Britain and the European Union

[Chang]

It is interesting that no one in the thread has yet spoken out in favour of the European Union.

 

[Karl]

I don't agree because as I said above I think it revolves around the person of the monarch.

 

I won't disagree with that, I just think that practically it would be a none starter. The same thing must have occurred when we signed up to Europe, so I expect it will be the same if we cut the ties.

[Brian]

Curious, I think, how frequently well-intentioned "left-wing" democratic socialist pipedreams turn into coercive plutocratic bureaucracies as the wheels start to come off the wagon. The ideological supporters seem invariably to then claim these aren't valid examples because the design principles weren't maintained.

 

Someone close to me says, "But it is such a good idea that we have to keep trying."

[Apech]

Curious, I think, how frequently well-intentioned "left-wing" democratic socialist pipedreams turn into coercive plutocratic bureaucracies as the wheels start to come off the wagon. The ideological supporters seem invariably to then claim these aren't valid examples because the design principles weren't maintained.

 

Someone close to me says, "But it is such a good idea that we have to keep trying."

 

 

You have to remember the dialectic - things change, adapt and so in response to different causes and conditions.

[Chang]

You have to remember the dialectic - things change, adapt and so in response to different causes and conditions.

 

Exactly. And this is what the pipe dreaming idealist forgets.

[Brian]

You have to remember the dialectic - things change, adapt and so in response to different causes and conditions.

Absolutely. This is why planned economies and strong central governance invariably collapse into some mix of heartache and feudalism. Attempting to manipulate any highly complex and poorly understood dynamic system leads to unanticipated consequences which then need to be regulated and manipulated in turn.

 

We see the same thing happen in pharmacopoeia -- drugs have side-effects which call for treatment with other drugs. Lather, rinse, repeat. At one point, my mother was on 13 different prescriptions daily and she kept developing new symptoms.

[idquest]

How much tax does UK have to remit to centralized EU bodies?

 

There was a reference to UK-USA and USA civil war. If I remember correctly, in both cases the underlining issue was tax payable to a superior. Of course the wrap up was all that ethics and morals...

[Karl]

How much tax does UK have to remit to centralized EU bodies?

 

There was a reference to UK-USA and USA civil war. If I remember correctly, in both cases the underlining issue was tax payable to a superior. Of course the wrap up was all that ethics and morals...

 

A subject of much debate. The reason is that we receive EU funding back to projects and industries. A lot of people baulk at this action, because this money comes back wrapped in a starry flag. They don't realise that this is the way all taxation works, it's just with Europe we do see it as explicit, labelled bundles from a non elected bureaucracy.

 

It's a pity we didn't have a referendum which offered to lock us into Europe and dissolve the UK government completely. That's essentially what we are doing now, but our Government machinery insists on being the middle man and claiming wages for doing so.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Karl

[Chang]

Edited February 19, 2016 by Chang

[Chang]

And here is a few figures from 2014.

 

David Cameron appeared as shocked as the rest of us by the news that the European Commission has charged the UK with a whopping €2.1bn (£1.7bn) bill.

The EU Commission is demanding the UK make the extra contribution to the EU budget due to the relative health of the country’s economy in comparison to the rest of its member states.

Yesterday David Cameron was scathing in his criticism of the EU Commission's conduct. He insisted he “won’t be paying” a bill he described as “not acceptable”. 

Not only is the UK being asked to stump up more cash than any other nation, but other large EU economies such as France and Germany will be the beneficiaries, receiving rebates of €1bn and €779m respectively.

The map below shows the biggest winners and losers in the EU Commission’s recalculated budget contributions. Minus figures indicate those countries tasked with additional payments, positive indicates a rebate.

[Brian]

How much tax does UK have to remit to centralized EU bodies?

 

There was a reference to UK-USA and USA civil war. If I remember correctly, in both cases the underlining issue was tax payable to a superior. Of course the wrap up was all that ethics and morals...

