What is Dao?

[dwai]

Nice response/questions.  I will respond as best I can.

That's okay.  You have the right to disagree with me.  Of course, you will be naturally wrong if you do.

 

This is true but we really can't talk about Dao exclusively.  Remember, those who speak do not know and those who know do not speak.  Dao is undefinable.  However, we can talk about some of its characteristics.  That would be either De or the natural processes of the universe.

 

This is a discussion I have been in a number of times and it is always very difficult to express myself with only words.  But here goes:

 

Yes, humans are a part of the whole.  Yes, humans are a part of Dao.  Stop there.

 

The De of Dao (the entirety of the universe) is not based within human concepts.  The Way of Dao is based only within the processes of the universe.  The laws of physics, if you will.  Stars explode.  People don't.  Earth goes around the sun constantly; no variation.  Most people don't walk around in circles.  When people die in a tornado we feel regret for them.  Dao feels no regrets.

 

There is Dao and the way it functions, De.

 

Here's the hard part.  All aspects of the universe function within the limitations of possibilities of Dao.  A person who murders another is still operating within the limits of Dao.  If any action were not within the limits of Dao the action could never be performed.  So in such cases we must conclude that the person is following the Way of Dao.  However, They will not be following the way of man.  So this is to say that man has added more limiters to those of Dao.

 

The point of De is to understand some of the characteristics of Dao.  If we understand how something works we have a fuller understanding of that something than we would if we just used it and never tried to determine how it does what it does.

 

And that leads us to Ziran (Tzujan).  Ziran is a thing's naturalness.  To have a flat Earth would not be natural.  Therefore we would say that it is not being true to its own naturalness.  If a good person started doing very ugly things we would say that the person is not behaving naturally.

 

So, for the universe, it is natural for comets to occasionally collide with Earth.  But in most societies it would not be natural for people to start killing each other for no reason.

 

The De of Dao is basically the process of cause and effect.  There was a cause and we see the effect.  We might never see the cause.  Same with a human; we can observe what they do but we rarely know why they have done whatever.  But there surely was a cause.  And no, logic need not apply.

I posit that De is nothing but the Dao that is in us. It is the same as Dao (and not the literal "virtue" as many have interpreted it to be). The processes etc are all part of the 10,000 things. That is not the Dao. They are of the Dao, the Dao is not of them. Even if the 10,000 things, or the 3 or the 2 or 1 disappear, the Dao still remains.

 

There is no "De of Dao", the De is Dao. If we see a "de of Dao", then the Dao is not the real Dao, as it can be named and described

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

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"Question: is it the only possibility Lao Zi discussed or there is something else?"

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The Old Man knew that physicalization and de-physicalization (spiritualization) are mirror images.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[opendao]

Re:

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"Question: is it the only possibility Lao Zi discussed or there is something else?"

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The Old Man knew that physicalization and de-physicalization (spiritualization) are mirror images.

 

Right, they are opposite. 

Also, people can "loose Dao". How is it possible? How people can loose "Dao of physicalization"?

[Wu Ming Jen]

Opposites that contain each other they are related. only latter Greek philosophy puts opposites as not related and hostile to each other, nature continually disproves this..

 

Conditioned mind sends the shinning mind of tao to the bottom of consciousness and the internal government become corrupt.

 

Open Tao that is a good description of the imagless because it contains all things it is round and open.

[vonkrankenhaus]

Re:

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"How people can loose "Dao of physicalization"?"

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I submit as evidence the entirety of modern civilization.

 

"losing Tao" would be like "losing the way" or "losing their way".

 

Which seems to be the goal of all modern "progress".

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[Marblehead]

Right, they are opposite. 

Also, people can "loose Dao". How is it possible? How people can loose "Dao of physicalization"?

That is why I prefer "Way" instead of "Dao".  True that people cannot lose Dao.  But we can loose the Way.  We can even lose our self.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Marblehead

[opendao]

That is why I prefer "Way" instead of "Dao".  True that people cannot lose Dao.  But we can loose the Way.  We can even lose our self.

