can and let the rest of it go.  We cannot stop the natural processes.

 

It's not an absolute reality. We don't have to pay for someone to attend his hobby.

 

Im not suggesting we use the money in another way that some lobby group to other tells us is valuable. It's just another example of where the state should not be intervening.

 

The First World War seemed like the perfect created excuse for social engineers to introduce greater and greater levels of state intervention. The war effort seemed to people to be such an apparent miracle of organised success that the state was the perfect mechanism for that success to continue. It did not occur to people that this apparent success was actually a very costly, destructive and wasteful exercise. That producing things to kill men and demolish property was nothing like the real market which had to careful manage scarce resources, not employ resources to destroy other resources in a negative sum game. Scientists from educational institutions have become used to state funding. These same scientists are as much a part of the fabric of the establishment as the politicians. The state sees the scientists as the golden goose which must be fed the best food and sheltered in the finest home.

 

The link between scientific institutions and the political system is just as strong as that between the state and crony business which buys itself power. The institutional scientists have become the equivalent of a modern day priesthood carrying out tasks for the rulers. Each year these scientists ask for more money for ever more abstract projects which hold the promise of a new kind of bomb, weapon, detection, or spy system. The state wants its advantage, the arms manufacturers want the product. No project is too strange that it might not hold out the possibility of the next Manhattan project, the next launch system or listening array.

[Marblehead]

It's not an absolute reality.

Well, once again I cannot disagree with you.

 

So vote for Jill Stein and change the system.

 

Oh!, never mind, you can't vote in the USA.

 

But you folks are still supporting your queen who has no function except for being queen.  Not that you need one.

 

Sure, the USA could make much better use of its resources by rebuilding and upgrading its infra-structure.  But it won't.  It seems it is more fun fighting wars and wasting the money.

 

Nothing has changed.  Same old shit.  Waste billions of dollars of resources so that someone's ego can get a boost.  And then they die just like anyone else.

 

But gravity is important.  It keeps us from falling off this flat Earth of ours.

[Karl]

Well, once again I cannot disagree with you.

 

So vote for Jill Stein and change the system.

 

Oh!, never mind, you can't vote in the USA.

 

But you folks are still supporting your queen who has no function except for being queen. Not that you need one.

 

Sure, the USA could make much better use of its resources by rebuilding and upgrading its infra-structure. But it won't. It seems it is more fun fighting wars and wasting the money.

 

Nothing has changed. Same old shit. Waste billions of dollars of resources so that someone's ego can get a boost. And then they die just like anyone else.

 

But gravity is important. It keeps us from falling off this flat Earth of ours.

The queen doesn't make a lot of sense to many of us either. However, if we didn't have her, then we would have to pay for a globe trotting, golf playing, playboy with a narcissistic streak as wide as the Pacific Ocean. At least the Queen doesn't have any powers.

 

I have to agree, Gravity is important, but luckily it's also abundant and therefore completely free. Which makes one wonder why we are paying so much to go look at a wave that has no effect on anything but the most highly sensitive laser array. It was possible to guess it was possible because every other force emits a field, so gravity should be no different. Basically it's billions of dollars of iron filings.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Karl