The colonial declaration of independence is often presented as being based on taxation without representation but this is a gross and self-serving simplification taught by the government. Here's what the document actually says:

The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

 

 

The attempt by some States a few generations later to reclaim their own independence was really based on breach of contract. South Carolina, in particular, had been calling for adherence to rule of law since the 1820s. By the election of 1860, the issue came to a head -- the newly formed Republican Party proudly announced their intention to ignore rule of law and were actually conducting dress rehearsals for their coming march south with torches and swords once they took the White House. When Lincoln was elected (without bothering to be on the ballot in many Southern states), South Carolina said, "We're out."

 

A peaceful transfer of Federal assets to South Carolina control was nearly complete under President James Buchanan when Abraham Lincoln was inaugurated. He then proclaimed that the citizens of South Carolina didn't have the right to leave the Union.

[Karl]

And here is a few figures from 2014.

 

David Cameron appeared as shocked as the rest of us by the news that the European Commission has charged the UK with a whopping €2.1bn (£1.7bn) bill.

The EU Commission is demanding the UK make the extra contribution to the EU budget due to the relative health of the country’s economy in comparison to the rest of its member states.

Yesterday David Cameron was scathing in his criticism of the EU Commission's conduct. He insisted he “won’t be paying” a bill he described as “not acceptable”. 

Not only is the UK being asked to stump up more cash than any other nation, but other large EU economies such as France and Germany will be the beneficiaries, receiving rebates of €1bn and €779m respectively.

The map below shows the biggest winners and losers in the EU Commission’s recalculated budget contributions. Minus figures indicate those countries tasked with additional payments, positive indicates a rebate.

 

They made a big song and dance out of not paying that bill last year, then, quietly, under the radar they paid it anyway. No one said a thing.

[Brian]

From each according to their means?

[Chang]

They made a big song and dance out of not paying that bill last year, then, quietly, under the radar they paid it anyway. No one said a thing.

 

This is generally the way things work. At present we have a constant swirl of the gallant Cameron in conference with various heads of state, looking determined and defending the interests of Britain. I simply see a weak and pathetic posh boy trying to work out how he will hoodwink the electorate into doing what he wants.

 

As far as camerons affair with the E.U. goes it's a case of one man, many masters.

[Chang]

From each according to their means?

 And to each according to their needs. The E.U. is certainly socialist in that respect.

[dust]

I don't care either way.

 

 

 

A very well presented statement of the facts.

 

Like I said, I don't care either way. But I do care something for honesty.

 

What Karl wrote was speculation, not fact.

[Basher]

Interesting point, looking at the Map.

How are Norway doing ?

As they appear to be outside of the EU !

[zerostao]

i dont see brexit as being similar to the american civil war. i look at like as more like karl suggests, similar to when england broke away from the pope

i did tune in to watch a parliament session last week and that session was dominated by the scotland questions, about the falling price of oil, etc

i see this as corporatism in its full glory, the super state , too big to fail idea. the banksters calling the shots.

uk has kept its own currency at least.

i have not given much attention to this---but it is a big deal 

from my view it seems that the EU is facing all kinds of internal pressures.

a leading polish magazine last week cover story had a white woman being gang attacked by islamist gang members.

is the uk just considering leaving the EU and will remain NATO ?

and NATO, if the turks do go into syria to hunt down the kurds that almost assuredly begins a turk/russ war

and all of NATO including the uk and us must defend the turks?

i know i didnt really contribute to the conversation, i think it is just 2016 and i am not privy to what the banksters have in store for us all

[Chang]

Interesting point, looking at the Map.

How are Norway doing ?

As they appear to be outside of the EU !

 

Although Norway is not a member state of the European Union (EU), it is closely associated with the Union through its membership in the European Economic Area (EEA), in the context of being a European Free Trade Association (EFTA) member.