 

People can loose Dao and they do it quite often... See DDJ.

[Marblehead]

People can loose Dao and they do it quite often... See DDJ.

Yes, I know.  But still ...

[Junko]

Dao is philosophy.

[dawei]

Dao gave birth to One,

One gave birth to Two,

Two gave birth to Three,

Three gave birth to the Ten Thousand Things.

 

 

I am, of course, remembering that One was Singularity.  Dao gave birth to Singularity.  In other words, the De of Dao caused Singularity to exist even though it was only One, undifferentiated.

 

One had to give birth to Two before things really started happening.

 

Dao=Way or Guide or Principle [as basis and to follow]

 

Put that together as:  Guiding Principle or The Way to Follow

 

I've always appreciated your insistence on these above verses which distinguish Dao from Singularity as it is a good reminder that Dao is not the Singularity and does not exist. 

 

Thus what one can 'lose' is being at one with the guiding principle... 

[Bindi]

Dao=Way or Guide or Principle [as basis and to follow]

 

Put that together as:  Guiding Principle or The Way to Follow

 

I've always appreciated your insistence on these above verses which distinguish Dao from Singularity as it is a good reminder that Dao is not the Singularity and does not exist. 

 

Thus what one can 'lose' is being at one with the guiding principle... 

 

Can you still be following Dao if you're not following Daoism? 

[Marblehead]

Dao is philosophy.

Yes, its that too.

[Marblehead]

Put that together as:  Guiding Principle or The Way to Follow

I like that.

[Marblehead]

Can you still be following Dao if you're not following Daoism? 

 

Good question.  My answer is, "Yes".

 

I had my first Taoist (Oneness) experience before I ever knew the word "Dao" existed.

 

Man's creations (religion and philosophy) are secondary to the creations of Dao.

[dawei]

Can you still be following Dao if you're not following Daoism? 

 

I would say yes in the sense that nothing separates us from the guiding principle.  

 

Flowing Hands Transmission:

 

23:

When you are at one with the Dao, the Dao welcomes you.

When you are at one with virtue, virtue is always there in your heart.

When you are at one with loss, loss is experienced willingly.

 

 

CHAPTER 26

When one is full of Dao, there is stillness and peace.

When one is empty of Dao, there is disorder and unrest.

The Sage resides forever in stillness and peace, therefore he is full of Dao.

Though there are beautiful things all around him, he remains at one and unattached.

When there is disorder and unrest, the Dao is lost; stillness and peace give way to loss of control.

 

32:

Once things are broken up and divided, the whole is lost.

Then the parts are given names.

When things are given names, their purpose in the whole structure is lost.

Men should avoid giving things too many names, and look more closely at the whole.

For the Ten Thousand Things are part of one on-going, flowing structure. Men are part of this also.

 

38:

Confusion always arises when the Dao is lost, people then must find something to replace it.

 

66:

Why is it that man always turns away from his natural path?

Because he has lost his uniformity and balance with nature.

 

74:

Man has lost his link with nature, he has made too many laws,

[Bindi]

I think yes as well, the natural path will correspond with Dao. Is neidan the expression of Dao?

[opendao]

Flowing Hands Transmission:

 

...

 

66:

Why is it that man always turns away from his natural path?

Because he has lost his uniformity and balance with nature.

 

74:

Man has lost his link with nature, he has made too many laws,

 

it's not a transmission, but misinterpretations of mistranslations.

 

I think yes as well, the natural path will correspond with Dao. Is neidan the expression of Dao?

 

There is Human Dao (Ren Dao) and Celestial Dao (Tian Dao).

 

Being one with the natural principle of things is Human Dao, that's what Dawei tries to be one with. 

 

To lost Dao is to lost Human Dao first of all. It means people stop following the changes of Nature, they lost something what allows them to do it. It's not a philosophy principle or some mind concept though.