 

[Karl]

i dont see brexit as being similar to the american civil war. i look at like as more like karl suggests, similar to when england broke away from the pope

i did tune in to watch a parliament session last week and that session was dominated by the scotland questions, about the falling price of oil, etc

i see this as corporatism in its full glory, the super state , too big to fail idea. the banksters calling the shots.

uk has kept its own currency at least.

i have not given much attention to this---but it is a big deal 

from my view it seems that the EU is facing all kinds of internal pressures.

a leading polish magazine last week cover story had a white woman being gang attacked by islamist gang members.

is the uk just considering leaving the EU and will remain NATO ?

and NATO, if the turks do go into syria to hunt down the kurds that almost assuredly begins a turk/russ war

and all of NATO including the uk and us must defend the turks?

i know i didnt really contribute to the conversation, i think it is just 2016 and i am not privy to what the banksters have in store for us all

 

I don't think we would ever consider leaving NATO, although you do have to wonder if NATO is even relevant today.

[Karl]

This is generally the way things work. At present we have a constant swirl of the gallant Cameron in conference with various heads of state, looking determined and defending the interests of Britain. I simply see a weak and pathetic posh boy trying to work out how he will hoodwink the electorate into doing what he wants.

 

As far as camerons affair with the E.U. goes it's a case of one man, many masters.

 

Peter Hitchins 'the Conservative government is the best Government the hedge funds could buy'.

[Karl]

I don't care either way.

 

 

 

 

 

Like I said, I don't care either way. But I do care something for honesty.

 

What Karl wrote was speculation, not fact.

 

Funnily enough, just hot off the press on ZH

 

Prime Minister Cameron is an annoyance for the already struggling EMU. The European Monetary Union faces extreme difficulties, as on one hand further integration of the Euro countries is inevitable and on the other hand, the widespread support for this integration is eroding.

 

In 2011, French President Sarkozy told Cameron:”We’re sick of you criticizing us and telling us what to do. You say you hate the euro, you didn’t want to join, and now you want to interfere in our meetings,”. The EMU countries face a big political problem that is to be solved. Germany and France will never let countries outside the EMU have a say in their affairs as Cameron proposed. The diplomatic words from French Prime Minister Manuel Valls make it all clear to London as he said; “a Brexit is a shock for Europe but still members can not pick and choose rules that suit them”. The UK leaving the European Union will make life easier for Paris and Berlin as Figaro writes: “Brexit? An opportunity for Europe, for France and for Paris”

When the UK is outside the European Union Frankfurt and Paris will have more opportunities to crush London as a financial center. London could not miss Merkel’s warning against gains for British banks under ‘Brexit’. If the UK decides to leave, Berlin and Paris will do definitely more than prevent London banks from making any gain; they will do everything to establish Paris or Frankfurt as the financial center of the EMU at London’s expense.

 

With the UK outside the European Union and losing all its influence on the continent, Frankfurt will be able to force its will on euro transactions that are done in London. We have already seen how Washington forced its jurisdiction on European banks. In 2006 European banks were prohibited from making dollar transaction with Cuba, despite the fact that these transactions were regarded as entirely legal in Europe. French, German and Dutch banks were forced to retreat from Cuba and pay hefty fines or else they would have had to leave the US. Frankfurt and Europe can impose similar rules on banks in London and force them to comply or leave the EMU area. Some in London, like top diplomats are already aware of this as Sir Nigel Sheinwald, Sir John Grant and Sir Stephen Wall, warn that rival financial powerhouses, as Paris and Frankfurt, will not be sentimental in seeking to challenge the City’s prominence, if the referendum result is to leave the EU.

 

 

 

Sheinwald, Grant and Wall are three of the bureaucrats that have been part of the elite for many years and are the British part of Davos. I have quite a list and many connections that I put together last year. Amazing how the Networks run. As I said, this is about banking and in time it will become clear to more people.

[Apech]

Looks like they got a deal.

[Karl]

Looks like they got a deal.

 

I shall feign surprise

[Apech]

I shall feign surprise

 

Now we can all relax and get on with life.