 

Neidan is just another name for Celestial Dao, and Lao Zi's Great Dao is not the same as Human Dao. Moreover, it's totally opposite.

 

So what is the Celestial Dao then? What realy Daoism teaches to follow? There are clear definitions in Dao De Jing, but people prefer to sing same songs about being one with nature...

Edited February 27, 2016 by opendao

[dawei]

it's not a transmission, but misinterpretations of mistranslations.

 

that could be a misinterpretation.

 

There is Human Dao (Ren Dao) and Celestial Dao (Tian Dao).

 

Being one with the natural principle of things is Human Dao, that's what Dawei tries to be one with. 

 

To lost Dao is to lost Human Dao. It means people stop following the changes of Nature, they lost something what allows them to do it. It's not a philosophy principle or some mind concept though.

 

Neidan is just another name for Celestial Dao, and Lao Zi's Great Dao is not the same as Human Dao. Moreover, it's totally opposite.

 

So what is the Celestial Dao then? What realy Daoism teaches to follow? There are clear definitions in Dao De Jing, but people prefer to sing same songs about being one with nature...

 

They are one and the same.  To separate them is simply to give a nod to dualistic thinking.   A person's level of clarity, realization, and connection will have an affect.

 

The question I got was more from one where nature is understood. 

[dawei]

I think yes as well, the natural path will correspond with Dao. Is neidan the expression of Dao?

 

It is a Way towards an understanding of the true self and Dao.  

 

It is but one of 10,000 Ways.  

 

Some follow natural ways.  Practice is a forceful way but the most common.

 

I find you follow a more natural way but a prescribed path... more a middle way.

[opendao]

that could be a misinterpretation.

 

it could be if it wouldn't be a mistranslation.

 

They are one and the same.  To separate them is simply to give a nod to dualistic thinking.   A person's level of clarity, realization, and connection will have an affect.

 

no, Lao Zi clearly says they are not the same (DDJ 77). There is an important difference. In Neidan texts it's discussed in details as well. It's not Dao that dual, but the relation between humans and Dao. See the difference? The road can be one, but directions are opposite.

[dawei]

no, Lao Zi clearly says they are not the same (DDJ 77). There is an important difference. In Neidan texts it's discussed in details as well. It's not Dao that dual, but the relation between humans and Dao. See the difference? The road can be one, but directions are opposite.

 

Sorry to hear that interpretation.  The Sage is a man and is mentioned as well... as following Dao.   That is what I commented on.

[opendao]

Sorry to hear that interpretation.  The Sage is a man and is mentioned as well... as following Dao.   That is what I commented on.

 

no, sage is not an ordinary man and doesn't follow humans Dao. Again wrong direction. Let's step back.

 

There is human Dao and celestial Dao. Lao Zi sometimes named them clearly, sometimes only the context can help to distinguish. Anyway, Daoism teaches how to follow the Celestial Dao, not the mortal road of men.

[dawei]

no, sage is not an ordinary man and doesn't follow humans Dao. Again wrong direction. Let's step back.

 

There is human Dao and celestial Dao. Lao Zi sometimes named them clearly, sometimes only the context can help to distinguish. Anyway, Daoism teaches how to follow the Celestial Dao, not the mortal road of men.

 

Carry on as you want.  LZ was born a human.  His past life, like all of us, accumulates something... of human existence... like each of us.  The accumulation does finally effect something in each of us...  That is when it gets really interesting... no more "following" is needed...

[Marblehead]

They are one and the same.  To separate them is simply to give a nod to dualistic thinking.

That's actually a valid thought although very difficult to comprehend and even more difficult to live according to.

[Marblehead]

There is human Dao and celestial Dao. Lao Zi sometimes named them clearly, sometimes only the context can help to distinguish. Anyway, Daoism teaches how to follow the Celestial Dao, not the mortal road of men.

I understand this differently.  I believe you are speaking of De.  Yes, there is human De and Celestial De.  I think it is an error to suggest that there is human Dao.  This feeds back to the concept of not trying to reify Dao.